Howard breaks his silence: Work Choices should've stayed
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lowerlobe
If you continue to talk of individuals with their supposed success or failings there will, of course, never be agreement.
However,results are what count.
Are you saying that St Kevin & Labor are doing a great job and providing for the future of this country?
DK
If you continue to talk of individuals with their supposed success or failings there will, of course, never be agreement.
However,results are what count.
Are you saying that St Kevin & Labor are doing a great job and providing for the future of this country?
DK
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Now here's a queer thing......My mate the traffic controler rang up tonight. He is owed about 7k in wages lost under his 'workchoices' agreement. His bosses called him and all their employees in tonight for a meeting with the Union, and his company urged all the employers to join the union......his company urged all of the workers to join the union.....
He asked me why.....I of course have no friggin idea........
His employer asked him and all of his felllow employees, urged them...to join the Union....AWU.
Their thoughts are that by entering an EBA they can somehow remove themselves from an obligation to re pay all the lost wages incurred during his time on workchoices.......
It's really very confusing as to why a company would approach a union and say "We're holding a meeting and we're going to ask all our workforce to join your Union"
One thing remainds a constant though....a once lifelong Liberal voter will never vote for them again...
Oh....and if I find out why a private company would approach workers union and offer them all their workforce for sign up day, I'll let you know
He asked me why.....I of course have no friggin idea........
His employer asked him and all of his felllow employees, urged them...to join the Union....AWU.
Their thoughts are that by entering an EBA they can somehow remove themselves from an obligation to re pay all the lost wages incurred during his time on workchoices.......
It's really very confusing as to why a company would approach a union and say "We're holding a meeting and we're going to ask all our workforce to join your Union"
One thing remainds a constant though....a once lifelong Liberal voter will never vote for them again...
Oh....and if I find out why a private company would approach workers union and offer them all their workforce for sign up day, I'll let you know
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Jungle juice, the communism you refer to is the textbook or theoretical version, which anyone would have to say is a wonderful ideal. Unfortunately, it doesn’t allow for human nature and (like its cousin socialism) that rather large slice of society who want something for nothing. Every group of individuals who have practised the Marxist system since Comrades Trosky and Lenin have practised something rather radically different to that ideal.
Without exception, they have brooked no opposition, stolen and/or rigged elections (which was how the Bolsheviks originally came to power, with something like 25% of the popular vote, [as did Adolph Hitler, with about 30% of the vote]) and insisted – at the point of a gun or the secret policeman’s knock on the door at 3:00am – that everyone adhere absolutely to their interpretation of what’s good for ‘the people’ while the inner circle indulges themselves in a life of luxury. (I refer to the revered Chairman Mao and the current North Korean leadership as two prime examples of this trait.)
In practice, the system, with a very few exceptions, soon becomes one of ‘equal misery for all’. The theory’s great, but have you ever actually spoken to someone who has lived under a communist system? I have, and unless they belong to that ‘elect’ (NOT ‘elected’) inner circle, it soon becomes apparent why so many quite literally risked their lives to escape it. How many people – (I admit there were a few – a very, very few) – ‘escaped’ the Western capitalist democracies, with all their admitted faults, to live the life offered by any one of these communist systems?
Someone said earlier in the thread that fascism and communism were arch enemies because they were so different. I would posit that this is not so: I would suggest that they were and are arch enemies because they are so alike, just the two extremes of what is in fact the same system. The fascists are a little less sophisticated about it – they quite openly admit that a small industrial and commercial elite run the show. The communists pretend that ‘the people’ run the show, but in fact, very few of ‘the people’ have any say in anything – and any who try usually find there’s a knock on the door at 3:00am which results in a quick trip to the Gulag or worse.
Now, what this has to do with John Howard speaking up about Work Choices, I’m not really sure – except that ‘fascist’ is the pejorative term beloved of the Left for anyone not enlightened enough to see that their version of society is the one we should all love and follow.
