PM flags major naval build-up
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Wiley,
Spot on, additionally:
- Will be tinkerd with by some project office to 'Australianise' said equipment, not to worry this will only take 6-12 months of meetings / consultations and engineering approvals..
Oh, and expect another 'contractor' to bend ADF over the table and extract another few mil.
It blows ones mind to see just how contractors are sytematically ruining our aquisitions process.
Rant over... I ll shut the door on me way out
Spot on, additionally:
- Will be tinkerd with by some project office to 'Australianise' said equipment, not to worry this will only take 6-12 months of meetings / consultations and engineering approvals..
Oh, and expect another 'contractor' to bend ADF over the table and extract another few mil.
It blows ones mind to see just how contractors are sytematically ruining our aquisitions process.
Rant over... I ll shut the door on me way out
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hopefully Department of defence can replicate the C-17 acquisition process within the RAN FAA. It all happened fairly quickly with the RAAF now learning how to get the most out of these machines with the help of their USAF mates.
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Old Pinger,
I agree that it is not totally Navy's fault, but surely there is a huge portion that is .........
That pipeline probelm will not go away for a long time I would gather. MRH is just replacing SK50 and well.............what is there to replace SH2G ands S70B2.................oops thats right................nothing. Sorry I forgot about RMI
I agree that it is not totally Navy's fault, but surely there is a huge portion that is .........
That pipeline probelm will not go away for a long time I would gather. MRH is just replacing SK50 and well.............what is there to replace SH2G ands S70B2.................oops thats right................nothing. Sorry I forgot about RMI
I reckon it's great the government are putting this out. By 2050 we won't be able to count on the USA to come to our aid, let alone beat whoever threatens us. Australia will never be a superpower or be capable of defending ourselves from one alone. The best we can do is build our forces so we can give such a big sting larger countries will think twice before abandoning diplomacy.
And for all you who don't think there is a reason for invading Australia? Picture this scenario:
Big power (high pop, need for resources) seeks to obtain them from Australia, eg iron ore, uranium, you name it. Australia tries to remain neutral through the process but ends up having to pick sides. Larger power doesn't like Aus. decision so decides to invade to secure access.
Leave the major population centres alone and take an arc from Gove to TNK/Alice, down towards Kalgoolie or WA border. Cuts Aus in half and secures the majority of Aus resources. A major power would have the ability to defend a frontline that long and Aus forces may have to travel more than a 1000k's from a major centre to engage enemy forces.
Don't think it's possible? Japan in WW2 moved to secure oil and rubber sources after access was denied by the US. Also Sweden walked the fine line of neutrality in WW2 and ended up supplying iron ore to Nazi Germany.
At least having a powerful military (in the future) will give us more options.
And for all you who don't think there is a reason for invading Australia? Picture this scenario:
Big power (high pop, need for resources) seeks to obtain them from Australia, eg iron ore, uranium, you name it. Australia tries to remain neutral through the process but ends up having to pick sides. Larger power doesn't like Aus. decision so decides to invade to secure access.
Leave the major population centres alone and take an arc from Gove to TNK/Alice, down towards Kalgoolie or WA border. Cuts Aus in half and secures the majority of Aus resources. A major power would have the ability to defend a frontline that long and Aus forces may have to travel more than a 1000k's from a major centre to engage enemy forces.
Don't think it's possible? Japan in WW2 moved to secure oil and rubber sources after access was denied by the US. Also Sweden walked the fine line of neutrality in WW2 and ended up supplying iron ore to Nazi Germany.
At least having a powerful military (in the future) will give us more options.
This all sounds really good, but the biggest investment Will have to be in retaining people. Despite reported events at 2FTS, the ADF is constantly understaffed in all areas. My last unit prior to transfer to the reserves was only 55% manned and far less of those personel were deployable.
At least the sounds coming from Canberra are positive. For a maratime nation we are looking a bit weak at the moment.
At least the sounds coming from Canberra are positive. For a maratime nation we are looking a bit weak at the moment.
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Trojan, agree with your comment regards at least somethings happening.
I'm neither Left nor Right in Politics, but, the last lot made a lot of fairly good acquisitions regards hardware, some not so good. Lets not forget it takes years to purchase and introduce let alone man and deploy new kit, so the blame on Rudd & co by others is, i fell unjustified.
I'd like to give them the benefit of doubt and suggest that they are at least 'aving a go at fixing some of the issues from the last mob. Weather they get it right or not, time will tell.
