Merged: AFAP and the Mutual Benefit Fund
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Maui
Remember a few years ago Convention was held in Geelong and again last year??This was because they, (AFAP), were a little tight for cash to pay for it in Melbourne so my "cash strapped" comment stands.
I guess they will need an overdraft to proceed with the threatened legal action against their own members!!
As for your rant on the conflict of interest element of the vote,the result would indicate that the members could see the need to eliminate that particular conflict.
The crap that has exuded from the AFAP in this affair is disgraceful and embarrassing.The time is nigh to dispense with those that were responsible and get some new talent.
Remember a few years ago Convention was held in Geelong and again last year??This was because they, (AFAP), were a little tight for cash to pay for it in Melbourne so my "cash strapped" comment stands.
I guess they will need an overdraft to proceed with the threatened legal action against their own members!!
As for your rant on the conflict of interest element of the vote,the result would indicate that the members could see the need to eliminate that particular conflict.
The crap that has exuded from the AFAP in this affair is disgraceful and embarrassing.The time is nigh to dispense with those that were responsible and get some new talent.
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Union
Sheesh... if this is the way we as a group solve our problems, it's little wonder that our pay and entitlements continue to be eroded.
Why is it that we pilots are so parochial and emotive when we are trying to get anything done?
Until we wake up to ourselves and start negotiating with each other, (and more generally) our employers and other stakeholders in the industry in good faith and a willingness to compromise to real solutions we're going to keep going backwards.
I only recently joined AFAP so I could get access to the MBF, but because of all this bickering the MBF CAN'T process new applications! Might as well find LOL somewhere else and relinquish my AFAP membership for all the good it's doing me.
Check your egos at the door people and let's get busy being productive for a change.
Why is it that we pilots are so parochial and emotive when we are trying to get anything done?
Until we wake up to ourselves and start negotiating with each other, (and more generally) our employers and other stakeholders in the industry in good faith and a willingness to compromise to real solutions we're going to keep going backwards.
I only recently joined AFAP so I could get access to the MBF, but because of all this bickering the MBF CAN'T process new applications! Might as well find LOL somewhere else and relinquish my AFAP membership for all the good it's doing me.
Check your egos at the door people and let's get busy being productive for a change.
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When I ring the AFAP and ask why my EBA is 16 months overdue, why we have been strongly encouraged away from industrial action, why we have been screwed on profit share and share gift, and why I'm getting paid way below industry standard, the standard response from the AFAP is:
You need to be united.
When I get bickering letters and emails and ballot forms every friggin day from the AFAP vs MBF saga, my advice is this:
Stop wasting my AFAP and MBF fees on this bull
. Stop telling me "you need unity" when you obviously can't even do that yourselves. Start spending your time and money and paper and postage stamps on representing ME and my colleagues who are getting screwed on terms and conditions.
Get your together AFAP. Keep this up, you are going to be another member down.
You need to be united.
When I get bickering letters and emails and ballot forms every friggin day from the AFAP vs MBF saga, my advice is this:
Stop wasting my AFAP and MBF fees on this bull
. Stop telling me "you need unity" when you obviously can't even do that yourselves. Start spending your time and money and paper and postage stamps on representing ME and my colleagues who are getting screwed on terms and conditions.Get your
together AFAP. Keep this up, you are going to be another member down.
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SU:
SU you have obviously missed the point or do not understand that YOUR Union is you and every other flight crew member who is a member of YOUR Union.
History vividly illustrates that many who protest loudly how poorly they have been represented or served by THEIR Union that there are two sides to every story and all is not as the protester would have others believe.
The vociferous protesters have usually contributed little, if not nothing, to their union or fellow flight crew members.
SU, if your conscience is clear you would be better being part of your local committee, active within the union, achieving something, doing something positive and constructive rather than wasting your time with un-constructive, puerile rants in a public forum.
As a wise old Captain said many, many years ago; Bar talk can be highly entertaining but achieves very little!
DK
when you obviously can't even do that yourselves
History vividly illustrates that many who protest loudly how poorly they have been represented or served by THEIR Union that there are two sides to every story and all is not as the protester would have others believe.
The vociferous protesters have usually contributed little, if not nothing, to their union or fellow flight crew members.
