DAMPS Drug and Alcohol Management
I have been watching this on the CASA website for a while..it will have HUGE implications.
A false positive causes a crew to be a person down one hour before departure...ops now need to cover the spot at short notice.
A couple of false positives happen and bingo no one goes to work whilst taking paracetamol anymore...there will be a huge rise in sick leave taken.
After I sign off and walk through the hangar can I refuse a test? What about dead heading in uniform?
My prediction... a massive change in 12 months to make it workable.
A false positive causes a crew to be a person down one hour before departure...ops now need to cover the spot at short notice.
A couple of false positives happen and bingo no one goes to work whilst taking paracetamol anymore...there will be a huge rise in sick leave taken.
After I sign off and walk through the hangar can I refuse a test? What about dead heading in uniform?
My prediction... a massive change in 12 months to make it workable.
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It goes well beyond just pilots,engineers etc. Note the references to cargo loaders, cleaners etc. I am unaware of any CASA rules that have up to now prohibited working as a cleaner or cargo loader on prescription drugs. So under these rules we now have a de-facto prescription drug prohibition on all persons airside that are not pax. To take it further we have the same restrictions on any workshop that handles aircraft components and even on areas where cargo is being packed for aircraft transport.
Obviously whoever dreamt this up has never loaded cargo and knows nothing about back pain.
Wunwing
Obviously whoever dreamt this up has never loaded cargo and knows nothing about back pain.
Wunwing
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Just the facts
Before we carried away with the HUGE implications lets just state a little fact. Paracetamol will NOT show up on a drug test, so PanaDOL is OK
PanadEINE contains codein which will give a false positve for opiates because it is made from/derived from Opium. So lets just have a BEX and a good lie down before worrying about the sky falling down.
PanadEINE contains codein which will give a false positve for opiates because it is made from/derived from Opium. So lets just have a BEX and a good lie down before worrying about the sky falling down.
So Flying-Spike - if a doctor prescribes me Panadeine for a complaint - what should I do?
By LAW I can no longer undergo:
(a) any activity undertaken by a person, other than as a
passenger, in an aerodrome testing area; and
(b) calculation of the position of freight, baggage, passengers
and fuel on aircraft; and
(c) the manufacture or maintenance of any of the following:
(i) aircraft;
(ii) aeronautical products;
(iii) aviation radionavigation products;
(iv) aviation telecommunication products; and
(d) the certification of maintenance of a kind mentioned in
paragraph (c); and
(e) the fuelling and maintenance of vehicles that will be used
to fuel aircraft on aerodrome testing areas; and
(f) activities undertaken by an airport security guard or a
screening officer in the course of the person’s duties as a
guard or officer; and
(g) activities undertaken by a member of the crew of an
aircraft in the course of the person’s duties as a crew
member; and
(h) the loading and unloading of trolleys containing baggage
for loading onto aircraft and the driving of such trolleys;
and
(i) activities undertaken by a holder of an air traffic controller
licence in the course of the person’s duties as a controller;
and
(j) activities undertaken by the supervisor of a holder of an air
traffic controller licence in the course of the person’s
duties as such a supervisor; and
(k) providing flight information and search and rescue alert
services:
(i) to a pilot or operator of an aircraft immediately
before the flight of the aircraft; or
(ii) to a pilot or operator of an aircraft, during the flight
of the aircraft; or
(iii) as an intermediary for communications between a
pilot or operator of the aircraft, and an air traffic
controller; and
(l) providing aviation fire fighting services.
(3) This Part applies to the safety-sensitive aviation activities
specified in paragraphs (2) (b) to (l) even if those activities do
not occur in an aerodrome testing area.
And to clarify:
aerodrome testing area means:
(a) any surface in a certified aerodrome or a registered
aerodrome over which an aircraft is able to be moved
while in contact with the surface of the aerodrome,
including any parking areas; and
(b) any part of the surface of a certified aerodrome or
registered aerodrome:
(i) that is not covered by paragraph (a); and
(ii) that does not have a building on it; and
(iii) from which access to a surface mentioned in
paragraph (a) may be had; and
(c) a building located on a certified aerodrome or registered
aerodrome that is used:
(i) for maintenance of an aircraft or an aeronautical
product; or
(ii) for the manufacture of aircraft or aeronautical
products; or
(iii) by an air traffic service provider to control air
traffic; or
(iv) by the holder of an AOC for flying training; and
(d) any part of an aircraft, aerobridge or other moveable
structure in a certified aerodrome or a registered
aerodrome.
