RNZAF Pilots to Fly Air NZ Maybe
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RNZAF Pilots to Fly Air NZ Maybe
Military Moves to cope with recession
Dom Post 14/03/2009
Air Force pilots are being seconded to Air New Zealand and the army is looking at using the nine-day fortnight to boost territorial numbers.
The initiatives come as the military looks at how it can maintain its reservist numbers and deal with the effects of the recession.
Twenty-seven of the 44 Defence Force personnel in the Solomon Islands are reservists, a 30-strong platoon of reserves serves in East Timor, five are in Sinai, two in Korea and three in Afghanistan.
"The territorials are fundamental to the organisational health of the army," Brigadier Dave Gawn said yesterday, on the eve of operation Boss Lift, which will see 11 civilian employers taken to the Solomon Islands to see what their staff do in the army.
The Defence Force and police are part of an Australasian operation to help restore governance and law and order to the Solomon Islands.
Brigadier Gawn conceded such an operation would be close to impossible without the territorials and more were needed, especially as it was not known what impact the recession would have. It could go either way, Brigadier Gawn said, suggesting that some employers would be reluctant, during tough times, to let staff go for the six months required for a territorial, while others would see it as a financial relief because the army would be paying their wages.
Brigadier Gawn said the army would look at how it could tap into the Government's proposed nine-day working fortnight. For example, the day off could be used to complete the minimum 20 days' training for a rookie territorial. "We haven't gone down that track yet, but it's something that is being looked at.
"Defence is seen as a potential contributor to that sort of thing [a nine-day working fortnight] and the territorial force lends itself to it, particularly as we are looking to grow our numbers."
There are about 1750 territorials but at least 2000 are needed. Retention is difficult because as part-time soldiers get older, family and employment demands intensify. Many are forced to quit their jobs when they are deployed overseas.
Although the use of part-time soldiers has long been a successful practice for the army, it is only now being adopted by the air force.
Air Commodore Gavin Howse said a deal with Air New Zealand could see pilots flying an airliner one day and putting on a flight suit the next. Newly trained pilots already are being released to Air New Zealand for a two-year secondment that sees the air force pay their wages.
Pilots who have left the air force to work for Air New Zealand will also be encouraged to come back on a part-time basis.
The scheme is likely to expand to other areas, particularly to avionic technicians of which there is a general shortage in New Zealand.
"It's more visionary that practical at the moment but we are committed to the relationship."
Http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2260...with-recession
Dom Post 14/03/2009
Air Force pilots are being seconded to Air New Zealand and the army is looking at using the nine-day fortnight to boost territorial numbers.
The initiatives come as the military looks at how it can maintain its reservist numbers and deal with the effects of the recession.
Twenty-seven of the 44 Defence Force personnel in the Solomon Islands are reservists, a 30-strong platoon of reserves serves in East Timor, five are in Sinai, two in Korea and three in Afghanistan.
"The territorials are fundamental to the organisational health of the army," Brigadier Dave Gawn said yesterday, on the eve of operation Boss Lift, which will see 11 civilian employers taken to the Solomon Islands to see what their staff do in the army.
The Defence Force and police are part of an Australasian operation to help restore governance and law and order to the Solomon Islands.
Brigadier Gawn conceded such an operation would be close to impossible without the territorials and more were needed, especially as it was not known what impact the recession would have. It could go either way, Brigadier Gawn said, suggesting that some employers would be reluctant, during tough times, to let staff go for the six months required for a territorial, while others would see it as a financial relief because the army would be paying their wages.
Brigadier Gawn said the army would look at how it could tap into the Government's proposed nine-day working fortnight. For example, the day off could be used to complete the minimum 20 days' training for a rookie territorial. "We haven't gone down that track yet, but it's something that is being looked at.
"Defence is seen as a potential contributor to that sort of thing [a nine-day working fortnight] and the territorial force lends itself to it, particularly as we are looking to grow our numbers."
