Qantas Link in Crisis again....now its for Captains!
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annaconda, thanks for the information re Cat B/C etc. difference. Interesting.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Last edited by woftam; 6th Jan 2009 at 09:37. Reason: thread drift
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Wasn't there a command experience scheme implemented by QFlink management? Seems the door was well and truely closed after the horse had bolted. If the scheme had worked then they wouldnt have this problem. Pity the bonus offered wasnt enough. Pity on Qflink management. I bet PL and MD wish they had offered more. This shortage of Captains will criple any growth the airline might have enjoyed. With so new aircraft coming I cant see how they are going to fix this mess without a massive war with the unions over seniority. Should be fun to watch.
yawn........................
Sorry..............been a bit busy today.
I'm sure you handled the differences in the 800 to 400 otherwise you'd not be here to tell me so, in such strong terms.
Yes, the 74 classic is different to the 400, I know I've flown it.
Oh and my original post was edited about 2 mins after posting last night because I re-read your post and realised I had mis read what you said about the classic 747 and the F/E's. yes I agree with you in that one.
So, settle down big fella and don't stress.
I still maintain the Dash 8 200/300 is quite a bit different to the 400 and shouldn't be the same endo. ( But I'm only going on what friends that fly them say and the fact I have jump seated on the Dash. )
Chill bro, enjoy the 800, it looks a nice machine and I hear most guys enjoy it ( apart from mastering the flare )
Sorry..............been a bit busy today.
I'm sure you handled the differences in the 800 to 400 otherwise you'd not be here to tell me so, in such strong terms.
Yes, the 74 classic is different to the 400, I know I've flown it.
Oh and my original post was edited about 2 mins after posting last night because I re-read your post and realised I had mis read what you said about the classic 747 and the F/E's. yes I agree with you in that one.
So, settle down big fella and don't stress.
I still maintain the Dash 8 200/300 is quite a bit different to the 400 and shouldn't be the same endo. ( But I'm only going on what friends that fly them say and the fact I have jump seated on the Dash. )
Chill bro, enjoy the 800, it looks a nice machine and I hear most guys enjoy it ( apart from mastering the flare )
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Bring on ccq with gusto I say. Melbourne crews will trial ccq once they're up and running on the 400. I can hardly wait for the first of potentially many screw ups which will test management arrogance.
Bets are on to see how long it takes to relinquish the concept!
Bets are on to see how long it takes to relinquish the concept!
Hopefully wotthe the opportunity for scew-ups won't eventuate 
. But as we all know, management are usually blind to the bleeding obvious when it comes to money or saving face!
As far as a war with the unions go DeafStar, I don't think it will come to that. Seniority only applies so long as there are "upgradeable" F/O's in the system. Once those people have been used up (pretty soon judging by the way things are going), then the only option left is schedule reduction or DEC's. The AFAP will not oppose DEC's under those circumstances, but there is a fundamental problem to this process under the existing T&C's!
Obviousy to attract the "right" people, things will have to change in that area. Win, win for pilots.
. But as we all know, management are usually blind to the bleeding obvious when it comes to money or saving face!As far as a war with the unions go DeafStar, I don't think it will come to that. Seniority only applies so long as there are "upgradeable" F/O's in the system. Once those people have been used up (pretty soon judging by the way things are going), then the only option left is schedule reduction or DEC's. The AFAP will not oppose DEC's under those circumstances, but there is a fundamental problem to this process under the existing T&C's!
Obviousy to attract the "right" people, things will have to change in that area. Win, win for pilots.
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Krusty - I definitely agree. The recent flood of "trainees" will create a huge chunk of the seniority list that are unable to get a command for years to come. Even this ICUS thing won't make a substantial difference as it only applies when the FO is PF, meaning you get to log 3/4 of the hours instead of 1/2 in aeronautical experince.
If the average trainee came in with say 500 TT and flew 600hrs/year it would still take 2.5 years just to get an ATPL and 4 years to meet the company requirements of 2000 aeronautical experience.
If the average trainee came in with say 500 TT and flew 600hrs/year it would still take 2.5 years just to get an ATPL and 4 years to meet the company requirements of 2000 aeronautical experience.
I guess the question is, how far are QFLink, REX, et'al prepared to go in reducing the schedule as the pool of eligible captains dry up? If they wait for the Trainees/Cadets to bear fruit in this area, it may be a significantly smaller regional airline scene to what we have today. Now that's progress!
As well as that, a bottom heavy pilot list will inevitably lead to redundancies amongst the junior pilots. That will not only delay the experience requirements for these people, but will only serve to drive more young Aussies from the profession.
