QF2061 diversion 23APR
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QF2061 diversion 23APR
Hi good people.
QF2061 tonight MEL DPO has diverted to LST due to power loss at DPO airport.
Big deal you say, BUT - where was the backup genny that used to kick in if this happened?
I have had several instances over a good few years where the genny kicked in after a grid failure and runway lights as well as adequate terminal lighting were kept live.
There was one failure where the AN and EW F27s were around 10 mins out and the backup failed. Wilkie from AN and I had a flare path laid within 25 mins while the F27s circulated overhead. There were a few interesting moments when a couple of the flame pots exploded due to a little overspeeding on the ungoverned Toyota tug.
This begs the question, what happens if the DPO lighting fails, backup does not work as tonight and DPO with no holding required is surrounded by BWT (WNY) LST HBA MEL MGB etc all clagged in? It does happen.
Who is going to hold Tas Ports accountable for the fact that their backup failed and why were the ground handlers not versed in laying a flare path?
On a night like tonight, the expensive diversion worked. If there were more factors in the mix it could have been a disaster.
I just find this a distressing lack of initiative, but you get what you pay for.
Best all
EWL
QF2061 tonight MEL DPO has diverted to LST due to power loss at DPO airport.
Big deal you say, BUT - where was the backup genny that used to kick in if this happened?
I have had several instances over a good few years where the genny kicked in after a grid failure and runway lights as well as adequate terminal lighting were kept live.
There was one failure where the AN and EW F27s were around 10 mins out and the backup failed. Wilkie from AN and I had a flare path laid within 25 mins while the F27s circulated overhead. There were a few interesting moments when a couple of the flame pots exploded due to a little overspeeding on the ungoverned Toyota tug.
This begs the question, what happens if the DPO lighting fails, backup does not work as tonight and DPO with no holding required is surrounded by BWT (WNY) LST HBA MEL MGB etc all clagged in? It does happen.
Who is going to hold Tas Ports accountable for the fact that their backup failed and why were the ground handlers not versed in laying a flare path?
On a night like tonight, the expensive diversion worked. If there were more factors in the mix it could have been a disaster.
I just find this a distressing lack of initiative, but you get what you pay for.
Best all
EWL
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Can happen anywhere EWL. Happened last year when i was in AKL. Some backup power did kick in, not all of it - partially lit airport, and the tower wasn't sure if it was reliable or not (all backup indications were not showing as 100% reliable). They were using hand held radios.
Whole area (surrounding suburbs ) went black.
That was an airport capable of CAT III - so i wouldnt hold my breath for Australia, where pretty much every airport is a backwater! (in Airservices eyes)
Whole area (surrounding suburbs ) went black.
That was an airport capable of CAT III - so i wouldnt hold my breath for Australia, where pretty much every airport is a backwater! (in Airservices eyes)
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Same case here Blue.
There were in my day 2 backup systems. Backup genny, and flare path as a last and not too hard to do measure.
Backup genny failed (probaby had not been checked since FSU was closed) and obviously nobody knew how to access the flare pots or didn't want to do it because it was hard work.
This just shows how the industry is going to hell.
If every alternate was under minima would anyone have even thought of a flare path?
Brave New World my fat arse
Best
EWL
There were in my day 2 backup systems. Backup genny, and flare path as a last and not too hard to do measure.
Backup genny failed (probaby had not been checked since FSU was closed) and obviously nobody knew how to access the flare pots or didn't want to do it because it was hard work.
This just shows how the industry is going to hell.
If every alternate was under minima would anyone have even thought of a flare path?
Brave New World my fat arse
Best
EWL
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why were the ground handlers not versed in laying a flare path?
I'd be surprised if ops at any major airport in the country could lay a flare path, or would have the equipment to do so.
AFAIK, if there's a catastophic lighting failure and the backup power doesn't work, the SOP is to close and divert any traffic.
Happy to be proven wrong by other posters, but that's the procedure here, for better or for worse.
As you say, this is why checking the gennys regularly is so very important.
Worrals
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Yep Worrals
It is a sad state of affairs. It is not too hard to lay a flare path, and should be a standard fallback procedure.