Throwing more pay at serving members is not the bee all and end all, most, i feel would be happy to stay and serve for a while longer if it meant they were in a position to do what they signed up for. As a previous poster suggested, get some incentives happening, and for gods sake, get a decnet RAAF and NAVY reserve up and running.
Sadly, I feel none of the current issues will disappear unless there is significant cultural change, within the ADF,DoD and their political masters use (and expectations) of force.
Shiny new kit is one thing, having that kit maintained and manned by well trained,motivated and happy chaps is another.
I'm neither Left nor Right in Politics, but, the last lot made a lot of fairly good acquisitions regards hardware, some not so good. Lets not forget it takes years to purchase and introduce let alone man and deploy new kit, so the blame on Rudd & co by others is, i fell unjustified.
I'd like to give them the benefit of doubt and suggest that they are at least 'aving a go at fixing some of the issues from the last mob. Weather they get it right or not, time will tell.
Throwing more pay at serving members is not the bee all and end all, most, i feel would be happy to stay and serve for a while longer if it meant they were in a position to do what they signed up for. As a previous poster suggested, get some incentives happening, and for gods sake, get a decnet RAAF and NAVY reserve up and running.
Sadly, I feel none of the current issues will disappear unless there is significant cultural change, within the ADF,DoD and their political masters use (and expectations) of force.
Shiny new kit is one thing, having that kit maintained and manned by well trained,motivated and happy chaps is another.
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Probably sailing at high speed into thread drift here, but, unpopular as it might be to many, as an earlier poster has touched upon already, we (Oz) really do need to consider introducing National Service again.
It doesn't need to be military - although military national service should certainly be an option. It could involve anything from working in an old people's home, working as a teacher’s aide at a remote school, to labouring 'up norf' building roads or settlements (where such labourers might learn the rudiments of a trade).
But it's military National Service I'd like to discuss here. I know the military certainly don't want it, for it involves a huge outlay in already scarce SNCO manpower (i.e., constant basic training of ever changing recruits) and produces exactly what today's military DOESN'T need - rookie grunts or footsloggers with only the most basic military skills and none of the specialised technical and military skills the modern day soldier and sailor require - skills that take a very long time and a lot of expenditure to acquire.
However, what it would achieve is perhaps well worth whatever cost and effort it would impose on an already overstretched military. It might go some way to melding some of the young men (and women?) of the many disparate ethnic groups that make up today's Australia (just as the 1960's-70's Nashos did - ask anyone who did it). It might impose (inflict?) some discipline and skills on some of the 'yoof' of all cultural bents within Australian society.
And if the right incentives were to be offered, (see my earlier post), many might choose to accept a longer period in the Service (and an even longer period in the active reserve) if they were to be offered the chance to learn skills that could be transferred to a civilian ‘ticket’ after they left the Service OR be offered a ‘no HECS’ university education after completing ‘n’ years in the Service. (Alternatively, graduates who already have achieved their degrees would be forgiven their HECS debt if they agreed to stay on the Services for a similar period.)
Just as occurred with the Nashos of forty years ago, some would chose to stay on, a few even making a career of the military. But even those who left after serving just the minimum period would offer the country an invaluable resource – a disciplined, trained reserve, available for callout for national and natural emergencies. And perhaps just as importantly, young men and women from the ghettos that have become so entrenched in some areas of our two major cities might get to mix with (what they pejoratively call) ’Aussies’ and both sides might discover that they have more in common and are more alike than many think they have/are. And some of the barriers that some of the elders of some ethnic communities seem keen to maintain might start to crumble, even only a little bit.
End of sermon.
It doesn't need to be military - although military national service should certainly be an option. It could involve anything from working in an old people's home, working as a teacher’s aide at a remote school, to labouring 'up norf' building roads or settlements (where such labourers might learn the rudiments of a trade).
But it's military National Service I'd like to discuss here. I know the military certainly don't want it, for it involves a huge outlay in already scarce SNCO manpower (i.e., constant basic training of ever changing recruits) and produces exactly what today's military DOESN'T need - rookie grunts or footsloggers with only the most basic military skills and none of the specialised technical and military skills the modern day soldier and sailor require - skills that take a very long time and a lot of expenditure to acquire.
However, what it would achieve is perhaps well worth whatever cost and effort it would impose on an already overstretched military. It might go some way to melding some of the young men (and women?) of the many disparate ethnic groups that make up today's Australia (just as the 1960's-70's Nashos did - ask anyone who did it). It might impose (inflict?) some discipline and skills on some of the 'yoof' of all cultural bents within Australian society.