There are about 1750 territorials but at least 2000 are needed. Retention is difficult because as part-time soldiers get older, family and employment demands intensify. Many are forced to quit their jobs when they are deployed overseas.
Although the use of part-time soldiers has long been a successful practice for the army, it is only now being adopted by the air force.
Air Commodore Gavin Howse said a deal with Air New Zealand could see pilots flying an airliner one day and putting on a flight suit the next. Newly trained pilots already are being released to Air New Zealand for a two-year secondment that sees the air force pay their wages.
Pilots who have left the air force to work for Air New Zealand will also be encouraged to come back on a part-time basis.
The scheme is likely to expand to other areas, particularly to avionic technicians of which there is a general shortage in New Zealand.
"It's more visionary that practical at the moment but we are committed to the relationship."
Http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2260...with-recession
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Yep two just finished ground course at Air Nelson. The tax payer is funding the whole thing from sim to paying their wages. Air Nsn get free pilots who will be easier to control than those pesky ALPA ones.
It will be interesting to see what terms and conditions they will be employed under. The rumour is that a 400hr airforce FO gets paid more than Air Nelson pays their new Captains. If this is true then it will drive a wedge further between the pilots and management.
It will be interesting to see what terms and conditions they will be employed under. The rumour is that a 400hr airforce FO gets paid more than Air Nelson pays their new Captains. If this is true then it will drive a wedge further between the pilots and management.
The initiatives come as the military looks at how it can maintain its reservist numbers and deal with the effects of the recession.
Doesn't make sense from where I sit, or perhaps there is a bigger picture.
Are Air Nelson pilots going to get the chance to have a squirt in Herc's and Orions and get paid better money while they are there?
Last edited by 27/09; 14th Mar 2009 at 19:25.
the Herc or dildo-tail what about a SIOUX?
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Well well well, seems people with low hours, AND not even in the GA scene can be admitted into Air Nelson when it suits them
Where are all you over zealous defenders of Air Nelson now?!
Where are all you over zealous defenders of Air Nelson now?!
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There are undoubtedly some fish-hooks from an industrial point of view but they can probably be overcome.
Having spoken to a few ex military pilots it is evident that most would take their own pack lunch, and crawl over a fair bit of broken glass, to do reserve flying (note to 'Tott and Gav- I could probably supply my own flight jacket, and could thus save a few bucks. I would even consider removing the A4 and 75 Sqn patches.. ..".greater love than this hath no man...").
Having spoken to a few ex military pilots it is evident that most would take their own pack lunch, and crawl over a fair bit of broken glass, to do reserve flying (note to 'Tott and Gav- I could probably supply my own flight jacket, and could thus save a few bucks. I would even consider removing the A4 and 75 Sqn patches.. ..".greater love than this hath no man...").
I'd say it's highly likely they'd have 50 hours recent NZ IF.
What it has to do with the economy is probably that an RNZAF pilot can eventually get paid more flying in civilian life. So by allowing them to work part time civilian and part time air force the RNZAF can maintain its numbers and avoid the pilots leaving the RNZAF for good. This is about protecting the RNZAF not Air NZ.
If the Air Nelson guys had the desire and the right attributes to fly for the RNZAF they'd already be doing it, so I can't see this going both ways.
And sure, this might not be a great thing for relations between the groups of pilots, just have to see how it pans out I guess.
What it has to do with the economy is probably that an RNZAF pilot can eventually get paid more flying in civilian life. So by allowing them to work part time civilian and part time air force the RNZAF can maintain its numbers and avoid the pilots leaving the RNZAF for good. This is about protecting the RNZAF not Air NZ.
If the Air Nelson guys had the desire and the right attributes to fly for the RNZAF they'd already be doing it, so I can't see this going both ways.
And sure, this might not be a great thing for relations between the groups of pilots, just have to see how it pans out I guess.
