Second airport debate, rebirth?
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Second airport debate, rebirth?
Second airport pops up on radar, and airlines favour Richmond
Matt O'Sullivan
June 20, 2009
THE Federal Government has given the strongest indication yet that it will push ahead with plans for a second Sydney airport.
In a rebuke to the Macquarie-controlled Sydney Airport's growth forecasts, the Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, has challenged its ability to handle a more than doubling of passengers over the next 20 years.
Airlines including Qantas and Virgin Blue want the Government to make the Richmond RAAF base the airport site.
Yesterday Mr Albanese approved Sydney Airport's 20-year master plan but said that did not mean he accepted it could handle the projected growth in traffic to 427,000 aircraft movements a year by 2029.
"The national interest dictates that Sydney will need new airport capacity," he said.
The federal and state governments are expected to begin a joint study to identify potential sites and investment for boosting airport capacity. It will also consider the future of the Badgerys Creek site, which has been ruled out as an option for a second airport. Although Bankstown Airport has also been struck off the list, Mr Albanese has not made a final ruling about Richmond as an option.
The Board of Airline Representatives, on behalf of carriers serving Australia, said it favoured Richmond because sites outside the Sydney basin, such as the Williamtown RAAF base at Newcastle, "are not feasible".
"The airport must be located as near as possible to [the Sydney] market to, firstly, meet passenger demands and, secondly, to minimise the cost of the required transport," the board said. It also disputes Sydney Airport's claims of being able to handle passenger growth over the next 20 years.
Qantas has not previously said which site it prefers but has given its approval to the board's submission to Mr Albanese.
Matt O'Sullivan
June 20, 2009
THE Federal Government has given the strongest indication yet that it will push ahead with plans for a second Sydney airport.
In a rebuke to the Macquarie-controlled Sydney Airport's growth forecasts, the Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, has challenged its ability to handle a more than doubling of passengers over the next 20 years.
Airlines including Qantas and Virgin Blue want the Government to make the Richmond RAAF base the airport site.
Yesterday Mr Albanese approved Sydney Airport's 20-year master plan but said that did not mean he accepted it could handle the projected growth in traffic to 427,000 aircraft movements a year by 2029.
"The national interest dictates that Sydney will need new airport capacity," he said.
The federal and state governments are expected to begin a joint study to identify potential sites and investment for boosting airport capacity. It will also consider the future of the Badgerys Creek site, which has been ruled out as an option for a second airport. Although Bankstown Airport has also been struck off the list, Mr Albanese has not made a final ruling about Richmond as an option.
The Board of Airline Representatives, on behalf of carriers serving Australia, said it favoured Richmond because sites outside the Sydney basin, such as the Williamtown RAAF base at Newcastle, "are not feasible".
"The airport must be located as near as possible to [the Sydney] market to, firstly, meet passenger demands and, secondly, to minimise the cost of the required transport," the board said. It also disputes Sydney Airport's claims of being able to handle passenger growth over the next 20 years.
Qantas has not previously said which site it prefers but has given its approval to the board's submission to Mr Albanese.
plus if badgeries is gone as is williamstown where exactly are they going to go?
i thought that richmond didnt have enough expansion space?
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.......... add higher pax movement charges and an 'infrastructure development' levy, an additional movement charge to cover upgrades necessary to cope with the winter conditions, a fuel transport levy to compensate Windsor and Baulkham Hills Councils for the extra potholes on the road, and comparable landing costs to YSSY ......oh and a levy for soundproofing up to 10,000 homes NW of Kellyville............plus a bit in the defence budget to convince the RAAF...
Govt's thinking seems a bit like City Councils who foolishly believed that toll roads are geat way to raise revenue, but then why bother with feasibility logic given that the motives are really more about a couple of thousand votes in State and Federal seats adjoining YSSY.
Here's hoping the Hon Minister sees fit to grasp a little more foresight and a little less political foreskin. - Maybe the mods can pull out the old thread and we can save some circular debate!
AT
Govt's thinking seems a bit like City Councils who foolishly believed that toll roads are geat way to raise revenue, but then why bother with feasibility logic given that the motives are really more about a couple of thousand votes in State and Federal seats adjoining YSSY.
Here's hoping the Hon Minister sees fit to grasp a little more foresight and a little less political foreskin. - Maybe the mods can pull out the old thread and we can save some circular debate!