And if the right incentives were to be offered, (see my earlier post), many might choose to accept a longer period in the Service (and an even longer period in the active reserve) if they were to be offered the chance to learn skills that could be transferred to a civilian ‘ticket’ after they left the Service OR be offered a ‘no HECS’ university education after completing ‘n’ years in the Service. (Alternatively, graduates who already have achieved their degrees would be forgiven their HECS debt if they agreed to stay on the Services for a similar period.)
Just as occurred with the Nashos of forty years ago, some would chose to stay on, a few even making a career of the military. But even those who left after serving just the minimum period would offer the country an invaluable resource – a disciplined, trained reserve, available for callout for national and natural emergencies. And perhaps just as importantly, young men and women from the ghettos that have become so entrenched in some areas of our two major cities might get to mix with (what they pejoratively call) ’Aussies’ and both sides might discover that they have more in common and are more alike than many think they have/are. And some of the barriers that some of the elders of some ethnic communities seem keen to maintain might start to crumble, even only a little bit.
End of sermon.
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I spoke to a couple of mates of mine recently about the problem of retention in the ADF and they were both pussers who did 9 and 12 years respectively. They both gave the same answer, pensions. If they had the ability to get the pension they would have done the extra years. We all spent money training these blokes who were good at their jobs and committed to the navy. They are the people we need to keep.
Kev will talk the talk and like The Hollowmen shows, the public service and the costs will give us a half assed solution. Who commissioned the sea sprites? It's like a virus this strange spending.
Kev will talk the talk and like The Hollowmen shows, the public service and the costs will give us a half assed solution. Who commissioned the sea sprites? It's like a virus this strange spending.
Last edited by Whiskey Oscar Golf; 12th Sep 2008 at 00:12. Reason: spilling
and for gods sake, get a decnet RAAF and NAVY reserve up and running.
The ADF can not pay enough to retain those who are chasing higher pay and and more control of their own affairs. I believe these people would stay on however, if there was a decent, structured ADF reserve. Valuable corporate knowledge and experience would be retained.
I think this is especially relevent for the RAN.
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Too all those who cannot think of anything other than Australia is at risk of being invaded for its raw resources let me quote a very old adage that is universally recognised:
It is cheaper to trade than invade
The real risk to Australia is that its trade routes can easily be controlled by control of SE Asia. In other words, you don't need to invade Australia to dominate it, just control its external links. That is the risk Australia must address.
oldpinger
The recent 2FTS graduates are off to civvy street with their million dollar private pilots license. The Navy offered release.
It is kind of ironic that the headline news was of a Navy not being able to retain key personnel.
I am sure the ADF will eventually need these young fellows- and the Navy will have to ramp up its pilot numbers in the future.
Why is there no creative option? An exchange with the army? An exchange with an allied military where we pay for their conversion? A fast jet endorsement on Hawks from Canada so they can fly Fleet Support- whether Hawks or civilian contracts?
Evidently the RAAF has no capacity to take these fellows.
I don't know. It is just an absolute waist of money releasing them. Can't be good for morale either.
The recent 2FTS graduates are off to civvy street with their million dollar private pilots license. The Navy offered release.
It is kind of ironic that the headline news was of a Navy not being able to retain key personnel.
I am sure the ADF will eventually need these young fellows- and the Navy will have to ramp up its pilot numbers in the future.
Why is there no creative option? An exchange with the army? An exchange with an allied military where we pay for their conversion? A fast jet endorsement on Hawks from Canada so they can fly Fleet Support- whether Hawks or civilian contracts?
Evidently the RAAF has no capacity to take these fellows.
I don't know. It is just an absolute waist of money releasing them. Can't be good for morale either.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 13th Sep 2008 at 10:43.
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Perhaps the ADF should "lend" the surplus pilots to one of our regional carriers who is having difficulty retaining pilots. At least this would maintain the skills already developed, and keep regional services flying.
On another front, while the C17 acquisition process was done in the blink of an eye. Perhaps you should investigate what level of support is carried out in Australia, by Australians... The answer, well we wash the windows, and sometimes fill 'er up. The rest goes back to the good old US of A!
Any acquisition needs to look at through life support, local industry involvement, and end of life disposal.
It's just a pity that sometimes the people working on these projects are only planning their next promotion, posting or career after next.
Spanner
On another front, while the C17 acquisition process was done in the blink of an eye. Perhaps you should investigate what level of support is carried out in Australia, by Australians... The answer, well we wash the windows, and sometimes fill 'er up. The rest goes back to the good old US of A!
Any acquisition needs to look at through life support, local industry involvement, and end of life disposal.
