Qantas 747's damaged at Avalon . . .
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Sorry Hotdog, I am afraid you missed mine, re-read the news article: nothing about aborted takeoff.
This is how mountains are made of molehills!
TWT, flaps selected after pushback/engine start, hence not seen on walk around. Indicator on drive [extended] so no cockpit indication so well spotted by engineer!
What would have happened on flap retraction if not picked up?
This is how mountains are made of molehills!
TWT, flaps selected after pushback/engine start, hence not seen on walk around. Indicator on drive [extended] so no cockpit indication so well spotted by engineer!
What would have happened on flap retraction if not picked up?
The Reverend
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Seldom fixit,
MM 27-81-00:
There is only one drive per panel.
An update: The above configuration is for early model B747s like the last fleet I operated. Qantas and other B200-300 series have in fact two rotary actuators per Kreuger panel, driven by one drive unit through a drive shaft. Your theory could well be correct.
The 2 seperate tears would seem to indicate a jammed o/b drive
The flap is supported by four hinges which attach to fittings in the fixed wing leading edge. The two centre hinges are closely spaced and provide the attachment for the single flap transmission assembly which will position the flap.
An update: The above configuration is for early model B747s like the last fleet I operated. Qantas and other B200-300 series have in fact two rotary actuators per Kreuger panel, driven by one drive unit through a drive shaft. Your theory could well be correct.
Last edited by HotDog; 23rd Nov 2008 at 22:31.
Kiwi PPRuNer
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the chc qf45/46 service is normally operated by the 767, however on busier days and for operational requirements, 747's are sometimes used, back in the day it used to be a daily 744,
Nunc est bibendum
Worst suspicions confirmed. Those poor punters.
ZK, aircraft was originally scheduled at 0915 as a 767. It was re-scheduled at 1330 as a classic. I won't go into specifics as to why but the passengers had a seriously ordinary day.
ZK, aircraft was originally scheduled at 0915 as a 767. It was re-scheduled at 1330 as a classic. I won't go into specifics as to why but the passengers had a seriously ordinary day.
Kiwi PPRuNer
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what did they send over today, with yesterdays load plus todays it would have been rather full.
just noted on tonights news, that the flight today was also delayed,
not many happy faces in the arrivals hall in christchurch
just noted on tonights news, that the flight today was also delayed,
not many happy faces in the arrivals hall in christchurch
Last edited by ZK-NSJ; 23rd Nov 2008 at 08:08.
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Quantas plane taxying for take-off when damaged flap spotted
Story here:- AFP: Qantas takeoff aborted as damaged wing spotted
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Attention mods, this topic is already here inside a D & G thread.
http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-...-avalon-4.html
Oh, it's an acronym, not a word OK ,..... QANTAS = Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Service. There is no need for a U.
http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-...-avalon-4.html
Oh, it's an acronym, not a word OK ,..... QANTAS = Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Service. There is no need for a U.
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I've just seen the 6pm news about this latest problem that Qantas have had and it just seems that you can't please passengers!! I really feel for you guys that have to deal with any passengers!!
So there was some pretty severe damage to the wing, the crew decided not to fly (good decision in my mind) so the passengers decide to whinge and moan about how much longer they had to wait around.
Heaven forbid if the crew did nothing about the wing and went flying anyway. Can you imagine the possible outcome if they did? Do you think all those whinging passengers would be complaining then? NO, cause they'd probably all be dead!
You just can't please anyone these days.
So there was some pretty severe damage to the wing, the crew decided not to fly (good decision in my mind) so the passengers decide to whinge and moan about how much longer they had to wait around.
Heaven forbid if the crew did nothing about the wing and went flying anyway. Can you imagine the possible outcome if they did? Do you think all those whinging passengers would be complaining then? NO, cause they'd probably all be dead!
You just can't please anyone these days.
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The punters were whinging because the replacement aircraft was not on line at the time they were told it would be and then sat on the ground for another 2 hours before taking off. Punters naturally angry - arriving 24 hours late for a trans-tasman trip is unacceptable for the world's most experienced airline. It wasn't that the original aircraft was out of service , but the fact they were dicked around afterwards. Fair enough gripe I'd reckon.