By LAW I can no longer undergo:
(a) any activity undertaken by a person, other than as a
passenger, in an aerodrome testing area; and
(b) calculation of the position of freight, baggage, passengers
and fuel on aircraft; and
(c) the manufacture or maintenance of any of the following:
(i) aircraft;
(ii) aeronautical products;
(iii) aviation radionavigation products;
(iv) aviation telecommunication products; and
(d) the certification of maintenance of a kind mentioned in
paragraph (c); and
(e) the fuelling and maintenance of vehicles that will be used
to fuel aircraft on aerodrome testing areas; and
(f) activities undertaken by an airport security guard or a
screening officer in the course of the person’s duties as a
guard or officer; and
(g) activities undertaken by a member of the crew of an
aircraft in the course of the person’s duties as a crew
member; and
(h) the loading and unloading of trolleys containing baggage
for loading onto aircraft and the driving of such trolleys;
and
(i) activities undertaken by a holder of an air traffic controller
licence in the course of the person’s duties as a controller;
and
(j) activities undertaken by the supervisor of a holder of an air
traffic controller licence in the course of the person’s
duties as such a supervisor; and
(k) providing flight information and search and rescue alert
services:
(i) to a pilot or operator of an aircraft immediately
before the flight of the aircraft; or
(ii) to a pilot or operator of an aircraft, during the flight
of the aircraft; or
(iii) as an intermediary for communications between a
pilot or operator of the aircraft, and an air traffic
controller; and
(l) providing aviation fire fighting services.
(3) This Part applies to the safety-sensitive aviation activities
specified in paragraphs (2) (b) to (l) even if those activities do
not occur in an aerodrome testing area.
And to clarify:
aerodrome testing area means:
(a) any surface in a certified aerodrome or a registered
aerodrome over which an aircraft is able to be moved
while in contact with the surface of the aerodrome,
including any parking areas; and
(b) any part of the surface of a certified aerodrome or
registered aerodrome:
(i) that is not covered by paragraph (a); and
(ii) that does not have a building on it; and
(iii) from which access to a surface mentioned in
paragraph (a) may be had; and
(c) a building located on a certified aerodrome or registered
aerodrome that is used:
(i) for maintenance of an aircraft or an aeronautical
product; or
(ii) for the manufacture of aircraft or aeronautical
products; or
(iii) by an air traffic service provider to control air
traffic; or
(iv) by the holder of an AOC for flying training; and
(d) any part of an aircraft, aerobridge or other moveable
structure in a certified aerodrome or a registered
aerodrome.
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Take a sicky and/or consult your DAME
If:
(a) the holder of a class 1 medical certificate and a licence:
(i) knows that he or she has a medically significant condition;
and
(ii) is reckless as to whether the condition has been disclosed
to CASA; and
(b) the condition continues for longer than 7 days; and
(c) the condition has the result that his or her ability to do an act
authorised by the licence is impaired;
he or she must tell CASA or a DAME about the condition as soon as
practicable after the end of the 7 days. (CASR PART 67)(a) the holder of a class 1 medical certificate and a licence:
(i) knows that he or she has a medically significant condition;
and
(ii) is reckless as to whether the condition has been disclosed
to CASA; and
(b) the condition continues for longer than 7 days; and
(c) the condition has the result that his or her ability to do an act
authorised by the licence is impaired;
he or she must tell CASA or a DAME about the condition as soon as
Understood Flying-Spike. Let's say I have done so and removed myself from flying duties for the week(s). Now what else can I do?
And what can an engineer/baggage handler etc do?
And what can an engineer/baggage handler etc do?
Compressor,
Dont forget, panadeine is over the counter. No prescription required. There are numerous over the counter medications which will set this off. We're pilots, we get exposed to more bugs than most people, we get head colds, URTI, etc, and we usually take these over the counter medications to 'soldier on'. I know if I went off sick all the time for these I would need about 30 days a year (little kids dont help either).
Dont forget, panadeine is over the counter. No prescription required. There are numerous over the counter medications which will set this off. We're pilots, we get exposed to more bugs than most people, we get head colds, URTI, etc, and we usually take these over the counter medications to 'soldier on'. I know if I went off sick all the time for these I would need about 30 days a year (little kids dont help either).
