Indonesian Pilots to strike over crash
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Indonesian Pilots to strike over crash
"www.thewest.com.au
Indonesian pilots are threatening to strike in protest at a court’s decision to jail a Garuda captain for negligence over a crash that killed 21 people, including five Australians.
Stephanus Gerrardus, chief of the Garuda Pilots’ Association, said today Komar’s trial was “a mess” and it had set a dangerous precedent of criminalising pilots.
“Our main concern is this decision could actually disturb aviation safety,” Gerrardus said.
“Imagine how hard it would be for a pilot to perform his duty when he’s burdened with something like this.
“It makes pilots doubtful, and could lead to mistakes.
“If we don’t get any attention on this, no correction on this, we will not hesitate to strike.”
WHAT THE???
How can it be "hard to perform duties when burdened with this... and "it makes pilots doubtful and could lead to mistakes??"
Follow your SOP's and use some common sense... oh, forgot who we were talking about..
Indonesian pilots are threatening to strike in protest at a court’s decision to jail a Garuda captain for negligence over a crash that killed 21 people, including five Australians.
Stephanus Gerrardus, chief of the Garuda Pilots’ Association, said today Komar’s trial was “a mess” and it had set a dangerous precedent of criminalising pilots.
“Our main concern is this decision could actually disturb aviation safety,” Gerrardus said.
“Imagine how hard it would be for a pilot to perform his duty when he’s burdened with something like this.
“It makes pilots doubtful, and could lead to mistakes.
“If we don’t get any attention on this, no correction on this, we will not hesitate to strike.”
WHAT THE???
How can it be "hard to perform duties when burdened with this... and "it makes pilots doubtful and could lead to mistakes??"
Follow your SOP's and use some common sense... oh, forgot who we were talking about..
Evertonian
“Our main concern is this decision could actually disturb aviation safety,” Gerrardus said.
(Bad Buster! Back in yer box!)
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Whereas a strike might actually improve it!!!
If the strike is 100% and as long as the engineers aren't allowed to taxi any of the aircraft, Indonesian Aviation will be transformed.
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Should I change it to Jimmied or Snappa?
But how about Hyman Hunter.....
I think though that someone else's post is a result of them forgetting to take their medication...
Back to the thread though and I think it's fantastic to see what lengths some pilot associations will go to so as to increase safety in aviation.....
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The imprisonment of the pilot is bad for safety but not for the reasons stated. Sending the pilot to gaol lets the airline and its management off the hook.
Did he have a history of this behaviour? What had the training section done about it? What sort of CRM training was given? Was any emergency language training given to FO's?
These questions do not now have to be answered as it was all the fault of a criminal pilot.
Worse still, the system may not have been changed for the better.
Did he have a history of this behaviour? What had the training section done about it? What sort of CRM training was given? Was any emergency language training given to FO's?
These questions do not now have to be answered as it was all the fault of a criminal pilot.
Worse still, the system may not have been changed for the better.
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more towards the point, should pilots be held accountable for negligence? should taxi drivers? should truck drivers?
I understand where he's coming from but I don't agree. duty of care baby
I understand where he's coming from but I don't agree. duty of care baby
Ok now that all the one liners and shoot from the hip "high almighty" comments have been made could we possibly discuss this issue with the importance it needs.
We discussed this very incident at a recent CRM course and most attendees were most uncomfortable with the issues at either end of this incidents spectrum.
On face value the incident was unbelievable in the degree of extremes that were shown by this crew in managing (or not) this aircraft.
Look a bit deeper and you might just find a few systemic issues that we in our ivory towers would wince at.
GPWS training, CRM training, SOPs were all part of this accident.
Is it productive to jail a pilot in such circumstances or any accident.
Did he in fact get a fair trial.
Were issues such as Garuda's SOP's ,GPWS training discussed and understood by the jury of judges.
In a country like Indonesia are CRM issues even understood let alone accepted.
Was the pilot suffering from physiological effects from stress and was this raised and or understood.
I am not here to defend this crew but beware the tiger when you unlock this particular legal cage.