AerocatS2A
My question was to do with the recession. I don't see the reasoning here unless of course it's to help Air Nelson by giving them some cheap pilots. I also wonder that the company management might have other plans in about 3 years or so.
Yes I can see how it might help the reservist situation, however I would have thought the reservist thingy would not have been a problem especially when you read;
Tongue in cheek, one could also say this comment goes both ways. 
My question was to do with the recession. I don't see the reasoning here unless of course it's to help Air Nelson by giving them some cheap pilots. I also wonder that the company management might have other plans in about 3 years or so.
Yes I can see how it might help the reservist situation, however I would have thought the reservist thingy would not have been a problem especially when you read;
Having spoken to a few ex military pilots it is evident that most would take their own pack lunch, and crawl over a fair bit of broken glass, to do reserve flying
If the Air Nelson guys had the desire and the right attributes to fly for the RNZAF they'd already be doing it
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If the RNZAF chaps have about 400hrs they'd be only a year or more off wings course, hardly the type that would be considering or allowed a move to civil flying yet given their 10yr return of service. They'd also be only Flying Officer, or at the outside Flight Lieutenant, rank which from memory, a FGOFF would not earn more than 50K and a FLTLT would not be more than 60K unless the NZDF has substantially raised it's pay scales.
I wonder if the RNZAF has actually got more pilots than it needs and this is a way to maintain their skills rather than posting to a ground tour
I wonder if the RNZAF has actually got more pilots than it needs and this is a way to maintain their skills rather than posting to a ground tour
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I also wonder if its a case of freeing up what would appear to be an over-committed King air fleet.
With those 6 king airs having to take every pilot (those destined for fixed wing AND rotary squadrons) off the air trainer and turn them into breveted pilots. Then if they are going to 40 or 5 sqn there is significant further hour building to do. All the while trying to meet the transport and VIP commitments of an operational transport squadron.
Seems like a year or two on the dash might make bridging the gap between the B-200 and C-130 a little easier for all concerned(?)
With those 6 king airs having to take every pilot (those destined for fixed wing AND rotary squadrons) off the air trainer and turn them into breveted pilots. Then if they are going to 40 or 5 sqn there is significant further hour building to do. All the while trying to meet the transport and VIP commitments of an operational transport squadron.
Seems like a year or two on the dash might make bridging the gap between the B-200 and C-130 a little easier for all concerned(?)
Last edited by XRNZAF; 14th Mar 2009 at 23:31. Reason: typo
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Makes the extra time spent negotiating the infamous Air NZ scope clause all the more worthwhile don't it?
Believe there have been several cases of Air NZ (mainline) pilots being given LWOP to return to the RNZAF...perhaps with salary top-ups to match what they were getting at Air NZ?
Believe there have been several cases of Air NZ (mainline) pilots being given LWOP to return to the RNZAF...perhaps with salary top-ups to match what they were getting at Air NZ?
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"Air Commodore Gavin Howse said a deal with Air New Zealand could see pilots flying an airliner one day and putting on a flight suit the next. Newly trained pilots already are being released to Air New Zealand for a two-year secondment that sees the air force pay their wages."
The problem is nobody knows what contract the air force pilots will be flying under and if they will even be on the senority list. Management say that they will not be part of the establishment numbers. But if the program is a sucess what will stop every RNZAF pilot having a Dash rating?
CAA could give them a dispensation for an ATPL on reduced hours because they are, as Remoak puts it on another tread, recipients of magical RNZAF training.
Imagine complete RNZAF flt crews flying for Air Nsn. This will be a huge hurdle for the mainly unionised pilot group when it comes to contract negotiations. Strike action would be severely mitigated when you combine RNZAF, FEDs and independent pilots.
Air Nsn will not employ extra civilian pilots if they can find others to fly for them for free. So effectively GA pilots scratching for hours on minute pay packets will be taxed so it can be spent on Air Force pilots paying to fly for Air Nelson. Thus the opportunities for career progression are reduced.