SU, if your conscience is clear you would be better being part of your local committee, active within the union, achieving something, doing something positive and constructive rather than wasting your time with un-constructive, puerile rants in a public forum.
As a wise old Captain said many, many years ago; Bar talk can be highly entertaining but achieves very little!
DK
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Hear Hear Dark Knight
SU, you can't say "YOU" about the AFAP or indeed any other union when it's only "WE". Are you a member of your pilot council or negotiating team? Do you talk to them often? That's what unity is.....not waiting for "OTHERS" to look after "YOU".
The MBF is a classic example of "Pilots helping pilots". It was set up by the AFAP (though over the objections of the Qantas pilots at that time) so that AFAP members could get good pilot-managed loss of licence cover. Nothing has changed. It is for AFAP members. If the membership of the AFAP ever wanted to widen the franchise to a wider group that would be a matter for the AFAP and it's MBF members and them alone. That is not a decision that the MBF board or indeed any other group or individual to make unilaterally.
As for the voting system that limits the number of pilots from any airline group that certainly needs to be addressed. And as for the role of the AFAP as trustee....for 40 years I have always believed (and seen in action) that the AFAP was morally the trustee of the Fund it set up....again, nothing has changed.
I have worked my whole career happy knowing that if anything happened to me or my job then my family would be looked after, courtesy of the fund started by the AFAP for its members. To those who set up the MBF and those who keep the "Pilots helping pilots" flame burning.....Thanks
SU, you can't say "YOU" about the AFAP or indeed any other union when it's only "WE". Are you a member of your pilot council or negotiating team? Do you talk to them often? That's what unity is.....not waiting for "OTHERS" to look after "YOU".
The MBF is a classic example of "Pilots helping pilots". It was set up by the AFAP (though over the objections of the Qantas pilots at that time) so that AFAP members could get good pilot-managed loss of licence cover. Nothing has changed. It is for AFAP members. If the membership of the AFAP ever wanted to widen the franchise to a wider group that would be a matter for the AFAP and it's MBF members and them alone. That is not a decision that the MBF board or indeed any other group or individual to make unilaterally.
As for the voting system that limits the number of pilots from any airline group that certainly needs to be addressed. And as for the role of the AFAP as trustee....for 40 years I have always believed (and seen in action) that the AFAP was morally the trustee of the Fund it set up....again, nothing has changed.
I have worked my whole career happy knowing that if anything happened to me or my job then my family would be looked after, courtesy of the fund started by the AFAP for its members. To those who set up the MBF and those who keep the "Pilots helping pilots" flame burning.....Thanks
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The vociferous protesters have usually contributed little, if not nothing, to their union or fellow flight crew members.
SU, if your conscience is clear you would be better being part of your local committee, active within the union, achieving something, doing something positive and constructive rather than wasting your time with un-constructive, puerile rants in a public forum.
SU, you can't say "YOU" about the AFAP or indeed any other union when it's only "WE".
Are you a member of your pilot council or negotiating team?
Do you talk to them often?
That's what unity is.....not waiting for "OTHERS" to look after "YOU".
The union is only partly the sum of its members. Its also the AFAP staff like legals, negotiators, industrial staff, technical staff and clerical staff. All of whom are employed by me and my fellow pilots.
And before you ask, I've been both an AFAP and MBF member for some twenty years.
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rmcdonal
Instead of an unverified, unjustified whinge here why don't you ring them and ask them?
When you have done this (called both the MBF & AFAP) and have an answer, pass the reason on.
Then we will be able to pass an educated judgment & comments whether your rant is justified, whether you are just another bitter & twisted whinger or perhaps an AIPA stooge!
DK
ps>>they may even be able to resolve the issue for you: found both extremely helpful and efficient in the past.
Instead of an unverified, unjustified whinge here why don't you ring them and ask them?
When you have done this (called both the MBF & AFAP) and have an answer, pass the reason on.
Then we will be able to pass an educated judgment & comments whether your rant is justified, whether you are just another bitter & twisted whinger or perhaps an AIPA stooge!
DK
ps>>they may even be able to resolve the issue for you: found both extremely helpful and efficient in the past.
Instead of an unverified, unjustified whinge here why don't you ring them and ask them?
When you have done this (called both the MBF & AFAP) and have an answer, pass the reason on.