At what point will YOU defend a pilot here in Australia from legal action?
What parameters will YOU apply before he is thrown to the tigers?
What penalty will YOU accept as being fair?
I am conscious that many people died on this flight and any comments will be read with a high degree of emotion particularly by those directly affected but I for one am glad that I wasn't sitting in the Judges' seat.
Please don't turn this into an Indonesian Aviation bashing thread - it's a little more important than that.
As for the name calling and criticism of a particular posters names - for heaven's sake take it away and make your petty attacks via PM - the rest of us really don't want to listen.
The moderators have allowed the names it's their train set and anyone reading this website specifically typed in the PPrune address.
Go back to face book if that is all you have to offer to the discussion.
We discussed this very incident at a recent CRM course and most attendees were most uncomfortable with the issues at either end of this incidents spectrum.
On face value the incident was unbelievable in the degree of extremes that were shown by this crew in managing (or not) this aircraft.
Look a bit deeper and you might just find a few systemic issues that we in our ivory towers would wince at.
GPWS training, CRM training, SOPs were all part of this accident.
Is it productive to jail a pilot in such circumstances or any accident.
Did he in fact get a fair trial.
Were issues such as Garuda's SOP's ,GPWS training discussed and understood by the jury of judges.
In a country like Indonesia are CRM issues even understood let alone accepted.
Was the pilot suffering from physiological effects from stress and was this raised and or understood.
I am not here to defend this crew but beware the tiger when you unlock this particular legal cage.
At what point will YOU defend a pilot here in Australia from legal action?
What parameters will YOU apply before he is thrown to the tigers?
What penalty will YOU accept as being fair?
I am conscious that many people died on this flight and any comments will be read with a high degree of emotion particularly by those directly affected but I for one am glad that I wasn't sitting in the Judges' seat.
Please don't turn this into an Indonesian Aviation bashing thread - it's a little more important than that.
As for the name calling and criticism of a particular posters names - for heaven's sake take it away and make your petty attacks via PM - the rest of us really don't want to listen.
The moderators have allowed the names it's their train set and anyone reading this website specifically typed in the PPrune address.
Go back to face book if that is all you have to offer to the discussion.
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Buster....
I should have mentioned your spelling mistake.....
It should have been Snapper.....not Snappa
Yes...Yes and Yes...
Perhaps this was what happened and he was the fall guy for a system that is fundamentally flawed and he was given a relatively light sentence for falling on his sword....
If you look at other sentences given out by the Indonesian Judiciary you will see some glaring inconsistencies....
I should have mentioned your spelling mistake.....
It should have been Snapper.....not Snappa
should pilots be held accountable for negligence? should taxi drivers? should truck drivers?
Sending the pilot to gaol lets the airline and its management off the hook.
If you look at other sentences given out by the Indonesian Judiciary you will see some glaring inconsistencies....
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Pharoah
You obviously don't get it at all.
This accident makes no sense if you just look at the pilots actions during the final stage of the landing.There must have been a reason why he ignored warnings and operated so far outside the envelope.The only obvious reasons are incredibly poor training or mental aberation. If it was the latter then under most legal systems, that is a defence.
And then there is the complete failure of the F/Os input.That can only happen if the whole system is failing or the F/O was also incompetent.Whatever the facts the Captain should have expected support, possibly very positive support from his F/O.If due to local culture that support was not allowable, then its the system that is wrong, not the individual Captain
I'm with other posters on this, placing the pilot in jail allows the whole accident and the system that caused it to be swept under the carpet.
Over my career I have seen and known of Captains with mental problems (some quite small but other serious) have them identified and overidden by the rest of the crew and have seen mistakes corrected by all crewmembers. Its part of aviation. It seems in this case that the system wasn't in place or didn't work. Whatever happened it is not purely the Captains problem. To pick on one person who clearly had a "problem" at the time is counter productive to safety
You obviously don't get it at all.
This accident makes no sense if you just look at the pilots actions during the final stage of the landing.There must have been a reason why he ignored warnings and operated so far outside the envelope.The only obvious reasons are incredibly poor training or mental aberation. If it was the latter then under most legal systems, that is a defence.