I’ll have to retire from the debate, at least with you, jungle juice, because it’s simply not possible to debate the issue with someone coming from such an utterly different place to me as you are.
Without exception, they have brooked no opposition, stolen and/or rigged elections (which was how the Bolsheviks originally came to power, with something like 25% of the popular vote, [as did Adolph Hitler, with about 30% of the vote]) and insisted – at the point of a gun or the secret policeman’s knock on the door at 3:00am – that everyone adhere absolutely to their interpretation of what’s good for ‘the people’ while the inner circle indulges themselves in a life of luxury. (I refer to the revered Chairman Mao and the current North Korean leadership as two prime examples of this trait.)
In practice, the system, with a very few exceptions, soon becomes one of ‘equal misery for all’. The theory’s great, but have you ever actually spoken to someone who has lived under a communist system? I have, and unless they belong to that ‘elect’ (NOT ‘elected’) inner circle, it soon becomes apparent why so many quite literally risked their lives to escape it. How many people – (I admit there were a few – a very, very few) – ‘escaped’ the Western capitalist democracies, with all their admitted faults, to live the life offered by any one of these communist systems?
Someone said earlier in the thread that fascism and communism were arch enemies because they were so different. I would posit that this is not so: I would suggest that they were and are arch enemies because they are so alike, just the two extremes of what is in fact the same system. The fascists are a little less sophisticated about it – they quite openly admit that a small industrial and commercial elite run the show. The communists pretend that ‘the people’ run the show, but in fact, very few of ‘the people’ have any say in anything – and any who try usually find there’s a knock on the door at 3:00am which results in a quick trip to the Gulag or worse.
Now, what this has to do with John Howard speaking up about Work Choices, I’m not really sure – except that ‘fascist’ is the pejorative term beloved of the Left for anyone not enlightened enough to see that their version of society is the one we should all love and follow.
I’ll have to retire from the debate, at least with you, jungle juice, because it’s simply not possible to debate the issue with someone coming from such an utterly different place to me as you are.
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Turnbull = Bowl of rice,bowl of rice, bowl of rice, and so on until next election when the leadership changes again.. and then
HOCKEY/ABBOT/COSTELO/MINCHIN/(WHOEVER FROM THE NICHOLSON INSTITUTE..from here on known as Liberal party) state after AND ONLY AFTER (IF) they won an election....that once again the vast majority face a life time of Bowl of rice bowl of rice, bowl of rice Sunday Liberals spit some sauce in your bowl, for which you should be eternally thankfull that they wasted saliva on you.....then...bowl of rice bowl of rice bowl of rice....
10 hours a day is not enough,,,,now you must work 13 hours a day for a bowl of rice, bowl of rice, bowl of rice....come Sunday Kindly Mr Liberal leader will hack gob of sauce in your bowl...AND YOU SHOULD BE LUCKY!
Come Monday though, 13 hrs bowl of rice, bowl of rice, bowl of rice, can't wait until a liberal party member spits used sauce in my bowl as a Sunday treat!!...until then 13hrs bowl of rice...bowl of rice
You know its true.......If we can't get the local populace to work for a bowl of rice a day, then we'll take our business offshore to those who will....threatening the jobs of the people who won't work for a bowl of rice a day, so leave them unemployed (or try harder to pay them a bowl of rice a day) pay them a bowl of rice a day, ultimately you deprive a society the means to pay for the very goods you're trying to spruik.
But it'll never be your fault......never...if only those serfs agreed to work for a bowl of rice a day..maybe..maybe ..the last bit of their if any expendable income could have been spent on supporting your unsustainable position of raping a populace....
Thank Christ I do not have to depend on a bunch of out of control rampant vampires who disguise their morally corrupt greed under the pretence that if they conducted business any other way everyone would suffer.....
Thankfully we can see beyond it...
HOCKEY/ABBOT/COSTELO/MINCHIN/(WHOEVER FROM THE NICHOLSON INSTITUTE..from here on known as Liberal party) state after AND ONLY AFTER (IF) they won an election....that once again the vast majority face a life time of Bowl of rice bowl of rice, bowl of rice Sunday Liberals spit some sauce in your bowl, for which you should be eternally thankfull that they wasted saliva on you.....then...bowl of rice bowl of rice bowl of rice....