When you have done this (called both the MBF & AFAP) and have an answer, pass the reason on.
We apologise to any Federation member or prospective member who have been attempting to join the Mutual Benefit Fund for Loss of Licence coverage.
Many of you have contacted us but it is a matter that is outside the Federation's control and no reason has been received as to why membership is currently being declined.
Many of you have contacted us but it is a matter that is outside the Federation's control and no reason has been received as to why membership is currently being declined.
I did call, AFAP fairly well said what their message above says. And the MBF have yet to pick up (by the way the old number is 03 9928 5700, and it no longer works. The new number is 03 9928 4500).
My comment was a question, you can judge that all you like but it is still a question.
As for whinging, I haven’t even started yet.
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rmcdonal
Would have thought the message was self explanatory to a AFAP member who was attempting to join the MBF?
Normally one contacts the organisation one is attempting to join? (do you go to the butchers for your Bread?)
Now you have the new MBF number call them and apply to join.
Seems fairly simple to me.
Let us know how you go.
DK
Would have thought the message was self explanatory to a AFAP member who was attempting to join the MBF?
Normally one contacts the organisation one is attempting to join? (do you go to the butchers for your Bread?)
Now you have the new MBF number call them and apply to join.
Seems fairly simple to me.
Let us know how you go.
DK
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Originally Posted by sockedunnecessarily
why we have been screwed on profit share and share gift
You know, company makes a profit - you get some of it. Company makes a loss you get some of your pay deducted.
It's only "fair" given that you aren't risking some of your savings / capital (like shareholders).
Instead of an unverified, unjustified whinge here why don't you ring them and ask them?
When you have done this (called both the MBF & AFAP)
When you have done this (called both the MBF & AFAP)
Would have thought the message was self explanatory to a AFAP member who was attempting to join the MBF?
Normally one contacts the organisation one is attempting to join? (do you go to the butchers for your Bread?)
Normally one contacts the organisation one is attempting to join? (do you go to the butchers for your Bread?)
And yes, I have called both: the lady at the MBF said it was a regulatory issue and that she had no time frame for its resolution.
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rmcdonal
Firstly, an apology: you are correct the MBF is not allowing AFAP members to currently become members of the MBF as they are entitled to do.
Often pilots attack the AFAP or MBF from their perceived personal view these organisations are not servicing the membership as they see or, believe their personal case has been handled poorly. Examination of the individual’s case reveals there are always two sides to every story and all is not as is purported.
It is too easy to say the AFAP has not achieved a very good result and many times the result required does not meet various expectations. Take into account or look behind the scenes the many factors in play negotiating, arbitrating or deciding what to achieve or accept reveals none of this is easy and in the majority of cases, the best result is what is often achieved.
One of the biggest contributors to the difficulties deciding or achieving a result is the position, divisions, actions, inaction, support or points of view of pilots themselves. Often this disapproval is the direct result of ignorance how their organisation works, the environment it has to work in coupled with pilots lack of involvement in their organisation.
The AFAP is the pilots union, belongs to them and no one else; its effectiveness, achievements, successes and services for its members is directly the result of the efforts, work and dedication pilots involved.
Hence the misunderstanding of the intention of your post
Similarly, the MBF: The MBF was setup and run as an offshoot of the AFAP to provide a loss of licence insurance scheme (which included a death benefit) for pilots namely AFAP members. This organisation has done this exceptionally successfully since its inception providing a scheme second to none throughout the world. Name one other insurance company, scheme, which will return a members contribution to the member when they are no longer eligible to be a member.
Disclaimer and Disclosure: In the past I have been a Branch Committeeman, Branch Chairman of two branches, Negotiator including lead negotiator, Vice President and Trustee of both the AFAP and MBF over a long period of many years. I suggest I have a fair understanding of how things work and whilst I would never claim to know all, still an AFAP member, have some concern for the welfare and well being of my fellow pilots. Until this week I have not contributed to this debate nor did I have any contact concerning the debate with the AFAP, MBF or participants in the debate. I have now made several enquires of the MBF, AFAP and other persons involved for the reason of clarification.
I have read with interest and some dismay where the ability of the MBF to provide benefits appears eroded, where deep divisions amongst the trustees has created a serious loss of trust within the trustees. My thought from the very beginning was this has the danger of pilots losing control and ownership of the MBF.