Usual disclaimers apply!
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Any experienced 747 drivers out there know what the result is (lift/drag etc) if the Kreuger flap had have worked for T/Off but failed when next extented for ldg?
It happened to one of our early classics many moons ago. It was the type with the screwjack operating mechanism. The screwjacks failed and the kruegars on the right wing were folded UP by the airflow. Nobody noticed because it was a night flight and the flap indication worked normally as expected....Didn't 'alf look strange though!
hope no one minds me poking my nose into the D&G forum!
CW, I've never experienced a flight control problem in the air but from my experiences in the simulator, I believe that there would be a noticable tendency to roll but there would be more than enough aileron control to compensate - even with more than one panel not correctly deployed. When the flaps are extended, the outboard ailerons are active to assist the inboard ailerons with roll control (along with differential spoilers).
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As a frequent passenger, I would like to ask the following question: Given that something like this can happen, with no indication to the flight crew, would it be better to have a procedure that the aircraft is fully configured for take-off while there is still someone around on the ground to do a final visual check.
From my experience as a passenger, more often than not, the flaps/slats are set part-way through the taxi to the take-off point and this problem (or maybe a worse one) would not be detected.
From my experience as a passenger, more often than not, the flaps/slats are set part-way through the taxi to the take-off point and this problem (or maybe a worse one) would not be detected.
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NZ1009, on all Qantas Boeing aircraft the flaps are lowered to the take-off position BEFORE the engineer walks away from the aircraft and BEFORE the aircraft commences taxiing away. Can't comment on Qantas Airbus aircraft (have never flown them and procedures can vary subtly ) but I think they do it the same way.
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For those who wish to know:
The Kreuger flap group is driven by one leading edge flap drive motor that includes a mech. feedback. This feedback supplies the position signal for flap position ind. system. The motor is located in the L/E gap behind #15 Kreuger.
The flaps themselves are driven by a folding linkage system on the I/B & O/B ends of the individual flap panels. These linkages are, in turn, driven by a rotary actuator, these actuators being ganged together in a tandem fashion by torque tubes.
For this sort of damage to happen is very unusual, as the O/B actators appear not to have turned, yet the I/B set have. As the drive is transmitted through the O/B actators (2), if they jam the drive torque should not be able to be transmitted to the I/B actuators, thus preventing what you see here-a broken panel. The system should just stop. Kreuger flaps are very stiff, flat panels. They are not designed to flex like the (further O/B) Variable Camber L/E flaps.
http://img106.imagevenue.com/img.php...p_122_33lo.jpg
FYI, older -100 & SP 747's have a screwjack mechanism to drive the Kreuger's in place of the linkages.
The Kreuger flap group is driven by one leading edge flap drive motor that includes a mech. feedback. This feedback supplies the position signal for flap position ind. system. The motor is located in the L/E gap behind #15 Kreuger.
The flaps themselves are driven by a folding linkage system on the I/B & O/B ends of the individual flap panels. These linkages are, in turn, driven by a rotary actuator, these actuators being ganged together in a tandem fashion by torque tubes.
For this sort of damage to happen is very unusual, as the O/B actators appear not to have turned, yet the I/B set have. As the drive is transmitted through the O/B actators (2), if they jam the drive torque should not be able to be transmitted to the I/B actuators, thus preventing what you see here-a broken panel. The system should just stop. Kreuger flaps are very stiff, flat panels. They are not designed to flex like the (further O/B) Variable Camber L/E flaps.
http://img106.imagevenue.com/img.php...p_122_33lo.jpg
FYI, older -100 & SP 747's have a screwjack mechanism to drive the Kreuger's in place of the linkages.
Last edited by blackd; 24th Nov 2008 at 01:54. Reason: Add image link.
would it be better to have a procedure that the aircraft is fully configured for take-off while there is still someone around on the ground to do a final visual check.
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Hate the crap the media has with Qantas,
Qantas this and Qantas that, They just need to spend a day with another airline !!!
Qantas this and Qantas that, They just need to spend a day with another airline !!!
Rgds.
NSEU
Nunc est bibendum
Thats a great idea, and probably why qantas does it.