And then there is the complete failure of the F/Os input.That can only happen if the whole system is failing or the F/O was also incompetent.Whatever the facts the Captain should have expected support, possibly very positive support from his F/O.If due to local culture that support was not allowable, then its the system that is wrong, not the individual Captain
I'm with other posters on this, placing the pilot in jail allows the whole accident and the system that caused it to be swept under the carpet.
Over my career I have seen and known of Captains with mental problems (some quite small but other serious) have them identified and overidden by the rest of the crew and have seen mistakes corrected by all crewmembers. Its part of aviation. It seems in this case that the system wasn't in place or didn't work. Whatever happened it is not purely the Captains problem. To pick on one person who clearly had a "problem" at the time is counter productive to safety
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"The only obvious reasons are incredibly poor training or mental aberation."
Or tunnel vision, or cultural conditioning, or simple anger, or ... You need to cast your net a bit wider if you truly want to examine the issues objectively.
The captain wasn't the only link in this disastrous chain, but he was plainly the person with the final authority and responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight. Before the flight he would have worn both of those as badges of honour, as we all do.
In the absence of causal factors outside the pilot's knowledge and control, the ultimate responsibility rests in the same place as the ultimate authority, as it must.
Or tunnel vision, or cultural conditioning, or simple anger, or ... You need to cast your net a bit wider if you truly want to examine the issues objectively.
The captain wasn't the only link in this disastrous chain, but he was plainly the person with the final authority and responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight. Before the flight he would have worn both of those as badges of honour, as we all do.
In the absence of causal factors outside the pilot's knowledge and control, the ultimate responsibility rests in the same place as the ultimate authority, as it must.
Last edited by Unhinged; 28th Apr 2009 at 02:22.
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The imprisonment of the pilot is bad for safety but not for the reasons stated. Sending the pilot to gaol lets the airline and its management off the hook.
A pilot who, through gross negligence, causes death and injury should be held accountable for their actions. The 'Just Culture' thing can only work if acts of gross negligence are deemed unacceptable.
The airline's management and systems aren't let off the hook because a pilot goes to jail. They must ensure that their procedures and systems are modified such that all of their crew understand that intentional non compliant behaviour is completely unacceptable.
We all make mistakes and forget things but an intentional non compliant act must be punished.
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This accident makes no sense if you just look at the pilots actions during the final stage of the landing.There must have been a reason why he ignored warnings and operated so far outside the envelope.
I am sure there are many reasons for this behaviour and clearly there are faults with the system, but his behaviour in the final stages of the flight are completely unacceptable.
He didnt just break a couple of rules, his behaviour was grossly negligent and directly caused the deaths of 21 human beings.
Its good to see the GPA speaking out whether or not I agree with them. Where have they been all along? Why have they been so quiet on the matter in general and the wider issues with Air Safety in Indonesia?
Like moths to a flame such a subject brings out the 'experts'.
I can only sit back and wonder at some of the comments that have been made today and the thought processes that produced such rubbish.
"These people" are much more capable than some of the idiots that have access to a computer in Australia.
Jesus Wept!
I can only sit back and wonder at some of the comments that have been made today and the thought processes that produced such rubbish.
"These people" are much more capable than some of the idiots that have access to a computer in Australia.
Jesus Wept!
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Absolute crap, Ad-astra!
What extensive and direct dealings have you had with them to make such a brazen statement I would ask? If your 'location' is much to go on I would suspect not nearly enough.
I would suggest getting some personal perspective from the guys at Hong Kong Express or Hong Kong Airlines and you just may give some of the previous posters their dues.
What extensive and direct dealings have you had with them to make such a brazen statement I would ask? If your 'location' is much to go on I would suspect not nearly enough.
I would suggest getting some personal perspective from the guys at Hong Kong Express or Hong Kong Airlines and you just may give some of the previous posters their dues.
There must have been a reason why he ignored warnings and operated so far outside the envelope