Pilots should have no illusions, guard ownership of the MBF jealously and with zeal as there are many financial sharks continually circulating always ready to seize upon an opportunity to acquire and wrest control of such a successful scheme from its owners.
However, most importantly as is reported by rmcdonal and others, the MBF is currently not allowing AFAP members to join the MBF and this situation has existed for a number of months. Regardless of any excuses, reasons, explanations supposedly attempting to hide behind financial regulations, etc, this is completely and totally unacceptable and blatant mismanagement. Can anyone imagine any commercial insurance company refusing to take new business from any eligible customer?
The very reason for having such a loss of licence scheme can occur at any time (that is loss of licence or inability to fly) and the very refusal of the MBF Trustees to allow membership could create severe financial hardship to a pilot (and pilot's family) eligible to join the MBF.
This failure of the MBF Trustees and MBF Management to execute their duties, exercise an unquestionable duty of care, their competence and integrity allowing this situation to occur is such they should reconsider their position. Failing a reconsideration of their position MBF members should take clear and positive steps to ensure Trustees with integrity and clear intention to manage THEIR fund for the benefit of MBF members and therefore AFAP members are elected to the position of Trustee!
Captain Paul Makin is one of the few who has actually taken the time to try and understand both sides. He has a clear understanding than most of exactly what is happening here and has taken the time to talk/listen to both parties having a good knowledge of the history behind this current issue. He has clearly and succinctly attempted to clarify the situation.
All pilots would do well to heed his advice and support him and pilots with similars view.
All MBF members are urged to attend the forthcoming general meeting to ensure the unacceptable mismanagement of their Fund is properly resolved.
rmcdonal and others, I urge you to contact each and every AFAP/MBF member you know to ensure they attend this meeting. Members unable to attend, give a proxy on your behalf to ensure the MBF returns to providing the care and benefits it has successfully done in the past.
This is Your Union and Your Loss of Licence Fund; the success of both demands your participation.
DK
Firstly, an apology: you are correct the MBF is not allowing AFAP members to currently become members of the MBF as they are entitled to do.
Often pilots attack the AFAP or MBF from their perceived personal view these organisations are not servicing the membership as they see or, believe their personal case has been handled poorly. Examination of the individual’s case reveals there are always two sides to every story and all is not as is purported.
It is too easy to say the AFAP has not achieved a very good result and many times the result required does not meet various expectations. Take into account or look behind the scenes the many factors in play negotiating, arbitrating or deciding what to achieve or accept reveals none of this is easy and in the majority of cases, the best result is what is often achieved.
One of the biggest contributors to the difficulties deciding or achieving a result is the position, divisions, actions, inaction, support or points of view of pilots themselves. Often this disapproval is the direct result of ignorance how their organisation works, the environment it has to work in coupled with pilots lack of involvement in their organisation.
The AFAP is the pilots union, belongs to them and no one else; its effectiveness, achievements, successes and services for its members is directly the result of the efforts, work and dedication pilots involved.
Hence the misunderstanding of the intention of your post
Similarly, the MBF: The MBF was setup and run as an offshoot of the AFAP to provide a loss of licence insurance scheme (which included a death benefit) for pilots namely AFAP members. This organisation has done this exceptionally successfully since its inception providing a scheme second to none throughout the world. Name one other insurance company, scheme, which will return a members contribution to the member when they are no longer eligible to be a member.
Disclaimer and Disclosure: In the past I have been a Branch Committeeman, Branch Chairman of two branches, Negotiator including lead negotiator, Vice President and Trustee of both the AFAP and MBF over a long period of many years. I suggest I have a fair understanding of how things work and whilst I would never claim to know all, still an AFAP member, have some concern for the welfare and well being of my fellow pilots. Until this week I have not contributed to this debate nor did I have any contact concerning the debate with the AFAP, MBF or participants in the debate. I have now made several enquires of the MBF, AFAP and other persons involved for the reason of clarification.
I have read with interest and some dismay where the ability of the MBF to provide benefits appears eroded, where deep divisions amongst the trustees has created a serious loss of trust within the trustees. My thought from the very beginning was this has the danger of pilots losing control and ownership of the MBF.