AT
2nd airport in syd
what a wank... how about Air Services starts reducing the seperation into SYD and increase the amount of movements...big airports around the world can do it with an acceptable curfew agreement for the local population...(LHR, FRA and the list goes on)
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Too late to build a Practical 2nd airport
Sure you can built a second airport but will it be practical ?
The only practical places really would involve knocking down house and heritage
Sure you can built a second airport but will it be practical ?
The only practical places really would involve knocking down house and heritage
AQIS Boigu wrote
The separation into Sydney is based on 3NM or wake turb standard or ground infrastructure which controllers have little say over. -
The amount of movements and curfew is not fixed by Airservices but by the government.
Perhaps you can start again and confirm whether or not you think reduced separation will improve things.
how about Air Services starts reducing the seperation into SYD and increase the amount of movements
The amount of movements and curfew is not fixed by Airservices but by the government.
Perhaps you can start again and confirm whether or not you think reduced separation will improve things.
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A second airport may well become necessary, and should be planned for, but in the meantime, how about dropping the curfew at YSSY? The earlier thread discussed in depth methods that would minimise the noise footprint.
The NSW Labor Government is in an almost unique position where from a political perspective, they could safely drop the curfew. Why 'safely'? - because whatever they do, they couldn't be any more unpopular with the electorate than they are already.
Richmond might be the least bad option, but, as has been stated above and on the eaerlier thread, adopting it will involve overcoming enormous operational and political hurdles. Anyone who doubts the operational problems need only take a look at Google Earth to see three of the most obvious - the townships of Windsor and Richmond located quite literally at each end of the existing (inadequate for civil long haul ops) runway and the railway line that in in the way of any north/south runway. And the fog. And the terrain falling away immediately to the north of the base.
As for the political implications... a veritable minefield because of the many MacMansion-packed dormitory suburbs surrounding the immediate area and the totally inadequate feeder roads to the airfield.
If the decision had been made 30 years ago, when it should have been, at least they would have avoided the problem of the inevitable - and understandable - demands for a curfew from the many residents of the immediate area.
99% of the residents around the existing airport on Botany Bay have no such excuse. They moved there after the airport was established and many of them, when the aircraft using it were considerably noisier than today's high bypass jets.
The NSW Labor Government is in an almost unique position where from a political perspective, they could safely drop the curfew. Why 'safely'? - because whatever they do, they couldn't be any more unpopular with the electorate than they are already.
Richmond might be the least bad option, but, as has been stated above and on the eaerlier thread, adopting it will involve overcoming enormous operational and political hurdles. Anyone who doubts the operational problems need only take a look at Google Earth to see three of the most obvious - the townships of Windsor and Richmond located quite literally at each end of the existing (inadequate for civil long haul ops) runway and the railway line that in in the way of any north/south runway. And the fog. And the terrain falling away immediately to the north of the base.
As for the political implications... a veritable minefield because of the many MacMansion-packed dormitory suburbs surrounding the immediate area and the totally inadequate feeder roads to the airfield.
If the decision had been made 30 years ago, when it should have been, at least they would have avoided the problem of the inevitable - and understandable - demands for a curfew from the many residents of the immediate area.
99% of the residents around the existing airport on Botany Bay have no such excuse. They moved there after the airport was established and many of them, when the aircraft using it were considerably noisier than today's high bypass jets.
Parking is hard to come by at SYD now, if movements were increased or curfew lifted there would still be nowhere to put the planes!
I remember the last inquiry which decided on Badgerys creek, dont do another study, just f%^&^*( build it!!
I remember the last inquiry which decided on Badgerys creek, dont do another study, just f%^&^*( build it!!
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Not a second airport - need a New Airport
Flog off Mascot and Canberra to residential, Port Botany, light industrial and Resort (e.g. marina and tower on the threshold of 34L) development
Build a proper, 24 hour airport somewhere Golbourn way with upgraded road/rail links not just to Canberra and Sydney but also the Illawarra coast.
Expand Williamtown.
The money to be got from flogging off prime real estate and developing the port would fund a fair slice of the new airport.
Problem with a second airport is who would want to use it. Richmond makes sense only as a secondary airport serving Blue Mountains and Western Sydney; like Avalon, a new market, but small. International freight volume is inexorably tied to the holds of passenger aircraft, and any attempt to segregate International freighters would be costly.
The "Japanese" solution was floated ( ) years ago, but as it involved building taxyways over Botany Bay to runways which took out fish breeding backwaters, it was not well supported politically.
We will actually wind up with something that costs too much and delivers too little.
