Senate hearing and NAS interesting answers from CASA
Thread Starter
Owen, even if the radar coverage went to ground level at Benalla the result ould have been the same- 6 people dead.
As it was, there were plenty of radar paints below the LSA/MSA that could have set off an alarm if it had been enabled.
Keep your mind closed - more people will die!
Oz, I will get a quote on he TCAS.Has it been fully TSOd ?
As it was, there were plenty of radar paints below the LSA/MSA that could have set off an alarm if it had been enabled.
Keep your mind closed - more people will die!
Oz, I will get a quote on he TCAS.Has it been fully TSOd ?
Dick, this is NOT TCAS!
This is ADS-B Rx or "IN" If you do care to investigate you will find that using ModeS it will be as accurate as a TCAS unit. However, depicting FLARM or ADS-B Tx or "OUT"? TCAS cannot hold a candle to it!
EDIT I know where this is leading. Dick , you need to embrace this technolgy before too many people die. Do not blame the ATC for something that is way out of their control. Give them the tools AND the manpower to do the job safely. You intended to have the safest airspace in the world. DO THE JOB YOU INTENDED BY GIVING THE SYSTEM THE EYE'S IT NEEDED AT THE BEGINNING. TAAATS was cutting edge technolgy but it still needs the tools to guarantee security behind that suite of alarms in it's armoury.
This is ADS-B Rx or "IN" If you do care to investigate you will find that using ModeS it will be as accurate as a TCAS unit. However, depicting FLARM or ADS-B Tx or "OUT"? TCAS cannot hold a candle to it!
EDIT I know where this is leading. Dick , you need to embrace this technolgy before too many people die. Do not blame the ATC for something that is way out of their control. Give them the tools AND the manpower to do the job safely. You intended to have the safest airspace in the world. DO THE JOB YOU INTENDED BY GIVING THE SYSTEM THE EYE'S IT NEEDED AT THE BEGINNING. TAAATS was cutting edge technolgy but it still needs the tools to guarantee security behind that suite of alarms in it's armoury.
Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 5th Jul 2009 at 03:08.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
david grant
Gosh gentlemen,
I read through all the posts on this topic, and to be frank I really despair.
Just an observation, but it would seem that when someone dosnt seem to have a rational argument they resort to personal villification. I had to ask myself what could be Mr. Smiths motive to bash his head against a brick wall....he for sure dosnt need money...besides how could he possibly gain finacially from this...I have to conclude that he is a serious thinker who perhaps would like to see our industry move on...also to achieve a safer and affordable environment for us all to fly in.
My personal experience in other areas of regulation in Australia indicates an attitude by our various regulators of..."All the rest of the world is wrong...we are right!!"....is this true of our Aviation regulator??...I guess sometimes that is correct...but who in this world has a monopoly on knowledge???, to deny what works and is affordable elsewhere in the world is a folly, which costs this country dearly.I wonder how many of these posts are from those with a vested interest in resisting change and maintaining the staus Quo??
I am not an expert on anything, just a pilot who has accrued some 25,000 hours flying around the world...does the US system work...in the US, yes it does... very well!!,...old American saying " Works well lasts a long time"... Would I like to see it work here??...yes I would.
Since I returned home after some thirty years over "there", I can honestly say I have never felt more uncomfortable, unsafe and uneasy flying anywhere else in the world, if you want to be embarressed read what is written in many of the corporate pilots guides about Australia.I flew a BBJ from Europe to Australia...the fees from Port Headland to Sydney were more than the Fees from Europe to Port Headland...Parking at Sydney for three days I could have got in UK or Europe for a fortnight...Whatever system we end up with it has to be affordable, something I think our regulator totally ignores, to its peril...cant regulate an industry that dosnt exist!!... If we do not change, we all may as well go grow advocado's or something.