Pilots should have no illusions, guard ownership of the MBF jealously and with zeal as there are many financial sharks continually circulating always ready to seize upon an opportunity to acquire and wrest control of such a successful scheme from its owners.
However, most importantly as is reported by rmcdonal and others, the MBF is currently not allowing AFAP members to join the MBF and this situation has existed for a number of months. Regardless of any excuses, reasons, explanations supposedly attempting to hide behind financial regulations, etc, this is completely and totally unacceptable and blatant mismanagement. Can anyone imagine any commercial insurance company refusing to take new business from any eligible customer?
The very reason for having such a loss of licence scheme can occur at any time (that is loss of licence or inability to fly) and the very refusal of the MBF Trustees to allow membership could create severe financial hardship to a pilot (and pilot's family) eligible to join the MBF.
This failure of the MBF Trustees and MBF Management to execute their duties, exercise an unquestionable duty of care, their competence and integrity allowing this situation to occur is such they should reconsider their position. Failing a reconsideration of their position MBF members should take clear and positive steps to ensure Trustees with integrity and clear intention to manage THEIR fund for the benefit of MBF members and therefore AFAP members are elected to the position of Trustee!
Captain Paul Makin is one of the few who has actually taken the time to try and understand both sides. He has a clear understanding than most of exactly what is happening here and has taken the time to talk/listen to both parties having a good knowledge of the history behind this current issue. He has clearly and succinctly attempted to clarify the situation.
All pilots would do well to heed his advice and support him and pilots with similars view.
All MBF members are urged to attend the forthcoming general meeting to ensure the unacceptable mismanagement of their Fund is properly resolved.
rmcdonal and others, I urge you to contact each and every AFAP/MBF member you know to ensure they attend this meeting. Members unable to attend, give a proxy on your behalf to ensure the MBF returns to providing the care and benefits it has successfully done in the past.
This is Your Union and Your Loss of Licence Fund; the success of both demands your participation.
DK
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It is apparent that some members of the AFAP are having difficulty in accessing their rightful membership of the AAPMBF.
As we have an Annual General Meeting coming up in a few days (4th December) it is perhaps timely for those who have been disadvantaged to have their voice heard.
If you or anyone you know, has had an application for membership of AAPMBF rejected or been refused application documentation:
If you or anyone you know has had a claim against the fund rejected or modified in an unfair or unreasonable manner:
If you or anyone you know has had any difficulty whatsoever, in their dealings with the administration of the AAPMBF:
I invite you to contact me with those details you feel comfortable about revealing at email address [email protected]
Confidentiality will be respected unless specifically waived.
Paul Makin
As we have an Annual General Meeting coming up in a few days (4th December) it is perhaps timely for those who have been disadvantaged to have their voice heard.
If you or anyone you know, has had an application for membership of AAPMBF rejected or been refused application documentation:
If you or anyone you know has had a claim against the fund rejected or modified in an unfair or unreasonable manner:
If you or anyone you know has had any difficulty whatsoever, in their dealings with the administration of the AAPMBF:
I invite you to contact me with those details you feel comfortable about revealing at email address [email protected]
Confidentiality will be respected unless specifically waived.
Paul Makin
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AAPMBF AGM notes and comments
Official notification of the events of the Annual General Meeting of the AAPMBF will, on the basis of past experience, be a long time coming, if ever. To place before the membership some of the events and outcomes of the meeting, what follows are my recollections and interpretations of some of the more important factors. I represent no-one, and have not been solicited by anyone to produce these notes. It is done on a personal basis to, hopefully, give members information on which to judge the various rumours they will hear as they go about their day to day tasks.
Most importantly, earlier in the day one of the new Trustees, Capt John Grady canvassed all the Trustees except Mr Brownscomb, and got a unanimous undertaking that the opening of the fund to all comers was not an option, and that the Trustees have committed to retaining the ties to the AFAP. If the day achieved nothing else, that was a great win for the membership and Capt Grady deserves our gratitude.
In simple terms non AFAP members will not be allowed to retain an AAPMBF membership.
Later in the discussion one bi-directional member stated that he thought it unfair that he could not take his AAPMBF with him as he left AFAP for VIPA. Interestingly I have before me a VIPA document that mirrors that stipulation but in reverse. To maintain VIPA Loss of License one must be a member of VIPA and must be employed within the Virgin Blue Group. Applying the same measure of fairness the VIPA policy is more restrictive.