We were not too sure about what we did as we had never been schooled in that, but if a flare pot explodes on a tug hauled barrow at 30kph the flash goes out backwards. One did wait for Wilkie and removed his eyebrows!
The dayt will come where everything else is closed and the power out/genny shagged will happen - and nobody will have a blind clue what to do.
That is the point.
Best
EWL
It is a sad state of affairs. It is not too hard to lay a flare path, and should be a standard fallback procedure.
We were not too sure about what we did as we had never been schooled in that, but if a flare pot explodes on a tug hauled barrow at 30kph the flash goes out backwards. One did wait for Wilkie and removed his eyebrows!
The dayt will come where everything else is closed and the power out/genny shagged will happen - and nobody will have a blind clue what to do.
That is the point.
Best
EWL
Bottums Up
A colleague landed at GOV some years ago, no one knowing that the lighting was on SBY Power. The SBY Power failed just after commencing the subsequent takeoff roll. 
Can be quite susceptible to lightning strikes, can GOV.
Can be quite susceptible to lightning strikes, can GOV.
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EWL,
Absolutely, and thanks for the advice; perish the thought I might need it. We were only discussing flare paths the other day, I'll not post the average age of those in the know because it might incriminate you 
Can Do Attitude is very quickly dying out, unfortunately.
P.S. Still working on Marseille...
Absolutely, and thanks for the advice; perish the thought I might need it
. We were only discussing flare paths the other day, I'll not post the average age of those in the know because it might incriminate you Can Do Attitude is very quickly dying out, unfortunately.
P.S. Still working on Marseille...
I am not sure many RPT operators would be satisfied with using a flare path unless it was an absolute last resort. A couple of years back there was an issue at ZNE when the lighting failed and when offered the flare path, that the airport operator was in the process of laying out, the crew advised they would divert to PBO.
Power failures are quite rare, more often than not it's pilots who can't use PAL systems.
Power failures are quite rare, more often than not it's pilots who can't use PAL systems.
As you say, this is why checking the gennys regularly is so very important.
Power failures are quite rare, more often than not it's pilots who can't use PAL systems.
Next time you are in ZNE Bloggsy have a look at the 3rd lighting tower from the right, it's where the new over-ride switch is...so the ground staff can locate it.
You should remember that the only time the over-ride switch will work is if it's a failure of the PAL unit itself, in a power fault situation it ain't going to bring the lights back on! More often than not it simply involves the airport staff driving close enough to the airport and turning on the lights via the radio in the car, cos the turkeys in the plane can't use the PAL system...
And in regards to DPO even with the best backup power system isn't it possible that sometimes **** just happens, due to no fault of any system or anyone, and airlines need to plan for diversion? Like if an aircraft goes tits up on the runway and cant be moved.
You should remember that the only time the over-ride switch will work is if it's a failure of the PAL unit itself, in a power fault situation it ain't going to bring the lights back on! More often than not it simply involves the airport staff driving close enough to the airport and turning on the lights via the radio in the car, cos the turkeys in the plane can't use the PAL system...
And in regards to DPO even with the best backup power system isn't it possible that sometimes **** just happens, due to no fault of any system or anyone, and airlines need to plan for diversion? Like if an aircraft goes tits up on the runway and cant be moved.
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Can remember when a certain southern airfield strip was illuminated by headlights of vehicles driven by town's residents for an emergency flight in from the ice. A/c may have been a Globemaster (1960's?). Injured worker on board and they wanted to get him to the closest hospital.
Would never happen now. Imagine the 'please explain' for allowing non-security-cleared vehicles & pesonnel airside in such vast numbers.
Don't recall, even back then, being able to lay a flarepath. Sometimes the oldest tricks in the book are those that can save the day. Trouble is, those that remember the 'old tricks' are becoming fewer. Maybe we need to resurrect some of those 'tricks'.
Le Vieux
Would never happen now. Imagine the 'please explain' for allowing non-security-cleared vehicles & pesonnel airside in such vast numbers.
Don't recall, even back then, being able to lay a flarepath. Sometimes the oldest tricks in the book are those that can save the day. Trouble is, those that remember the 'old tricks' are becoming fewer. Maybe we need to resurrect some of those 'tricks'.