Gentlemen, please, lets have a rational debate instead of personal attacks.I'm not pushing Mr. Smiths agenda, I'm just an old fella who has spent his whole life in this industry from 16 years of age, and dearly want to see it prosper, I know experience counts for nothing these days, but what I do know is our system does not work and is patently unsafe...I really do believe that is what Mr. Smith is trying to address...disagree with him if you will, but at least put up a rational argument as to why he is wrong.
Incidently this post is my real name, Toss your crap at me as much as you like...
It washes off you know!!...
Safe flying to all
David
I read through all the posts on this topic, and to be frank I really despair.
Just an observation, but it would seem that when someone dosnt seem to have a rational argument they resort to personal villification. I had to ask myself what could be Mr. Smiths motive to bash his head against a brick wall....he for sure dosnt need money...besides how could he possibly gain finacially from this...I have to conclude that he is a serious thinker who perhaps would like to see our industry move on...also to achieve a safer and affordable environment for us all to fly in.
My personal experience in other areas of regulation in Australia indicates an attitude by our various regulators of..."All the rest of the world is wrong...we are right!!"....is this true of our Aviation regulator??...I guess sometimes that is correct...but who in this world has a monopoly on knowledge???, to deny what works and is affordable elsewhere in the world is a folly, which costs this country dearly.I wonder how many of these posts are from those with a vested interest in resisting change and maintaining the staus Quo??
I am not an expert on anything, just a pilot who has accrued some 25,000 hours flying around the world...does the US system work...in the US, yes it does... very well!!,...old American saying " Works well lasts a long time"... Would I like to see it work here??...yes I would.
Since I returned home after some thirty years over "there", I can honestly say I have never felt more uncomfortable, unsafe and uneasy flying anywhere else in the world, if you want to be embarressed read what is written in many of the corporate pilots guides about Australia.I flew a BBJ from Europe to Australia...the fees from Port Headland to Sydney were more than the Fees from Europe to Port Headland...Parking at Sydney for three days I could have got in UK or Europe for a fortnight...Whatever system we end up with it has to be affordable, something I think our regulator totally ignores, to its peril...cant regulate an industry that dosnt exist!!... If we do not change, we all may as well go grow advocado's or something.
Gentlemen, please, lets have a rational debate instead of personal attacks.I'm not pushing Mr. Smiths agenda, I'm just an old fella who has spent his whole life in this industry from 16 years of age, and dearly want to see it prosper, I know experience counts for nothing these days, but what I do know is our system does not work and is patently unsafe...I really do believe that is what Mr. Smith is trying to address...disagree with him if you will, but at least put up a rational argument as to why he is wrong.
Incidently this post is my real name, Toss your crap at me as much as you like...
It washes off you know!!...
Safe flying to all
David
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: On a different Island
Age: 52
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew a BBJ from Europe to Australia...the fees from Port Headland to Sydney were more than the Fees from Europe to Port Headland...Parking at Sydney for three days I could have got in UK or Europe for a fortnight...
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
david grant
Thanks owen,
thought I'd get buried in so much crap I wouldnt be able to breath...
Call me Naive, but I have seen what works, maybe with open minds, not pushing agenda's, we might adapt something to work here...but then who am I to disagree with the self appointed experts...Like I said, I'm not an expert, but at least I can recognise what works and what dosnt.
David
thought I'd get buried in so much crap I wouldnt be able to breath...
Call me Naive, but I have seen what works, maybe with open minds, not pushing agenda's, we might adapt something to work here...but then who am I to disagree with the self appointed experts...Like I said, I'm not an expert, but at least I can recognise what works and what dosnt.
David
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David, you have raised something that many of us here have been saying for ages
There is something wrong with the charging regime in Australia. Mr. Smith ignores totally this aspect of the 'system', pointedly refusing to be drawn. On the odd occasion that he is drawn, he makes comment along the lines of "that's too hard' etc. He is quite happy to crow about how much money he has saved (read "ripped") from the industry, yet remains blissfully ignorant about what happened to the so-called savings. It doesn't do aviation any good to rip money out of the industry, if aviation doesn't reap the benefit!!