The Fund Manager expressed concern that of the members of AAPMBF who had resigned since the beginning of the year about 50% expressed the view that dissatisfaction with the AFAP was the reason. She implied that there were hoards of resignations, and that this was a serious threat to the Fund, but the numbers revealed were actually less than 100, so those dissatisfied number less than 50. Given that there is a new contender for representation, VIPA, such a number is hardly surprising.
To put things in perspective it should be remembered that 1989/1990 we had a departure of probably around 300 members with no serious detrimental effect on the viability of the fund. In the early 80’s we lost around 30% of the membership as the Overseas Branch walked out the door. That did not kill the Fund at a time when it was substantially less well off. Any talk of mass resignations threatening the viability of the fund is in my view mere scare tactics to support some other agenda. The percentage of membership resigned this year, using the Fund manager’s figures is in the order of 5% and those expressing dissatisfaction with the AFAP about 2.5%. Given a 35 year average membership one should normally expect about 50 members a year, to resign due to being time expired. The current figures, in my view are nothing extraordinary. In the last reporting period the AFAP membership figure is around 2700 and there have been 60 resignations and expulsions from that organisation. The fund manager’s fear would seem unfounded.
The bulk of the meeting concentrated on the continued pursuit of the Financial Services Licence (FSL) and the relationship with the AFAP. Whilst it is the position of elements of the Board of Trustees and the Fund Manager, that we have no option but to go down that route, it was pointed out that there are other options.
It should be noted that the Air Traffic Controllers fund operates outside the FSL regulated environment, and also that, the Aviation Industry Superannuation Trust (TAIST) is finding the costs of compliance with it’s FSL are so prohibitive that it is seeking alternatives to reduce the effect on members. The TAIST fund has holdings similar in size to that of the AAPMBF, just short of 100 million, and is finding ONGOING REGULATORY EXPENSES, detrimental. The Trustees at a special meeting in September stated that the ON-GOING REGLATORY EXPENSES of the FSL were “negligible”.
Questions were raised about the fact that the AAPMBF is not currently accepting new members. It was revealed that this was as a result of legal advice that to do so while the FSL application process was underway and until a Product Disclosure Statement is produced, that it would be unlawful to accept new members. It was further revealed that the last new member was admitted August 14th of this year.
It is clear from these disclosures that the Trustees knew of this legal advice and had ceased to take members prior to the Special Meeting of 11 September.
As that Special meeting had wide ranging discussions on the FSL and its impact it seems remarkable that the Trustees failed to inform the members present, that the FSL process had proceeded so far. They implied that it was early in a long process.
The point was made that as the sole business of the Fund is to provide coverage to members and that as it was no longer accepting new business it was not fulfilling its function.
Given that the trustees knew of this situation it should have been covered at the Special General Meeting where the discussion centred on the pursuit of the FSL and the deteriorating relationship with the AFAP.
To not reveal such a relevant fact is at best a staggering omission.
At that special meeting in September the Trustees were requested to take no irrevocable action with respect to the FSL, until relationships with the AFAP had been repaired and that the impact of the FSL had been properly assessed. Progress to the FSL has continued unabated and the Chairman has failed to achieve any consensus with the AFAP.
The meeting adjourned for a short time as the Fund Manager was overcome with a temporary incapacitation. Fortunately it was of a passing nature and the Fund Manager returned to good health after a brief break. The meeting wished her well.
Due to the break in proceedings and the protracted nature of the meeting the structure of discussion broke-down somewhat and ultimately many questions were left unasked or unanswered.
Having passed a direction to the Chairman to work towards normalisation of relations with the AFAP to re-establishing a commonality of purpose, and to report to the membership by February 15 2010, the chairman declared the meeting closed as he was on his feet heading towards the door.
No formal question was heard as to there being any further business.
Paul Makin
Most importantly, earlier in the day one of the new Trustees, Capt John Grady canvassed all the Trustees except Mr Brownscomb, and got a unanimous undertaking that the opening of the fund to all comers was not an option, and that the Trustees have committed to retaining the ties to the AFAP. If the day achieved nothing else, that was a great win for the membership and Capt Grady deserves our gratitude.