You can only get screwed over for so long before reality finally sinks in!
As well as that, a bottom heavy pilot list will inevitably lead to redundancies amongst the junior pilots. That will not only delay the experience requirements for these people, but will only serve to drive more young Aussies from the profession.
You can only get screwed over for so long before reality finally sinks in!
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ATPL
So could you assume that the next group to commence a groundschool whenever that may be will already have atpl requirements or an atpl? Would these people then jump trainees/cadets/others that have higher seniority to take command spots once eligable?
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climbingflightlevels
I assume if they are eligible before you then yes. If they need captains and they have the requirements then I guess they could be at the bottom of the seniority and still get the command. However, if you are ready at the same time then it may be different?
I assume if they are eligible before you then yes. If they need captains and they have the requirements then I guess they could be at the bottom of the seniority and still get the command. However, if you are ready at the same time then it may be different?
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As we all know, unfortunately as the system of seniority is, it is attached to the circumstance of protecting those who have a less than desiable performance history but at the same time provides a safeguard to those who have the aptitude etc but may find themselves falling foul of management.
As with the few organizations I have been involved, I have witnessed the seniority system be very protecting of some that have not had a performance record reflecting a deserving upgrade, but okay an attempt is awarded.
This is the thing that is often forgotten though and needs to be remembered, as I am quite sure has been discussed on this site previously, that it should NOT be automatic and there is still a very real and required performance associated. Never overlooking the experience/qual. requirements of course.
Is there an adequate alternative or just better implimentation/management?
As the post is about the command crewing requirements of the organization, hopefully those who may be overtaken realize the reasons, if they are legitimate, and can adapt to the situation. It seems these situations do keep re-occuring though and unfortunately the only way some managers know is reactionary and with no apparent planning. Appears to be the case from reading the majority of your posts here.
As with the few organizations I have been involved, I have witnessed the seniority system be very protecting of some that have not had a performance record reflecting a deserving upgrade, but okay an attempt is awarded.
This is the thing that is often forgotten though and needs to be remembered, as I am quite sure has been discussed on this site previously, that it should NOT be automatic and there is still a very real and required performance associated. Never overlooking the experience/qual. requirements of course.
Is there an adequate alternative or just better implimentation/management?
As the post is about the command crewing requirements of the organization, hopefully those who may be overtaken realize the reasons, if they are legitimate, and can adapt to the situation. It seems these situations do keep re-occuring though and unfortunately the only way some managers know is reactionary and with no apparent planning. Appears to be the case from reading the majority of your posts here.
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Would these people then jump trainees/cadets/others that have higher seniority to take command spots once eligable?
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Likethat....
No command upgrade in Qlink is "AUTOMATIC". One day you turn up to work and presto your wearing four golden bars, I wish it was that easy unfortunately not so. All successful bids have to go through training and a check that meets certain company standards. So I'm not to sure how you've come to the conclusion that senority is just a safeguard for sub-standard pilots to sneak through the cracks to become captains. Qlink incorporates a very comprehensive cyclic program and line checks that attempt to consolidate standards and reveal any shortcomings in procedures and knowledge. The only reasons why some FOs maybe skipped for upgrades are they're "Frozen" on the 400 or don't meet the companies or CASA requirements.
Just some friendly advice I found your post totally incoherent at times and difficult to make sense. Maybe in future you should proof-read your posts before you click the submit button.
No command upgrade in Qlink is "AUTOMATIC". One day you turn up to work and presto your wearing four golden bars, I wish it was that easy unfortunately not so. All successful bids have to go through training and a check that meets certain company standards. So I'm not to sure how you've come to the conclusion that senority is just a safeguard for sub-standard pilots to sneak through the cracks to become captains. Qlink incorporates a very comprehensive cyclic program and line checks that attempt to consolidate standards and reveal any shortcomings in procedures and knowledge. The only reasons why some FOs maybe skipped for upgrades are they're "Frozen" on the 400 or don't meet the companies or CASA requirements.
Just some friendly advice I found your post totally incoherent at times and difficult to make sense. Maybe in future you should proof-read your posts before you click the submit button.
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Likethat... you sound bitter...
I have found that the seniority system works very well, if given that every pilot in the system is above or at the company standard, that is, they pass their cyclic's/checks and therefore meet the company standard, the only means for promotion is Years of Service i.e. Seniority. In saying that pilots must meet CASA and Company requirements for promotion.
