Qantas To The Middle East.Why Not?
EK/QF Codeshare
Back in the 90's, when Ek first started MEL-SIN-DXB, they codeshared with QF. Unfortunately when it came to renew the agreement, there was a slight disagreement, and QF was rebuffed.
History since then speaks for itself.
History since then speaks for itself.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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I would have thought QF would be able to get back into Bahrain without much trouble, now that GF is just a Bahrain owned airline?
I was very surprised when QF pulled out of Athens, presumably very little premium traffic? Same with Rome?
I was very surprised when QF pulled out of Athens, presumably very little premium traffic? Same with Rome?
Nunc est bibendum
The Athens decision years ago has to do with the bi-lateral agreement with the Greek government. The way I understood it was that the Greek government set the fares as well as the number of seats and thus Olympic would always be cheaper than QF. That could be urban myth but Athens has barely rated a mention in QF talk since the mid '90s for various reasons. As you say, a high rate of VFR traffic (and thus low yield) probably played a large part also.
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I work with QF myself and have heard that they will be starting a 747 service to bah (bahrain) then a shuttle service to auh (abu dhabi). this will compete with the likes of Qatar which start flying to syd in nov. Also no other carriers fly to aus from bahrain.
Plenty of passengers of Middle Eastern origin in the western suburbs of Sydney. Trouble is many of them hate Australia and all it stands for.
They'd probably travel on ANYOTHER Airlines before QF.
They'd probably travel on ANYOTHER Airlines before QF.
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Skybed,
If they could fill a shuttle service's hold with freight, it might work; EK run around the Gulf with wide-bodies because (as they've said) they'll happily run a 777 with no pax if they can fill the hold.
EK make $$$ because they are at a hub point - their original plan was to be the main carrier between Europe (especially the UK) and the subcontinent. They knew that Air India and PIA would never be able to offer (and fill) direct services between lots of their cities and lots of places in Europe - but if you hub in Dubai, then Robert's your mother's brother.
Their business model has expanded as aircraft ranges have increased. But don't forget, there's a reason they've earmarked most of their planned A380s not to have first class. And that reason is that we'll never see those airframes further from Dubai than the subcontinent.
So... all this talk about Qantas going to the ME is looking at one route this side of Dubai, and one route out the other. Which probably won't yield enough.
Would it perhaps not be better to play them a bit at their own game and use Dubai as an alliance hub - that is, QF and CX fly in on one side, and meet Iberia, BA and Finnair services on the other side, through to more than just Madrid, London and Helsinki - use the EU freedoms to operate between Dubai and ports outside their home countries. So if I want to go from Sydney to say Stockholm using oneworld, rather than go through Singapore and either Helsinki or London, I could run QF to Dubai and change to a Finnair.
I could do just that now with Emirates.
Or, get a Gulf carrier into OW and use them to do all the European city runs.
But this won't happen...
If they could fill a shuttle service's hold with freight, it might work; EK run around the Gulf with wide-bodies because (as they've said) they'll happily run a 777 with no pax if they can fill the hold.
EK make $$$ because they are at a hub point - their original plan was to be the main carrier between Europe (especially the UK) and the subcontinent. They knew that Air India and PIA would never be able to offer (and fill) direct services between lots of their cities and lots of places in Europe - but if you hub in Dubai, then Robert's your mother's brother.
Their business model has expanded as aircraft ranges have increased. But don't forget, there's a reason they've earmarked most of their planned A380s not to have first class. And that reason is that we'll never see those airframes further from Dubai than the subcontinent.
So... all this talk about Qantas going to the ME is looking at one route this side of Dubai, and one route out the other. Which probably won't yield enough.
Would it perhaps not be better to play them a bit at their own game and use Dubai as an alliance hub - that is, QF and CX fly in on one side, and meet Iberia, BA and Finnair services on the other side, through to more than just Madrid, London and Helsinki - use the EU freedoms to operate between Dubai and ports outside their home countries. So if I want to go from Sydney to say Stockholm using oneworld, rather than go through Singapore and either Helsinki or London, I could run QF to Dubai and change to a Finnair.
I could do just that now with Emirates.
Or, get a Gulf carrier into OW and use them to do all the European city runs.
But this won't happen...
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A rumour!
I'm just pleased to see some actual rumours in this thread. I love a good rumour!
How about Melbourne - Broome - Athens while we're at it? A bit of work to improve the facilities at Broome, but no need to make an intermediate stop in some other country. (OK, I apologise for my rumour quality, maybe someone can think up some better rumours?)
;-)
How about Melbourne - Broome - Athens while we're at it? A bit of work to improve the facilities at Broome, but no need to make an intermediate stop in some other country. (OK, I apologise for my rumour quality, maybe someone can think up some better rumours?)