Le Vieux
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Yeah Buster - shut down both and just loiter until daybreak!
Was out at DPOKK today for the official function to welcome the Q400. The A/C has been doing DPO for a couple of weeks but this was the glad hand job and very nicely done.
In typical fashion it was urinating down with up to 8 Octres at about 400 feet - rolling delays all day and VH-QOH (the dogs dick) came in downwind about 30 minutes over block time. Never plan a function around an aeroplane arrival. Minor downwind only - about 10 knots of Nor Easter.
God wasn't invited to one once, and makes sure WX/Sericeability/Nuclear War/Unions will intervene.
Worrals - Those days are dead - we just found a runway light and sat a pot next to it. Easy. It was a clear night - not to be considered with marginal WX.
It was also an adventure - Wilkie and I storming down the runway in the posession of the magic fire and light, a clear calm night, a trillion stars and aeroplanes in the circuit. Boys own delight.
The newbies these days just do not understand what they are missing.
I missed New Guinea by a few years on the Traffic/Res side, but I guess my generation got its "moments" as well.
Best all
EWL
Was out at DPOKK today for the official function to welcome the Q400. The A/C has been doing DPO for a couple of weeks but this was the glad hand job and very nicely done.
In typical fashion it was urinating down with up to 8 Octres at about 400 feet - rolling delays all day and VH-QOH (the dogs dick) came in downwind about 30 minutes over block time. Never plan a function around an aeroplane arrival. Minor downwind only - about 10 knots of Nor Easter.
God wasn't invited to one once, and makes sure WX/Sericeability/Nuclear War/Unions will intervene.
Worrals - Those days are dead - we just found a runway light and sat a pot next to it. Easy. It was a clear night - not to be considered with marginal WX.
It was also an adventure - Wilkie and I storming down the runway in the posession of the magic fire and light, a clear calm night, a trillion stars and aeroplanes in the circuit. Boys own delight.
The newbies these days just do not understand what they are missing.
I missed New Guinea by a few years on the Traffic/Res side, but I guess my generation got its "moments" as well.
Best all
EWL
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Apparently there was a power failure at the airport about 30min prior to last light.
Some terminal lights and power came back on, whilst others didn't.
No aerodrome lights were able to be activated by PAL. When ground crew activated the manual emergency switch the aerodrome beacon and T-Vasis illuminated, but no runway edge or end lighting.
Weather at WYY was below the alternate minima.
Some terminal lights and power came back on, whilst others didn't.
No aerodrome lights were able to be activated by PAL. When ground crew activated the manual emergency switch the aerodrome beacon and T-Vasis illuminated, but no runway edge or end lighting.
Weather at WYY was below the alternate minima.
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So EWL (and any others in the know)...
I googled 'flare pot' and didn't get a lot, and all I've really heard about them is they frequently went Bang.
How did they work? Were they kerosene?
How long did they last?
ROFLMAO. How true. There will also be something unique yet critical about that type of aircraft that nobody in PR thought of, possibly because their knowledge of aeroplanes was limited to collecting free promo model ones. 
I googled 'flare pot' and didn't get a lot, and all I've really heard about them is they frequently went Bang.
How did they work? Were they kerosene?
How long did they last?
God wasn't invited to one once, and makes sure WX/Sericeability/Nuclear War/Unions will intervene.
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Sort of like an oil can without a handle - a couple of ltres capacity.
Fibreglass wick and filled with kero. Lasted about 2 hours.
Propensity to go bang magnified by being hauled at 20-30-kph on an open barrow behing a Toyota Tug.
Best regards
EWL
Fibreglass wick and filled with kero. Lasted about 2 hours.
Propensity to go bang magnified by being hauled at 20-30-kph on an open barrow behing a Toyota Tug.
Best regards
EWL
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Not having a demonstrated and scheduled test for standby power is another hole in the Swiss cheese (stands to Reason doesn't it?).
Sooner or later the holes WILL line up and there will be all sorts of people ducking for cover.
As for the flare pots, another esteemed Pruner and I used to have a great time helping to put them out at Whyalla in the late 50's.