10 hours a day is not enough,,,,now you must work 13 hours a day for a bowl of rice, bowl of rice, bowl of rice....come Sunday Kindly Mr Liberal leader will hack gob of sauce in your bowl...AND YOU SHOULD BE LUCKY!
Come Monday though, 13 hrs bowl of rice, bowl of rice, bowl of rice, can't wait until a liberal party member spits used sauce in my bowl as a Sunday treat!!...until then 13hrs bowl of rice...bowl of rice
You know its true.......If we can't get the local populace to work for a bowl of rice a day, then we'll take our business offshore to those who will....threatening the jobs of the people who won't work for a bowl of rice a day, so leave them unemployed (or try harder to pay them a bowl of rice a day) pay them a bowl of rice a day, ultimately you deprive a society the means to pay for the very goods you're trying to spruik.
But it'll never be your fault......never...if only those serfs agreed to work for a bowl of rice a day..maybe..maybe ..the last bit of their if any expendable income could have been spent on supporting your unsustainable position of raping a populace....
Thank Christ I do not have to depend on a bunch of out of control rampant vampires who disguise their morally corrupt greed under the pretence that if they conducted business any other way everyone would suffer.....
Thankfully we can see beyond it...
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lowerlobe
If you continue to talk of individuals with their supposed success or failings there will, of course, never be agreement.
However,results are what count.
Are you saying that St Kevin & Labor are doing a great job and providing for the future of this country?
DK
If you continue to talk of individuals with their supposed success or failings there will, of course, never be agreement.
However,results are what count.
Are you saying that St Kevin & Labor are doing a great job and providing for the future of this country?
DK
Why do Howard supporters talk in absolutes and then contradictory terms...
You tell me if I continue to talk about individuals we will never agree....
Then in the same breath you facetiously ask me about an individual?
You wonder why people like me deride Liberal supporters assessment of politics?
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Pass A Tissue
Hey Frozzo, your hero Johnny induced my parents into selling there blue ribbon belt Bondi home to prop up ther super. $1m tax free or there abouts. My folks have been asking lately whether or not Johnny and his mate George 'W' had touched on the subject of their respective economies being made of false creative accountancy and whether an immenent collapse was inevitable. No, didn't see this crap coming, did they. Duped, like all us liberal voters. Trolls we are.
Damn, wonder what the unemployment queue would look like now, given work choices and human nature of employers to do the right thing. 8 weeks pay and you are on your own. Dogs are greedy around a dinner table. Even after they are fed.
Wish John was back, Geoff too! Screw the workers, who do they think they are! Labour, for the little people, but what about us, we are starving!
Damn, wonder what the unemployment queue would look like now, given work choices and human nature of employers to do the right thing. 8 weeks pay and you are on your own. Dogs are greedy around a dinner table. Even after they are fed.
Wish John was back, Geoff too! Screw the workers, who do they think they are! Labour, for the little people, but what about us, we are starving!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Hey Frozzo, your hero Johnny induced my parents into selling there blue ribbon belt Bondi home to prop up ther super
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Wiley,
Thats incredible Sherlock,because if you read my first line you would have grasped that
At no point was I giving communism an indorsement in fact far from it.In reality I was showing the folly of your statement that a left wing fascist was a communist and that you could or do not understand the fundamental difference between the two ideologies.
Probably more than you because my wife is Russian and moved here with her parents.Their extended family still live in Russia and I have more experience than most with the utter contradiction and falseness of the communist system.Personally I do not find any real benefits ideologically speaking or otherwise of communism.In fact I find it just as just as self serving and repulsive as I do of far right politics.
However,it is your complete lack of understanding of the term internationalist that shows your ignorance of the ideological difference between fascism and communism.As such this debate is not only an exercise in futility but a waste of time.