Mr. Smith claims to want to introduce 'the US system', but the 'US system' includes a different attitude to revenue collection, has flight service etc. etc. etc. Just altering some airspace classifications is not 'the US system'. But this has all been done to death, David, over and over. If you've got a couple of weeks you could trawl thru the many threads Mr. Smith has participated in. Then come back and see how the tired claims of "Change Resistance" look.
As your main point of dissatisfaction seems to be with the charges levied on your flight, you may like to explain how what ANY of Mr. Smith proposes addresses this?
I flew a BBJ from Europe to Australia...the fees from Port Headland to Sydney were more than the Fees from Europe to Port Headland...Parking at Sydney for three days I could have got in UK or Europe for a fortnight...Whatever system we end up with it has to be affordable
Mr. Smith claims to want to introduce 'the US system', but the 'US system' includes a different attitude to revenue collection, has flight service etc. etc. etc. Just altering some airspace classifications is not 'the US system'. But this has all been done to death, David, over and over. If you've got a couple of weeks you could trawl thru the many threads Mr. Smith has participated in. Then come back and see how the tired claims of "Change Resistance" look.
As your main point of dissatisfaction seems to be with the charges levied on your flight, you may like to explain how what ANY of Mr. Smith proposes addresses this?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
david grant
blockla..opps did I get that right...sorry.
No mate, not for four years, although I am still in touch with a few mates who do operate there. Cant imagine costs have accelerated that much in four years...but I will defer to an expert like you if I'm wrong. perhaps your "handle" tells it all
David
No mate, not for four years, although I am still in touch with a few mates who do operate there. Cant imagine costs have accelerated that much in four years...but I will defer to an expert like you if I'm wrong. perhaps your "handle" tells it all
David
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
david grant
Ferris,
Thank you...a rational reply.
yes I totally agree with you....our system must be affordable....at the same time it must be Safe...quite a balancing act...if we want or require total safety then put everything in the hangar...no accidents..perfect safety..
somewhere in the middle is the answer...that will be reached by rational debate, not by personal attacks. As I have said, I dont necessarily agree with Mr. Smith, but for goodness sake let us have a rational discussion rather than savaging each other.
David
Thank you...a rational reply.
yes I totally agree with you....our system must be affordable....at the same time it must be Safe...quite a balancing act...if we want or require total safety then put everything in the hangar...no accidents..perfect safety..
somewhere in the middle is the answer...that will be reached by rational debate, not by personal attacks. As I have said, I dont necessarily agree with Mr. Smith, but for goodness sake let us have a rational discussion rather than savaging each other.
David
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
david grant
Ferris,
I'm very sorry, I didnt fully read your post...I jumped the gun as it were.
Yes, you hit the nail right on the head...our charging...revenue raising...whatever you want to call it, regime.
I'm being fasicious here, I lived in a tax free environment for too long...Once upon a time we paid taxes and the government provided us with services...Now we pay taxes...and GST plus we pay for every government service we may require. I think the beauracrat who invented the word cost recovery should have got a peerage....nice little earner!!
Since I returned to Australia and got involved in managerment, its frightening to see the end result of the charging regime of CASA, the reluctance to inform, request assistance, apply, even wish them gooday!!It may cost you!!
Good grief, if we cant seek advice...or even talk to our regulator without it costing money, we are in serious sh...t. Sigh!!!...we've flogged everything else off maybe the Govnt should flog Casa to Maquarie bank as well.
There has to be a better way...I hope!!!
David
I'm very sorry, I didnt fully read your post...I jumped the gun as it were.
Yes, you hit the nail right on the head...our charging...revenue raising...whatever you want to call it, regime.