It took long enough with our help (about an hour and a half to deploy), let alone if the sole groundsman had to have driven the tractor and position the pots.
What I'm saying by that is that I wouldn't want to whizzing around chewing up Avgas waiting for it to happen even assuming the groundsman was immediately available.
Sooner or later the holes WILL line up and there will be all sorts of people ducking for cover.
As for the flare pots, another esteemed Pruner and I used to have a great time helping to put them out at Whyalla in the late 50's.
It took long enough with our help (about an hour and a half to deploy), let alone if the sole groundsman had to have driven the tractor and position the pots.
What I'm saying by that is that I wouldn't want to whizzing around chewing up Avgas waiting for it to happen even assuming the groundsman was immediately available.
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Two blokes and a de governed tug and you can have a strip the length of DPO laid in 20 minutes.
A tractor? Much longer I feel.
I was driving and the Wiz was doing the sprinting back and forward.
Apart from a couple of minor explosions, it was fine - and a bucketload of fun.
I guess OHS would have a lot to say about that these days. Shame that - you do not seem to be allowed to just "get out and do it" any more. The current generation cannot understand what a real operation is, or was.
Two blokes, opposing airlines just trying to save the companies some bucks. Gotta love that.
Best all
EWL
A tractor? Much longer I feel.
I was driving and the Wiz was doing the sprinting back and forward.
Apart from a couple of minor explosions, it was fine - and a bucketload of fun.
I guess OHS would have a lot to say about that these days. Shame that - you do not seem to be allowed to just "get out and do it" any more. The current generation cannot understand what a real operation is, or was.
Two blokes, opposing airlines just trying to save the companies some bucks. Gotta love that.
Best all
EWL
Last edited by Eastwest Loco; 25th Apr 2009 at 15:00.
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I can remember the days of he flare pot trailers at different places, pots had to be checked weekly if not used. Depending on the location, it was the fire service, or FSU officers, or the groundsman.
Understand now the pots have been replaced by battery operated flares. Quicker to lay, no lighting the wicks, no bangs when shaken about! Just some one has to check the batteries on a regular basis.
On one occasion at DPO, broke visual off the VAR approach at minima, turned left to line up on 06 and 300' poof - total black. Missed approach carried out, flags on the VAR, ADF's dead. Fortunately we had plenty of fuel and the FS called out the DCA electrican, who knicked the back up generator into life. The fault was initially caused by a pole going down in an accident, which took out most of Devonport and Latrobe.
The fire service at DPO were ready to lay a flare path, but being night and no aids, we were content to hold for th 30 mins it took to get the show up and running. It we had been on minimum fuel, we would have overshot to LT rather than hold.
TE3 - sometimes its not the crew, once had trouble getting the lights on, my side wouldn't trigger the PAL, co-pilot's side wouldn't do it, but the jump seat triggered with out any problem. Change of PT switches cured that problem. I also understood that the PAL system must have manual switching to cover the possibility of radio failure etc. Thats why the requirement to have some one on the ground.
VAR = Visual Aural Range
Understand now the pots have been replaced by battery operated flares. Quicker to lay, no lighting the wicks, no bangs when shaken about! Just some one has to check the batteries on a regular basis.
On one occasion at DPO, broke visual off the VAR approach at minima, turned left to line up on 06 and 300' poof - total black. Missed approach carried out, flags on the VAR, ADF's dead. Fortunately we had plenty of fuel and the FS called out the DCA electrican, who knicked the back up generator into life. The fault was initially caused by a pole going down in an accident, which took out most of Devonport and Latrobe.
The fire service at DPO were ready to lay a flare path, but being night and no aids, we were content to hold for th 30 mins it took to get the show up and running. It we had been on minimum fuel, we would have overshot to LT rather than hold.
TE3 - sometimes its not the crew, once had trouble getting the lights on, my side wouldn't trigger the PAL, co-pilot's side wouldn't do it, but the jump seat triggered with out any problem. Change of PT switches cured that problem. I also understood that the PAL system must have manual switching to cover the possibility of radio failure etc. Thats why the requirement to have some one on the ground.
VAR = Visual Aural Range