The problem is nobody knows what contract the air force pilots will be flying under and if they will even be on the senority list. Management say that they will not be part of the establishment numbers. But if the program is a sucess what will stop every RNZAF pilot having a Dash rating?
CAA could give them a dispensation for an ATPL on reduced hours because they are, as Remoak puts it on another tread, recipients of magical RNZAF training.
Imagine complete RNZAF flt crews flying for Air Nsn. This will be a huge hurdle for the mainly unionised pilot group when it comes to contract negotiations. Strike action would be severely mitigated when you combine RNZAF, FEDs and independent pilots.
Air Nsn will not employ extra civilian pilots if they can find others to fly for them for free. So effectively GA pilots scratching for hours on minute pay packets will be taxed so it can be spent on Air Force pilots paying to fly for Air Nelson. Thus the opportunities for career progression are reduced.
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Just caught up with a mate of mine who's fresh off his wings course. He said he's one of two guys on his way to Nelson for ground course as part of this scheme so far, for a 1 year secondment depending on conversion courses for C-130/P-3.
Received a CPL in the post. Just had to do a civvy MEIR test and they're away...
All good news for those guys, but have to wonder about the consequences for GA.
Received a CPL in the post. Just had to do a civvy MEIR test and they're away...
All good news for those guys, but have to wonder about the consequences for GA.
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I don't see the reasoning here unless of course it's to help Air Nelson by giving them some cheap pilots.
Where are all you over zealous defenders of Air Nelson now?!
Word is some Air Nelson pilots have been invited on a live-firing exersize, but they have to bring their own bag of rocks to throw.
Last edited by ZK-NSN; 16th Mar 2009 at 10:48.
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Perhaps I should have just continued to bite my tongue, and will now undoubtably get flamed. XRNZAF is on the money, there is a lack of middle experience pilots in the RNZAF (cause they all leave) and command wants to ramp up numbers for the future (NH90/upgraded P3 & C130).
So the genuises in Wellington solve the problem by going crazy with recruiting, which only draws in lots of guys at the bottom of the sausage machine with little experience at a time when 40 & 5 SQN are running reduced conversion courses awaiting the upgrade projects on the C130/P3 to be completed.
Result... To many guys sitting around on the B200, with nowhere to go. The guys off to NSN (all two of them) will remain RNZAF employees and receive RNZAF pay (yes more than an FO, but not quite as much as a skipper), they are supposed to be extra's over and above NSN's compliment and certainly won't be accruing seniority or ever taking a command. The postings are only for a year, and are meant to gain the guys some experience. (as mentioned by some level headed posts) Don't panic, as they're still under their military 10 year bonds so won't be jumping ship at the end of the year and robbing the boys/girls at Sunair of their chance.
As for crews of RNZAF pilots taking over NSN, CAA handing out ATPL's at reduced requirements thanks to "magical training", and every military pilot getting a Dash 8 rating... lol!!!
So the genuises in Wellington solve the problem by going crazy with recruiting, which only draws in lots of guys at the bottom of the sausage machine with little experience at a time when 40 & 5 SQN are running reduced conversion courses awaiting the upgrade projects on the C130/P3 to be completed.
Result... To many guys sitting around on the B200, with nowhere to go. The guys off to NSN (all two of them) will remain RNZAF employees and receive RNZAF pay (yes more than an FO, but not quite as much as a skipper), they are supposed to be extra's over and above NSN's compliment and certainly won't be accruing seniority or ever taking a command. The postings are only for a year, and are meant to gain the guys some experience. (as mentioned by some level headed posts) Don't panic, as they're still under their military 10 year bonds so won't be jumping ship at the end of the year and robbing the boys/girls at Sunair of their chance.
As for crews of RNZAF pilots taking over NSN, CAA handing out ATPL's at reduced requirements thanks to "magical training", and every military pilot getting a Dash 8 rating... lol!!!
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