Build a proper, 24 hour airport somewhere Golbourn way with upgraded road/rail links not just to Canberra and Sydney but also the Illawarra coast.
Expand Williamtown.
The money to be got from flogging off prime real estate and developing the port would fund a fair slice of the new airport.
Problem with a second airport is who would want to use it. Richmond makes sense only as a secondary airport serving Blue Mountains and Western Sydney; like Avalon, a new market, but small. International freight volume is inexorably tied to the holds of passenger aircraft, and any attempt to segregate International freighters would be costly.
The "Japanese" solution was floated (
) years ago, but as it involved building taxyways over Botany Bay to runways which took out fish breeding backwaters, it was not well supported politically.We will actually wind up with something that costs too much and delivers too little.
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Flog off Mascot and Canberra to residential
Maquarie Bank already has their dirty little paws on that asset (SYD)and my understanding is that the purchase agreement and price precludes it from being used as anything OTHER than an airport for a very very long time.
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Originally Posted by Red Jet
my understanding is that the purchase agreement and price precludes it from being used as anything OTHER than an airport for a very very long time.
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Perhaps we should go back and look at the set of assumptions that have created the need for a second airport in the first place:
To me, passenger numbers doubling in 20 years is pretty much more of the 'unending economic growth' mantra that economists have peddled out over the past 10 years, and still peddle out, even in the midst of the 'greatest recession since the great depression'.
Here's another scenario. Passenger numbers stay relatively flat, and then decrease in line with GDP as the economy slams back into high oil prices created by the lack of excess supply over demand. Anyone remember oil over $150 last year? Well we had a reprieve temporarily down to the $30 range with massive demand destruction, but interesting that even before a 'recovery' we already have oil over $70!
What do you think will happen to the price when we really see a recovery in the economy?
My bet is that passenger numbers will decrease by about 1-2% per year on average in the near term, and that will probably increase to around 3% in the medium term. We will go back to the 70's, when air travel was the domain of the wealthy and the business elite.
Second Airport. Who's going to pay for it. The NSW Govt? Federal Govt? Sure, just go and borrow another billion of debt to throw on the budget.
In a rebuke to the Macquarie-controlled Sydney Airport's growth forecasts, the Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, has challenged its ability to handle a more than doubling of passengers over the next 20 years.
Here's another scenario. Passenger numbers stay relatively flat, and then decrease in line with GDP as the economy slams back into high oil prices created by the lack of excess supply over demand. Anyone remember oil over $150 last year? Well we had a reprieve temporarily down to the $30 range with massive demand destruction, but interesting that even before a 'recovery' we already have oil over $70!
What do you think will happen to the price when we really see a recovery in the economy?
My bet is that passenger numbers will decrease by about 1-2% per year on average in the near term, and that will probably increase to around 3% in the medium term. We will go back to the 70's, when air travel was the domain of the wealthy and the business elite.
Second Airport. Who's going to pay for it. The NSW Govt? Federal Govt? Sure, just go and borrow another billion of debt to throw on the budget.
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Trains???
I high speed train to Melbourne would ease the traffic.
The french and others have trains that travel at about 250 km/hr and they are great to travel on. Business men get on with their wireless laptops and mobile phones and just keep on working.
The french and others have trains that travel at about 250 km/hr and they are great to travel on. Business men get on with their wireless laptops and mobile phones and just keep on working.
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No second airport for Sydney
The Government sold a 100 per cent stake in Sydney Airport Corporation Limited (SACL) in June 2002 for AUD$4.233 billion to the Southern Cross Airports Corporation. This sale agreement of SACL approved a first refusal over the development and operation of the second Sydney airport for a period of 30 years.
I don't think that SACL will be quietly allowing a second airport to be built in the near future.
I don't think that SACL will be quietly allowing a second airport to be built in the near future.
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A second airport for NSW not SYDNEY !!!
Have to agree with newsensation...... that NSW needs a second airport and it should be WILLIAMTOWN.
Why, because from the Hawkesbury to the mid North coast (to Coffs'), west to the Central West (Dubbo, Tamworth, Armidale), live approx' 1.4m people, together with increasing commercial activity (light industrial, mining,vinyards, horse studs etc.) and an expanding tourist industry. The Hunter / Port Stephens areas are becoming a tourist destination in their own right !
So what of Will'y? First off (and this will upset some), remove the RAAF.
I would suggest to someplace like Narrabri ??? - plenty of airspace up there, which would free up a considerable ammount of airspace nth of Syd.