In simple terms non AFAP members will not be allowed to retain an AAPMBF membership.
Later in the discussion one bi-directional member stated that he thought it unfair that he could not take his AAPMBF with him as he left AFAP for VIPA. Interestingly I have before me a VIPA document that mirrors that stipulation but in reverse. To maintain VIPA Loss of License one must be a member of VIPA and must be employed within the Virgin Blue Group. Applying the same measure of fairness the VIPA policy is more restrictive.
The Fund Manager expressed concern that of the members of AAPMBF who had resigned since the beginning of the year about 50% expressed the view that dissatisfaction with the AFAP was the reason. She implied that there were hoards of resignations, and that this was a serious threat to the Fund, but the numbers revealed were actually less than 100, so those dissatisfied number less than 50. Given that there is a new contender for representation, VIPA, such a number is hardly surprising.
To put things in perspective it should be remembered that 1989/1990 we had a departure of probably around 300 members with no serious detrimental effect on the viability of the fund. In the early 80’s we lost around 30% of the membership as the Overseas Branch walked out the door. That did not kill the Fund at a time when it was substantially less well off. Any talk of mass resignations threatening the viability of the fund is in my view mere scare tactics to support some other agenda. The percentage of membership resigned this year, using the Fund manager’s figures is in the order of 5% and those expressing dissatisfaction with the AFAP about 2.5%. Given a 35 year average membership one should normally expect about 50 members a year, to resign due to being time expired. The current figures, in my view are nothing extraordinary. In the last reporting period the AFAP membership figure is around 2700 and there have been 60 resignations and expulsions from that organisation. The fund manager’s fear would seem unfounded.
The bulk of the meeting concentrated on the continued pursuit of the Financial Services Licence (FSL) and the relationship with the AFAP. Whilst it is the position of elements of the Board of Trustees and the Fund Manager, that we have no option but to go down that route, it was pointed out that there are other options.
It should be noted that the Air Traffic Controllers fund operates outside the FSL regulated environment, and also that, the Aviation Industry Superannuation Trust (TAIST) is finding the costs of compliance with it’s FSL are so prohibitive that it is seeking alternatives to reduce the effect on members. The TAIST fund has holdings similar in size to that of the AAPMBF, just short of 100 million, and is finding ONGOING REGULATORY EXPENSES, detrimental. The Trustees at a special meeting in September stated that the ON-GOING REGLATORY EXPENSES of the FSL were “negligible”.
Questions were raised about the fact that the AAPMBF is not currently accepting new members. It was revealed that this was as a result of legal advice that to do so while the FSL application process was underway and until a Product Disclosure Statement is produced, that it would be unlawful to accept new members. It was further revealed that the last new member was admitted August 14th of this year.
It is clear from these disclosures that the Trustees knew of this legal advice and had ceased to take members prior to the Special Meeting of 11 September.
As that Special meeting had wide ranging discussions on the FSL and its impact it seems remarkable that the Trustees failed to inform the members present, that the FSL process had proceeded so far. They implied that it was early in a long process.
The point was made that as the sole business of the Fund is to provide coverage to members and that as it was no longer accepting new business it was not fulfilling its function.
Given that the trustees knew of this situation it should have been covered at the Special General Meeting where the discussion centred on the pursuit of the FSL and the deteriorating relationship with the AFAP.
To not reveal such a relevant fact is at best a staggering omission.
At that special meeting in September the Trustees were requested to take no irrevocable action with respect to the FSL, until relationships with the AFAP had been repaired and that the impact of the FSL had been properly assessed. Progress to the FSL has continued unabated and the Chairman has failed to achieve any consensus with the AFAP.
The meeting adjourned for a short time as the Fund Manager was overcome with a temporary incapacitation. Fortunately it was of a passing nature and the Fund Manager returned to good health after a brief break. The meeting wished her well.
Due to the break in proceedings and the protracted nature of the meeting the structure of discussion broke-down somewhat and ultimately many questions were left unasked or unanswered.
Having passed a direction to the Chairman to work towards normalisation of relations with the AFAP to re-establishing a commonality of purpose, and to report to the membership by February 15 2010, the chairman declared the meeting closed as he was on his feet heading towards the door.