;-)
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If a stop in the Middle East is just somewhere for passengers to buy a postcard, why not Dubai, or there is good old Bahrain, which worked quite well for many years for Qantas. In fact which ever airport gives a good deal for fuel and handling charges.
My experience as a passenger, when I get out at Singapore, HK or KL (I have not done BKK) is that very few of my fellow passengers are getting out. They hang around the terminal and go straight to London, UK. They may buy souvenirs.
Bahrain or Abu Dhabi do have an advantage that Qantas just might sell a few local seats from there to London, and some of those seats might be in the First Class part of the plane, so nice bit of pocket money for Qantas.
My experience as a passenger, when I get out at Singapore, HK or KL (I have not done BKK) is that very few of my fellow passengers are getting out. They hang around the terminal and go straight to London, UK. They may buy souvenirs.
Bahrain or Abu Dhabi do have an advantage that Qantas just might sell a few local seats from there to London, and some of those seats might be in the First Class part of the plane, so nice bit of pocket money for Qantas.
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I've been staying out of this but.....
The gulf carriers, Etihad, Qatar, Emirates, have a substantial market into Europe.
Australian Governments of all persuasions, cheerfully give away traffic rights to foreign carriers to promote tourism. They certainly don't protect Australian, or Kiwi carriers.
So, with modern, long range aircraft a gulf carrier can offer one-stop service to a myriad European destinations. Think IST, ATH, ROM, MAD, PAR, MAN, DUB...the list goes on. Very attractive to some Australians.
QF and Virgin (whether Atlantic or not), can only make sense of hubs based on SIN, KUL,BKK,HKG, where you can feed people in from all Australian ports, most of whom get off at the hub port, but enough go on to LHR or FRA to make the hub effective.
QF don't do Middle East because it makes no economic sense.
But codeshare with Etihad does make sense.
The gulf carriers, Etihad, Qatar, Emirates, have a substantial market into Europe.
Australian Governments of all persuasions, cheerfully give away traffic rights to foreign carriers to promote tourism. They certainly don't protect Australian, or Kiwi carriers.
So, with modern, long range aircraft a gulf carrier can offer one-stop service to a myriad European destinations. Think IST, ATH, ROM, MAD, PAR, MAN, DUB...the list goes on. Very attractive to some Australians.
QF and Virgin (whether Atlantic or not), can only make sense of hubs based on SIN, KUL,BKK,HKG, where you can feed people in from all Australian ports, most of whom get off at the hub port, but enough go on to LHR or FRA to make the hub effective.
QF don't do Middle East because it makes no economic sense.
But codeshare with Etihad does make sense.
Qantas To The Middle East.Why Not?
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EK/QF Codeshare
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in the 90's, when Ek first started MEL-SIN-DXB, they codeshared with QF. Unfortunately when it came to renew the agreement, there was a slight disagreement, and QF was rebuffed.
History since then speaks for itself.
Not quite ... EK approached QF to do a code-share, but QF basically laughed in their face, dismissing them as some small fry carrier from the sandpit. Look who is laughing now !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in the 90's, when Ek first started MEL-SIN-DXB, they codeshared with QF. Unfortunately when it came to renew the agreement, there was a slight disagreement, and QF was rebuffed.
History since then speaks for itself.
Not quite ... EK approached QF to do a code-share, but QF basically laughed in their face, dismissing them as some small fry carrier from the sandpit. Look who is laughing now !!
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Qantas will go to the Middle East only if they can continue on to London and these services are daily.
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What sort of dinosaur thinking is it to only fly a route people want and to do it daily for convenience and efficiently?
More dinosaur to fly a route not many wish for, occasionally so even less use it?
More dinosaur to fly a route not many wish for, occasionally so even less use it?
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More dinosaur to fly a route not many wish for,
Oz is at the 'end of the line". QF is not in a position to hub. At least it could carry the pax to the hub (and direct to the destinations it can reach from oz, of course {which appears to be the orange bit of the game}). It may have a future doing that. But sticking to the SY- LHR thinking? Can't see a big future in that.
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My point exactly!
We are not a hub, therefore we need to fly people to where they wish to go!
That is not the ME!!! We hub in Singapore, rightly or wrongly! I agree we should go to more destinations in Europe but how many EK Australian and European customers actually want to go to the ME?
We have a large Lebanese community in Australia and should probably fly there, but perhaps not Dubai.
We are not a hub, therefore we need to fly people to where they wish to go!
That is not the ME!!! We hub in Singapore, rightly or wrongly! I agree we should go to more destinations in Europe but how many EK Australian and European customers actually want to go to the ME?
We have a large Lebanese community in Australia and should probably fly there, but perhaps not Dubai.
Who says it will be QF hubbing through the Middle East?
On another thread Joyce is sprouting about Rome, Milan and Athens for Jetstar.
My money is on the later.
halas
On another thread Joyce is sprouting about Rome, Milan and Athens for Jetstar.
My money is on the later.
halas