And what is the present day purpose of having fighter sqn's at Willy?
It was no doubt established to protect the Newcastle industrial infrastructure - no steel works or ship building there now and I don't think the Kiwis are going to sneak up on us and mount a significant attack !!
So with airborne refuelling and Early Warning Technology there is no good reason to have an RAAF presence at Willy.... of course Narrabri may not be such a pleasant place for the fighter boys to live as Nelson Bay .
Willy has plenty of open space to develop the airport with cross runways and with flight paths over sparsely populated areas or over water , Willy could operate without a curfew !!!
It is close to good tranport infrastructure; Pacitic hwy / New England hwy / Golden hwy and fast rail could easily be established to Sydney.
Willy would be ideal for International Airline to operate into, free of the (stupid) curfew restrictions of Syd. and would be perfect as an International airfreight hub.
Sydney does not need a second airport - it needs forward thinking and decisive Federal and Sate politicians..........
Role on...
Have to agree with newsensation...... that NSW needs a second airport and it should be WILLIAMTOWN.
Why, because from the Hawkesbury to the mid North coast (to Coffs'), west to the Central West (Dubbo, Tamworth, Armidale), live approx' 1.4m people, together with increasing commercial activity (light industrial, mining,vinyards, horse studs etc.) and an expanding tourist industry. The Hunter / Port Stephens areas are becoming a tourist destination in their own right !
So what of Will'y? First off (and this will upset some), remove the RAAF.
I would suggest to someplace like Narrabri ??? - plenty of airspace up there, which would free up a considerable ammount of airspace nth of Syd.
And what is the present day purpose of having fighter sqn's at Willy?
It was no doubt established to protect the Newcastle industrial infrastructure - no steel works or ship building there now and I don't think the Kiwis are going to sneak up on us and mount a significant attack !!
So with airborne refuelling and Early Warning Technology there is no good reason to have an RAAF presence at Willy.... of course Narrabri may not be such a pleasant place for the fighter boys to live as Nelson Bay .
Willy has plenty of open space to develop the airport with cross runways and with flight paths over sparsely populated areas or over water , Willy could operate without a curfew !!!
It is close to good tranport infrastructure; Pacitic hwy / New England hwy / Golden hwy and fast rail could easily be established to Sydney.
Willy would be ideal for International Airline to operate into, free of the (stupid) curfew restrictions of Syd. and would be perfect as an International airfreight hub.
Sydney does not need a second airport - it needs forward thinking and decisive Federal and Sate politicians..........
Role on...
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Willamtown already operates A320 & B737 domestic flights to service the 1.4 million people in the area, which is more then the south coast can get at Illawara (Wollongong).
Are we suggesting that a population base of 1.4 million people needs an International airport?
Fast Rail to Sydney. We are talking about NSW here aren't we? If they can't figure out how to build fast rail down to the Federal Capital, I doubt they would manage a fast rail network to service an international airport 2 hours north of, wait, another international airport.
And once again, where is the money coming from? There is NO MONEY now to maintain & operate the existing infrastructure.
All this talk of additional airports is just a smokescreen is distract us from the present contraction of the economy, by starting a conversation on the return of good old unending economic growth.
Are we suggesting that a population base of 1.4 million people needs an International airport?
Fast Rail to Sydney. We are talking about NSW here aren't we? If they can't figure out how to build fast rail down to the Federal Capital, I doubt they would manage a fast rail network to service an international airport 2 hours north of, wait, another international airport.
And once again, where is the money coming from? There is NO MONEY now to maintain & operate the existing infrastructure.
All this talk of additional airports is just a smokescreen is distract us from the present contraction of the economy, by starting a conversation on the return of good old unending economic growth.
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Falling leaf,
I am not suggesting that an Inter' airport at Willy would be to serve 1.4m "local" population, but would be a good basis to serve 6 or 8 m population of NSW by being a viable alternative to KSA
You ask where would the money come from?
I ask, how much has been allocated to aviation in the KRUDD handouts? 10's of millions in $900 payments and building unwanted school assembly halls and not a cent on aviation !!
Role on....
I am not suggesting that an Inter' airport at Willy would be to serve 1.4m "local" population, but would be a good basis to serve 6 or 8 m population of NSW by being a viable alternative to KSA
You ask where would the money come from?
I ask, how much has been allocated to aviation in the KRUDD handouts? 10's of millions in $900 payments and building unwanted school assembly halls and not a cent on aviation !!
Role on....