No formal question was heard as to there being any further business.
Paul Makin
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 74
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I was very impressed that the Board, member by member, committed itself totally to the concept embedded in the rules and history that the MBF was for AFAP members only and that there was not intent, thought, discussion or prospect that this situation would change. Should the AFAP ever move into a wider pilot union grouping then no doubt a re-appraisal could occurr but that would be on the AFAP/MBF members' terms, not by stealth. I feel comforted by that.
I was less comforted that having committed itself to the "By the AFAP members, For the AFAP members" concept, it unfolded that the Board was adopting a strategy suite apparently designed and crafted to achieve the exact opposite. Sort of like committing yourself to dental health but taking toothpaste off your shopping list.
I remain very concerned about the following elements of current Board policy whose collective impact is to significantly lessen the value and strategic worth of the MBF to its current and future AFAP members:
However, given the Chairman's open commitment to reverse the drift away from the AFAP as a matter of urgency I remain optimistic that the above items are not the result of a covert policy to commercialise the fund and hence diminish its worth to current members.
I am sure that when by late February the MBF Board reports back to the members on progress back toward restoring the close AFAP/MBF relationship we will hear that the Board's strategies are once more are aligned with its stated goals. I doubt the membership would have much patience for any other outcome or any further delay. I know I won't.
I was less comforted that having committed itself to the "By the AFAP members, For the AFAP members" concept, it unfolded that the Board was adopting a strategy suite apparently designed and crafted to achieve the exact opposite. Sort of like committing yourself to dental health but taking toothpaste off your shopping list.
I remain very concerned about the following elements of current Board policy whose collective impact is to significantly lessen the value and strategic worth of the MBF to its current and future AFAP members:
- Removal of mention of the founding role of the AFAP from the MBF letterhead
- Refusal to accept new AFAP members into the MBF without prior advice to members, compensation or notification of when membership applications might again be processed
- Refusal to allow elected AFAP Principal Officers to be on the MBF Board
- Failure to seek any form of relief/exemption (interim or permanent) from the "commercial" FSR licence track
- Dismissal without published reason of the AFAP as MBF Trustee
- Failure by MBF auditors to mention the dismissal of the AFAP in their Audit Report
- Open denigration of AFAP activities in MBF publications
- Failure to act on the express wishes of the September 2009 Special General Meeting and "heal the rift" with the AFAP before going any further down the regulatory track
- Failure to use the success of the fund to actively promote AFAP/MBF membership to the next generation of young pilots
- Failure to develop new potential products for MBF members (such as long-term disability protection)
However, given the Chairman's open commitment to reverse the drift away from the AFAP as a matter of urgency I remain optimistic that the above items are not the result of a covert policy to commercialise the fund and hence diminish its worth to current members.
I am sure that when by late February the MBF Board reports back to the members on progress back toward restoring the close AFAP/MBF relationship we will hear that the Board's strategies are once more are aligned with its stated goals. I doubt the membership would have much patience for any other outcome or any further delay. I know I won't.
I don't know just how committed the Chairman is to the wishes of the Members. Having sent an email stating my viewpoint on this situation, and asking a couple of questions as to the direction of the MBF vis a vis the intent of its founders I have yet to receive a response after one week! The lack of reply is very concerning-are the individuals so arrogant that they consider themselves beyond offering either an adequate explanation, or beyond reproach to members? As an overseas member the only option that I have that leaves a documentation trail is to address issues in writing. Surely if a Member writes in with valid queries then a RESPONSE is required (and also dictated for by common courtesy!!!).
Join Date: Nov 2001
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What is happening??
I have been waiting for months to join the AFAP and MBF. I called both the AFAP and the MBF today, the best I could get was "this should be resolved early this year".
Does anyone have more information on the situation? Is there any likelihood of a timely resolution? From what I read above most MBF members want relations with the AFAP restored but the fund management is busy creating smokescreens to obscure whatever is happening behind the scenes?
I will have to go elsewhere for insurance soon ...
Does anyone have more information on the situation? Is there any likelihood of a timely resolution? From what I read above most MBF members want relations with the AFAP restored but the fund management is busy creating smokescreens to obscure whatever is happening behind the scenes?
I will have to go elsewhere for insurance soon ...