Jungle juice, the communism you refer to is the textbook or theoretical version,
I was talking in an ideological sense.
have you ever actually spoken to someone who has lived under a communist system?
However,it is your complete lack of understanding of the term internationalist that shows your ignorance of the ideological difference between fascism and communism.As such this debate is not only an exercise in futility but a waste of time.
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Funny how so many Australian aviation related threads (which are arguably more related to RPT than GA and Charter) get moved out of Reporting Points and this thread does not get moved to Jet Blast.
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jungle juice, first you tell us that "communists are principled internationalists", and then, when your tailplane is shot to ribbons by people pointing out how asinine that comment is, you tell they're "theoretically principled" but in fact, really bad people. If you think you've scored a point with any reader here with your last post, I'd suggest you increase your meds.
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Andu,
It's not too often we see two philistine's posting on the same page but Wiley and yourself have managed wonderfully.
By showing that not only are both of you unable to understand the basic differences in political ideology you are also unable to mount a successful rebuttal.
It's not too often we see two philistine's posting on the same page but Wiley and yourself have managed wonderfully.
By showing that not only are both of you unable to understand the basic differences in political ideology you are also unable to mount a successful rebuttal.
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Here to Help wrote:
Couldn't agree more - I'm speculating our esteemed Moderators' been quarantined with Swine flu since Rudd's spin merchants tapped into PPrune with this one.
Here's a reality check - the words inept, hasty, ill-considered and naive come to mind. The one thing Rudd's government has done really well - manipulate the media with spin and hype.
(Adelaide Advertiser 01 June 2009)
Funny how so many Australian aviation related threads (which are arguably more related to RPT than GA and Charter) get moved out of Reporting Points and this thread does not get moved to Jet Blast.
Here's a reality check - the words inept, hasty, ill-considered and naive come to mind. The one thing Rudd's government has done really well - manipulate the media with spin and hype.
(Adelaide Advertiser 01 June 2009)
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tax payer
Medicare struggling; Australia headed towards US user-pays system | National News | News.com.au
We pay tax to hand out money to people that don't want a job, to government junkets, to overlapping of state and federal governments and to $900 gift vouchers at liquorland. I don't care which side you bat for but a medical system such as that in the US really is the end. I've lost hope in someone from either side turning up and cleaning out the waste of tax payers money. Rudd looked like he was going to do it but in the end he's just like the rest of them. You'd think in a time like this that radical restructuring would take place. Its not and if its not going to happen now it never will happen.
We pay tax to hand out money to people that don't want a job, to government junkets, to overlapping of state and federal governments and to $900 gift vouchers at liquorland. I don't care which side you bat for but a medical system such as that in the US really is the end. I've lost hope in someone from either side turning up and cleaning out the waste of tax payers money. Rudd looked like he was going to do it but in the end he's just like the rest of them. You'd think in a time like this that radical restructuring would take place. Its not and if its not going to happen now it never will happen.
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`Reflecting the Government's determination to stare down the unions at the coming ALP national conference, Mr Ferguson, MP, has fuelled tensions by accusing building unionists of indefensible behaviour.
"I would have thought that in the middle of the global financial crisis our priority is keeping people employed, not changes to the industrial regulatory system," the Resources Minister told The Weekend Australian.
"This Labor Government learned early on that for working families, having a job is far more preferable than being unemployed.'
Hmmmmm? I seem to recall a former Prime Minister name of John Howard PM, stating this - perhaps this Labor are starting to grasp some realities of a real world and maybe, just maybe, Mr Howard well and truly understood what he was stating!
DK
"I would have thought that in the middle of the global financial crisis our priority is keeping people employed, not changes to the industrial regulatory system," the Resources Minister told The Weekend Australian.
"This Labor Government learned early on that for working families, having a job is far more preferable than being unemployed.'
Hmmmmm? I seem to recall a former Prime Minister name of John Howard PM, stating this - perhaps this Labor are starting to grasp some realities of a real world and maybe, just maybe, Mr Howard well and truly understood what he was stating!