I'm being fasicious here, I lived in a tax free environment for too long...Once upon a time we paid taxes and the government provided us with services...Now we pay taxes...and GST plus we pay for every government service we may require. I think the beauracrat who invented the word cost recovery should have got a peerage....nice little earner!!
Since I returned to Australia and got involved in managerment, its frightening to see the end result of the charging regime of CASA, the reluctance to inform, request assistance, apply, even wish them gooday!!It may cost you!!
Good grief, if we cant seek advice...or even talk to our regulator without it costing money, we are in serious sh...t. Sigh!!!...we've flogged everything else off maybe the Govnt should flog Casa to Maquarie bank as well.
There has to be a better way...I hope!!!
David
Grandpa Aerotart
I can honestly say I have never felt more uncomfortable, unsafe and uneasy flying anywhere else in the world, if you want to be embarressed read what is written in many of the corporate pilots guides about Australia.I flew a BBJ from Europe to Australia..
And
I know experience counts for nothing these days, but what I do know is our system does not work and is patently unsafe...I really do believe that is what Mr. Smith is trying to address...disagree with him if you will, but at least put up a rational argument as to why he is wrong.
And
I know experience counts for nothing these days, but what I do know is our system does not work and is patently unsafe...I really do believe that is what Mr. Smith is trying to address...disagree with him if you will, but at least put up a rational argument as to why he is wrong.
You don't honestly feel safer inside the French, Russian and Chinese FIRs with them chatting away in French, Russian and Chinese do you?
Sorry sir but having a rational debate with someone who starts from your premise is just a tad difficult.
And Mr Smith is NOT trying to address this issue anyway. I have been debating Mr Smith in this place since the first day he turned up here and what Mr Smith is all about is cherry picking those parts of the US system that he likes because they let him do what HE WANTS in his aircraft but leaving the greater part of the US system in the US.
Thread Starter
Ferris, you appear to be making a judgement on what I might do by what you would do.
The safer system that is government policy that I want would actually have me following ATC instructions more than the present system.
Why is it that those who are against NAS all hide their real names?
They do not have one spokesman in a population of 20 million who has the self belief to stand up to me and state why the current government NAS policy is wrong!
Weak and pathetic with no real genuine evidence as to why they constantly resist change is the only explanation.
The safer system that is government policy that I want would actually have me following ATC instructions more than the present system.
Why is it that those who are against NAS all hide their real names?
They do not have one spokesman in a population of 20 million who has the self belief to stand up to me and state why the current government NAS policy is wrong!
Weak and pathetic with no real genuine evidence as to why they constantly resist change is the only explanation.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ferris, you appear to be making a judgement on what I might do by what you would do.
David, you said
..that will be reached by rational debate, not by personal attacks
Barely a few posts later, and Smith is all
Weak and pathetic with no real genuine evidence as to why they constantly resist change
As soon as Dick runs out of argument (ie. his ideas are demonstrated to be flawed), he goes the man.
The safer system that is government policy
Why is it that those who are against NAS all hide their real names?
You see, David Grant (even though you post under your real name), those of us who would engage with Mr. Smith can only do so under anonymity, as we work in the industry. How can knowing a posters identity possibly sway argument? Surely an argument should rest purely on it's merits, regardless of who utters the words? If so, then what possible interest could there be to Mr. Smith in who utters the words? Cynics who have had dealings with Mr. Smith might surmise that the only possible reason for knowing a posters identity is to have that poster silenced.
Surely you agree?
Ferris, you appear to be making a judgement on what I might do by what you would do.
Why is it that those who are against NAS all hide their real names?
They do not have one spokesman in a population of 20 million who has the self belief to stand up to me and state why the current government NAS policy is wrong!
Weak and pathetic with no real genuine evidence as to why they constantly resist change is the only explanation.
Dick Smith said:
The various regional RAPACs certainly made their views known over the years:
And the RAAA:
http://www.raaa.com.au/Issues/Articl...20Jul%2007.pdf
davidgrant: Many of us have been here rationally debating this exact issue for the last 9 years .....