Qantaslink, Sunstate and Eastern have hired pilots with minimal experience and are now paying the price for not ensuring the retention of their experienced pilots so are faced with having to bypass less experienced pilots in favour of newer employees (lower in seniority) for command upgrade. To add to this, they, Qantaslink, have two seniority lists, so a pilot who meets the company minimum requirements who is on the Sunstate seniority list is not eligible for upgrade in the Eastern pilot group. That is a problem for the relative pilot councils and the company to sort out.
I have found that the seniority system works very well, if given that every pilot in the system is above or at the company standard, that is, they pass their cyclic's/checks and therefore meet the company standard, the only means for promotion is Years of Service i.e. Seniority. In saying that pilots must meet CASA and Company requirements for promotion.
Qantaslink, Sunstate and Eastern have hired pilots with minimal experience and are now paying the price for not ensuring the retention of their experienced pilots so are faced with having to bypass less experienced pilots in favour of newer employees (lower in seniority) for command upgrade. To add to this, they, Qantaslink, have two seniority lists, so a pilot who meets the company minimum requirements who is on the Sunstate seniority list is not eligible for upgrade in the Eastern pilot group. That is a problem for the relative pilot councils and the company to sort out.
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Thank you for your replies to my post. Sorry one of you found it wasn't easily read, will try and adjust. Certainly not bitter, just observations from my experience (in some circumstances), other times couldn't be happier with seniority, and it's the system we have. Would ask you though, if you have never discussed the capacity of isolated individuals when considering upcoming commands (based on seniority) in your organization/s? Did not mean to offend with the 'automatic' comment either, again an observation of a sometimes verbalized attitude ('it's my turn', again only of individuals though).
Careful of your target (my post), I understand you may be closely involved with Sunstate, I am not, fair enough. The T&C organization and procedures you have described sound very thorough, that's excellent.
In this case was really responding I suppose to the post of the one of the previous forum contributors on dct entry cmds in the absence of suitable, for whatever reason, candidates. Sounded to me a bit as described above and was just giving my perspective.
Obviously there are management issues of crewing here.
Again thanks for your replies, you guys attack quick though (must be the anonymity), I'll ease in gently!
regards
Careful of your target (my post), I understand you may be closely involved with Sunstate, I am not, fair enough. The T&C organization and procedures you have described sound very thorough, that's excellent.
In this case was really responding I suppose to the post of the one of the previous forum contributors on dct entry cmds in the absence of suitable, for whatever reason, candidates. Sounded to me a bit as described above and was just giving my perspective.
Obviously there are management issues of crewing here.
Again thanks for your replies, you guys attack quick though (must be the anonymity), I'll ease in gently!
regards
Last edited by likethatwhenigotere; 9th Jan 2009 at 09:12.
Mate, it's as simple as this....
It is no more than the Opportunity to qualify. Simple, fair and without predudice or subjection.
You still have to pass the checks!
It is no more than the Opportunity to qualify. Simple, fair and without predudice or subjection.
You still have to pass the checks!
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as far as i know its pretty universal to be awarded upgrade only when you meet the req's....the first company i joined i was fairly low time and a lot of guys passed me on the upgrade....but when it was my turn for upgrade, you get your seniority back above they guys that passed you...
also, most companies out there are aware of the pilots that can make the cut when its their turn for upgrade....just b/c you have the hours does not mean you are QUALIFIED....far from it....i knew a handful of guys that had the time to upgrade, but they had been on the radar of the training dept and they were put through the paces pretty hard....if they got through that they were golden, but most didn't and they had to sit right seat for 6 mo. before they could try again....they got 3 attempts to pass upgrade, after that you had to look for a new job.....
i agree with most on here....link will have an eye opening moment when they realize a lot of the new guys are nowhere near ready to command....even though it says so in their log book....if you can pass all the checks and be knowledgeable in all areas of your operation, then the upgrade should be yours for the taking.....my .02....
also, most companies out there are aware of the pilots that can make the cut when its their turn for upgrade....just b/c you have the hours does not mean you are QUALIFIED....far from it....i knew a handful of guys that had the time to upgrade, but they had been on the radar of the training dept and they were put through the paces pretty hard....if they got through that they were golden, but most didn't and they had to sit right seat for 6 mo. before they could try again....they got 3 attempts to pass upgrade, after that you had to look for a new job.....
i agree with most on here....link will have an eye opening moment when they realize a lot of the new guys are nowhere near ready to command....even though it says so in their log book....if you can pass all the checks and be knowledgeable in all areas of your operation, then the upgrade should be yours for the taking.....my .02....