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Lunch time in the hangar
MMMMM lunch was good, that salad roll with the seeds on top was great, trouble is one of the seeds has given me a bit of a tooth ache, no worries popped a panadine tooth ache gone, now to change that tyre on the old 210.
G'day Mr CASA, sure take a swab.
What do you mean a positive test for drugs, what do you mean I have to go home and wait for weeks for a result of the second test and then have a talk to the CASA MRO to explain I only ate a few poppy seeds and had a panadine for my toothache.
That will destroy my business, default my mortgage and starve my family.
I can see innocent people being put in this position. Some people may well react in a manner likely to cause serious harm. I would love to know where the natural justice benchmark is here.
G'day Mr CASA, sure take a swab.
What do you mean a positive test for drugs, what do you mean I have to go home and wait for weeks for a result of the second test and then have a talk to the CASA MRO to explain I only ate a few poppy seeds and had a panadine for my toothache.
That will destroy my business, default my mortgage and starve my family.I can see innocent people being put in this position. Some people may well react in a manner likely to cause serious harm. I would love to know where the natural justice benchmark is here.
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flying idiot
You Sir sound precisely like the kind of idiot that works for CASA. Totally out of the loop when it comes to aviation. What happens to the foreign operator that flys into Australia. If I am doing my walk around and some idiot walks up to me and I indicate positive on a test, (because I had poppy seeds on my lunch roll), i am to be grounded. So it follows that my 150 million dollar aeroplane is also grounded??? Being a foreign operator there is no standby to take the aircraft back. I would enjoy seeing them try to prevent me from leaving!
Maybe you should take a permanent sickie on the grounds of section 8. That is your a freaking retard.
Take a sickie... my god you are a joke!
Maybe you should take a permanent sickie on the grounds of section 8. That is your a freaking retard.
Take a sickie... my god you are a joke!
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Blackbandit
You should be OK as there is no test for angry pills. I will ignore the name calling as it detracts from the debate and some people have serious concerns and they deserve rational answers.
Yes poppy seeds may give a false positive however it would be discovered on the follow up Gas Chromotography test.Granted you may have to wait a day or so to be cleared so I think I would keep clear of poppy seed buns. About the same risk control you would apply by not eating the curry on the street or not drinking tap water on the layover in Mumbai.. Best bet don't eat the bunYes you would be the hero fighting off those mean CASA people as taxi your aircraft out. A bit hard to picture you taxying out with a few hundred punters in the back while you dodge vehicles on the taxiway. But if it works in your mind that's all that counts.
Yes poppy seeds may give a false positive however it would be discovered on the follow up Gas Chromotography test.Granted you may have to wait a day or so to be cleared so I think I would keep clear of poppy seed buns. About the same risk control you would apply by not eating the curry on the street or not drinking tap water on the layover in Mumbai.. Best bet don't eat the bunYes you would be the hero fighting off those mean CASA people as taxi your aircraft out. A bit hard to picture you taxying out with a few hundred punters in the back while you dodge vehicles on the taxiway. But if it works in your mind that's all that counts.
Compressor stall/Socket: I would consult with the medico to see if can give you an alternative that won't give you a positive test. In the case of a tooth ache would you really want the that distraction while you were flying? I have experienced it ( I flew after I had a temporary filling applied and nearly keeled over when the trapped gas in the tooth expanded). If were a back ache (yeah, I know plenty of loadys that are plagued with back and knee problems ) and they use locally applied anti inflammitory gels.
The point I am trying t make is that we have to consult to get the best solution. Too many people of all walks of life take pills (sometimes given by friends or relatives) without knowing how they will effect them. From now on will all have to be more aware of what we are consuming.
The point I am trying t make is that we have to consult to get the best solution. Too many people of all walks of life take pills (sometimes given by friends or relatives) without knowing how they will effect them. From now on will all have to be more aware of what we are consuming.
It is up to each organisation to set up there damp and the procedure relating to the handling of positive tests, employee education etc.If you want to apply a bit of thought to it you can come up with a solution that suits you and your organisation and achieves the objective of preventing people working in safety critical areas working under the influence of alcohol or debilitating drugs. I have established a DAMP for an organisation it works well and it is universally accepted by the workforce.