Why is it that those who are against NAS all hide their real names?
They do not have one spokesman in a population of 20 million who has the self belief to stand up to me and state why the current government NAS policy is wrong!
They do not have one spokesman in a population of 20 million who has the self belief to stand up to me and state why the current government NAS policy is wrong!
MINUTES WESTERN AUSTRALIAN RAPAC MEETING 2003/02
26TH NOVEMBER 2003
5.4. NAS
A representative from the NASIG was not present at the meeting. However, members gave the following comments on the NAS model.
It appears to be the national opinion that the NAS model was steam rolled by the Minister contrary to concerns from many operators.
The model has been implemented to suit small aircraft operators, not medium or heavy aircraft operators.
TCAS is being used as a primary tool for controlling aircraft.
Operator concerns have been highlighted in various forums around the country, but to no avail.
The education package should have been delivered 3 months prior to the changes becoming effective to ensure pilot education was thorough and complete. The package was delivered only in the last couple of weeks. Some pilots are yet to receive the information.
NASs further proposal of removing MBZs in the next stages is of serious concern and is objected to strongly by industry.
Further changes to the airspace should not proceed until ADS-B has been implemented.
Industry refutes the quoted 70million dollar saving NAS will provide. They believe the savings do not exist and industry has been mislead by the Minister and NASIG.
NASIG have promoted that the RAPAC forum has been used for consultation with industry. In truth members believe this has not occurred as proper consultation was not administered.
Pilot knowledge of NAS is minimal. This in itself highlights a problem with the implementation process of the new system.
26TH NOVEMBER 2003
5.4. NAS
A representative from the NASIG was not present at the meeting. However, members gave the following comments on the NAS model.
It appears to be the national opinion that the NAS model was steam rolled by the Minister contrary to concerns from many operators.
The model has been implemented to suit small aircraft operators, not medium or heavy aircraft operators.
TCAS is being used as a primary tool for controlling aircraft.
Operator concerns have been highlighted in various forums around the country, but to no avail.
The education package should have been delivered 3 months prior to the changes becoming effective to ensure pilot education was thorough and complete. The package was delivered only in the last couple of weeks. Some pilots are yet to receive the information.
NASs further proposal of removing MBZs in the next stages is of serious concern and is objected to strongly by industry.
Further changes to the airspace should not proceed until ADS-B has been implemented.
Industry refutes the quoted 70million dollar saving NAS will provide. They believe the savings do not exist and industry has been mislead by the Minister and NASIG.
NASIG have promoted that the RAPAC forum has been used for consultation with industry. In truth members believe this has not occurred as proper consultation was not administered.
Pilot knowledge of NAS is minimal. This in itself highlights a problem with the implementation process of the new system.
http://www.raaa.com.au/Issues/Articl...20Jul%2007.pdf
davidgrant: Many of us have been here rationally debating this exact issue for the last 9 years .....
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Near TownTown
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I could reply, but my posts seem to disappear.
Who cares if an ADSB-IN is TSO'd as long ast the ADSB-OUT is (or is certifyably accurate for VFR).
TSO is a dinosaur anyway.
What happened to the ADSB funding debate anyway???
Who cares if an ADSB-IN is TSO'd as long ast the ADSB-OUT is (or is certifyably accurate for VFR).
TSO is a dinosaur anyway.
What happened to the ADSB funding debate anyway???
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ADS-B roll out continues
those a-holes at Macquarie bank should pay for it
Thanks Owen Stanley, like the Zen Master says..."We'll see
"
Time will prove all arguments. ADS-B is not going to go away for these guys. No matter how much mud they throw and how many ministers and senators they mis-inform. ADS-B cometh!
" Time will prove all arguments. ADS-B is not going to go away for these guys. No matter how much mud they throw and how many ministers and senators they mis-inform. ADS-B cometh!