DK
Hmmmm, Dark Knight, since it seems you are grasping "some realities of the real world", I would expect that you will go to your employer first thing in the morning and implor him to reduce your salary to a sensible amount given the current economic situation. if you dont do that, then your post has no credibility
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Arnold E; a rather simplistic, myopic reply The party responsible for introduction of individual awards now introduces legislation returning industrial relations to yesteryear equivalents with the unions wanting to go even further.
Not only does Martin Ferguson, MP, ex ACTU head honcho, condemn the union push but is accompanied in his remarks by Ms Gillard and now Federal Cabinet Minister and former ACTU president Simon Crean has accused unions of pursuing a narrow agenda, bluntly rejecting their push to wind back the powers of the building industry watchdog.
Mr Crean joined Julia Gillard and Martin Ferguson in rejecting the union movement's bid for a second wave of workplace laws.
It appears some in the Labor party do recognise having a job and therefore, an income, is highly preferable to unemployment as former Prime Minister John Howard stated.
Do I presume AE, you disagree with this statement?
It would appear some in the current Labor government recognise some realities rejecting the ACTU's current `Alice in Wonderland' wish list and push for greater union presence throughout the workplace.
Afterall, it was a Labor government which introduced individual contracts resulting in pilots, today, paying for their own manuals, uniforms, employment interviews, aircraft ratings, etc. Some sleeping in their cars or residing in the local caravan park whilst training for a rating in the `hope' of getting a job which will pay a subsistence pittance called a salary.
The current new industrial relation laws are not necessarily going to improve this and certainly not in the short term regardless of the ACTU pie in the sky wish list.
DK
ps>> as a current card carrying union member with a fair bit of experience in more than a few union positions including successful negotiations at the highest level, rule one was never to kill the Golden Goose; couple this with a little common sense, proportion, worldly realities with sound membership support then much can be achieved.
Not only does Martin Ferguson, MP, ex ACTU head honcho, condemn the union push but is accompanied in his remarks by Ms Gillard and now Federal Cabinet Minister and former ACTU president Simon Crean has accused unions of pursuing a narrow agenda, bluntly rejecting their push to wind back the powers of the building industry watchdog.
Mr Crean joined Julia Gillard and Martin Ferguson in rejecting the union movement's bid for a second wave of workplace laws.
It appears some in the Labor party do recognise having a job and therefore, an income, is highly preferable to unemployment as former Prime Minister John Howard stated.
Do I presume AE, you disagree with this statement?
It would appear some in the current Labor government recognise some realities rejecting the ACTU's current `Alice in Wonderland' wish list and push for greater union presence throughout the workplace.
Afterall, it was a Labor government which introduced individual contracts resulting in pilots, today, paying for their own manuals, uniforms, employment interviews, aircraft ratings, etc. Some sleeping in their cars or residing in the local caravan park whilst training for a rating in the `hope' of getting a job which will pay a subsistence pittance called a salary.
The current new industrial relation laws are not necessarily going to improve this and certainly not in the short term regardless of the ACTU pie in the sky wish list.
DK
ps>> as a current card carrying union member with a fair bit of experience in more than a few union positions including successful negotiations at the highest level, rule one was never to kill the Golden Goose; couple this with a little common sense, proportion, worldly realities with sound membership support then much can be achieved.
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Interesting quote from Moderator Tail Wheel in another (new and now closed) thread:
That thread actually had a little bit to do with aviation (ie about the activities of well known and influential aviator) and only lasted 2hr 17min, whereas this thread has been allowed to continue in DG&P for 169 posts and 10 days with no aviation content.
Aviation content = zilch.
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HtH: read para 7 in above post. (must be an increasing amount of myopia within the aviation community?)
The results of how government handle the economy & industrial relations will have a huge effect on aviation and jobs within the aviation industry.
DK
The results of how government handle the economy & industrial relations will have a huge effect on aviation and jobs within the aviation industry.
DK