I do know a bit about this stuff so I am willing to help if anybody wants to listen.
I do know a bit about this stuff so I am willing to help if anybody wants to listen.
And Blackbandit, I am an active pilot, I hold an ATPL and "Section 8" is outdated U.S. military jargon for a Psych discharge. I think you may be watching a little too much M*A*S*H* or Rambo or both.
Last edited by flying-spike; 26th Sep 2008 at 10:34. Reason: did a bit of research
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Flying Idiot
As I mentioned previously, what about the foreign operator who flies in with one crew. False positive test, who pays for the delay on the ground waiting for the idiots in CASA to accept that a poppy seed cake is responsible. Last time i checked poppy seeds are still legal?
And yes what about the panadine, Also legal. And no, just because you are airside, doesnt mean you can be tested.
You twit!
By the way, are you employed in the sheltered workshop.(CASA)
And yes what about the panadine, Also legal. And no, just because you are airside, doesnt mean you can be tested.
You twit!
By the way, are you employed in the sheltered workshop.(CASA)
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Flying Idiot
Oh and yes, I am sure you hold an ATPL, most of the failures in CASA do! As far as MASH goes re: section 8, I'm glad you saw the funny side of it. You must be from the sheltered workshop.
love,
xxx
love,
xxx
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Stand Bys
Etihad, Singapore, even United dont keep spare pilots on stand-by in Sydney for this eventuality.
And being a former US military aviator, I have never heard the term "section 8"??? Except on MASH, good looking woman that Clinger!! Reminiscent of the concord really.
And being a former US military aviator, I have never heard the term "section 8"??? Except on MASH, good looking woman that Clinger!! Reminiscent of the concord really.
Flying-Spike:
The CASA doctor presenting the seminar I went to stated that this process of clearing your name in an innocent positive could take up to two weeks.
I agree with the thrust of your comment that we should be careful what we ingest in the name of medicine. As flight crew this is particularly important in our operation of machinery.
I can tell my Chief Pilot/Engineer/DAMP Officer that I am on XXX medication and that I have altered my duties accordingly. That's not an issue.
The biggest problem I have is that if I voluntarily remove myself from flying duties due to medication but help out in the office I can still be randomly tested by CASA and return positive. Then it's up to two weeks being stood down.
IMHO the scope of who is able to be randomly tested by CASA's outsourced testers, and when, needs to be urgently reviewed.
Granted you may have to wait a day or so to be cleared
I agree with the thrust of your comment that we should be careful what we ingest in the name of medicine. As flight crew this is particularly important in our operation of machinery.
I can tell my Chief Pilot/Engineer/DAMP Officer that I am on XXX medication and that I have altered my duties accordingly. That's not an issue.
The biggest problem I have is that if I voluntarily remove myself from flying duties due to medication but help out in the office I can still be randomly tested by CASA and return positive. Then it's up to two weeks being stood down.
IMHO the scope of who is able to be randomly tested by CASA's outsourced testers, and when, needs to be urgently reviewed.
Checked the new regs. If this is implemented the way people fear it will be implemented, then you can stick my pilots licence up the Ministers @rse.
I spend about $15,000 a year on my flying, and plan to spend more, but I have plenty of other things I can do with it.
CASA has not addressed the question of pilots going airside for non aviation related activities, in a circumstance where alcohol or Panadiene/Sudafed has been legitimately and legally ingested. Furthermore, I never travel without sudafed and codral cold and flu tablets in my bag, since Murphy's law always sees an attack of hay fever or the apparent onset of a cold or sore throat, just after I go somewhere interstate.
To put it another way, the first test will be the last. I also feel for the poor bastards who work in manufacturing. This is the last thing that particular industry needs.
To put it simply, there are going to be a lot of "unintended consequences" of this stupidity, and I pray that the matter will end up in court or the Administrative appeals tribunal quickly.
I spend about $15,000 a year on my flying, and plan to spend more, but I have plenty of other things I can do with it.
CASA has not addressed the question of pilots going airside for non aviation related activities, in a circumstance where alcohol or Panadiene/Sudafed has been legitimately and legally ingested. Furthermore, I never travel without sudafed and codral cold and flu tablets in my bag, since Murphy's law always sees an attack of hay fever or the apparent onset of a cold or sore throat, just after I go somewhere interstate.
To put it another way, the first test will be the last. I also feel for the poor bastards who work in manufacturing. This is the last thing that particular industry needs.
To put it simply, there are going to be a lot of "unintended consequences" of this stupidity, and I pray that the matter will end up in court or the Administrative appeals tribunal quickly.
Last edited by Sunfish; 26th Sep 2008 at 16:28.
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Sunny
I am with you that work is needed on airside access "non-flying".
As an aside, I had a beer with RV7 Simon last night - he is working for Rio Tinto at Karratha. Their treatment of it makes CASA look quite gentle.
I have asked him to get me a copy of their literature if possible. My understanding is: One over 0.02 = severe warning. Two = out. Below 0.02 = work but supervisor monitors.
Perhaps the way alcohol and drugs are penetrating the community requires AOD testing - it then comes to how it is managed - I have put to CASA several of the concerns raised for consideration.
I am with you that work is needed on airside access "non-flying".
As an aside, I had a beer with RV7 Simon last night - he is working for Rio Tinto at Karratha. Their treatment of it makes CASA look quite gentle.
I have asked him to get me a copy of their literature if possible. My understanding is: One over 0.02 = severe warning. Two = out. Below 0.02 = work but supervisor monitors.
Perhaps the way alcohol and drugs are penetrating the community requires AOD testing - it then comes to how it is managed - I have put to CASA several of the concerns raised for consideration.
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Mines & Manufacturing vs CASA & Aviation
Some people seem to be saying "Just go sick until proven OK" like it's not a problem. They may be thinking of life in the mining & manufacturing world where, if found to be under the influence, the person is rostered out *on full pay* until the second test occurs (amazing the power of "everyone's in the union" workforces).
a) The worker is still able to make the mortgage payments
b) The company has a vested interest in getting the worker checked ASAP
Unfortunately for many in aviation, "sick time" often equals no pay or much reduced pay.
Perhaps if CASA had to provide "make up pay" to cover the costs while the person was down until proven innocent, they might change the wording and/or implementation?
NOTE: From experience, I can assure you that when many companies started to introduce "All workers get tested, including management" some of the white collar managers complained even more than the blue collar workers
a) The worker is still able to make the mortgage payments
b) The company has a vested interest in getting the worker checked ASAP
Unfortunately for many in aviation, "sick time" often equals no pay or much reduced pay.
Perhaps if CASA had to provide "make up pay" to cover the costs while the person was down until proven innocent, they might change the wording and/or implementation?
NOTE: From experience, I can assure you that when many companies started to introduce "All workers get tested, including management" some of the white collar managers complained even more than the blue collar workers
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No Random testing
I have just re-read the legislation and there is no requirement for random testing. If your DAMP wants to do random testing that is up to them but CASA won't (or their contractors) won't be doing it. Testing will only be conducted on suspicion of being under the influence, (CASA or your employer would want to be pretty sure of your facts to pull that one), or after an accident or incident. Once again encourage your organisation to set up a DAMP that suits your organisation and meets the requirements. IF you are a member of a professional association get them involved in the process of establishing your DAMP if you have to but be part of the process.Have a medico lined up that meets the requirement so that he can give the ok to your poppy seed roll or whatever.
Flying-Spike - may I politely suggest that you keep reading through the regs beyond the paragraphs that you have correctly paraphrased to Subpart 99C.
Subpart 99B deals with the in house testing which is exactly as you describe - it's up to the organisation how they want to do it, although it is mandatory to test new employees and those after an accident or incident.
Subpart 99C deals with CASA testing. They can request that you stop doing your (SSAA) activity and be tested. You have no right to refuse, no matter what you are doing.
Para 99.125 sets out the "Powers of the Approved Testers". There is nothing there that prevents random testing. In fact I recall from the CASA Doc at the seminar stated that they were aiming to test 5% of the SSAA workforce annually.
Subpart 99B deals with the in house testing which is exactly as you describe - it's up to the organisation how they want to do it, although it is mandatory to test new employees and those after an accident or incident.
Subpart 99C deals with CASA testing. They can request that you stop doing your (SSAA) activity and be tested. You have no right to refuse, no matter what you are doing.
Para 99.125 sets out the "Powers of the Approved Testers". There is nothing there that prevents random testing. In fact I recall from the CASA Doc at the seminar stated that they were aiming to test 5% of the SSAA workforce annually.