It's just a pity that sometimes the people working on these projects are only planning their next promotion, posting or career after next.
Spanner
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Lend the surplus pilots to regional airlines? Let's not forget that these young individuals were motivated to train to become naval aviators. If they had wanted to fly for Rex or whoever, they could have and would have. Their interests are what is important here since the Navy has completely dudded them and not fulfilled their side of the bargain. They should be entitled to leave and do what they want now. Yes, in a couple of years time the Navy will be screaming for pilots as the inevitable cycle goes full circle. Right now though they have nothing to go to in the RAN or the RAAF (The RAAF has just cranked up IFS again so most graduates are looking down the barrel of a 6 months holding pattern before an operational conversion.) I understand the Navy graduates were offered Army positions but told they had to go green and not stay in a white uniform. I don't blame them for turning that down either. Unfortunately, with the limited hours that they have at the moment they don't have too many well paying options despite their excellent training that they have received.
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Wiley, just a gentle reminder that the rookie grunts and foot sloggers, were the very blokes who fought like demons on the Kokoda Track. Your idea is great, but where are you going to get the Warrant Officers to deal with the rabble you are going to get? Some of them already with half cooked brains from drug taking, no discipline in their lives (probably never has been) no respect for anyone or anything (if you think im overeacting come up and have a look at schoolies week on the Gold Coast) and these kids have at least a education, but not much else, obviously not all kids are like this, but it is fair to say that with the lack of parenting, the failing legal system, a underpowered police force in all states (gone are the days when the local sargent kicked you up the ar#e for breaking windows) (and with your parents grateful knowledge) believe me I know, (I still haven't forgotten the kick I got from the police in NTL after being caught firing lemons thru windows with my trusted catapult, in the 50s,) now the coppers would have been dragged thru the court by my indignant parents for "ruining" my life and health, but a amount of compo might make them get over it!! And you expect the services to take over where the parents and the do gooders have failed, and turn these feral kids into service personnel is a huge ask, just policing the drugs going thru the barracks would be difficult, a sad reflection on society as it is now I know, and we want to hope this country does not need defending, because the youth of today are very different from the two previous wars, they are soft and always aware of their "rights" taught to them by a left wing socialist teachers union, who have now had it turned on themselves by some schools having to hire security guards to protect these very same teachers. But they still don't get it. And now the parents and education system has failed, now hand the whole horrible social mess over to some poor hapless WO, to try and turn these kids into productive adults is a huge ask. My rant over.
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I can't find fault in your analysis, teresa, except to say that (I think it was Aristotle or one of 'them Gricks' way back then) wrote that the modern generation in his time were a bunch of hopeless wastrels who couldn't/wouldn't get orf their collective fat arses to save themselves etc. (And I certainly recall our parents' generation saying the same thing about us, the Boomers.)
I agree the Army doesn't have the manpower, especially in the vital SNCO area, to handle even a relatively small selective service system (as was foisted upon our 'hopeless' generation back in the 60s-early 70s). And look how they turned out? Long Tan and Firebase Coral/Balmoral spring immediately to mind.
If a new Nashos system was to be brought in, it would end up as a selective service system by default, as a huge percentage wouldn't pass the most basic physical testing, while another relatively large percentage would find pressing reasons why they had to return to Lebanon and elsewhere (but with their Oz passports safely stored away so they could demand free repatriation should things get a little sticky 'back home' again).
If we reward people who complete this national service, and reward them generously, with perks like the ones I've already suggested above, it could become something clever young men and women would seek.
I agree the Army doesn't have the manpower, especially in the vital SNCO area, to handle even a relatively small selective service system (as was foisted upon our 'hopeless' generation back in the 60s-early 70s). And look how they turned out? Long Tan and Firebase Coral/Balmoral spring immediately to mind.
If a new Nashos system was to be brought in, it would end up as a selective service system by default, as a huge percentage wouldn't pass the most basic physical testing, while another relatively large percentage would find pressing reasons why they had to return to Lebanon and elsewhere (but with their Oz passports safely stored away so they could demand free repatriation should things get a little sticky 'back home' again).
If we reward people who complete this national service, and reward them generously, with perks like the ones I've already suggested above, it could become something clever young men and women would seek.
Actually, Teresa Green, your analysis describes a lot of people I met while in the Army
.
Drug taking, drunken violence, deliberate destruction of property, assaults (GBH even), drink driving and the odd over-dose. I even knew one bloke who decided to shoot at passing cars at RAAF Richmond with his paintball gun until he was inevitably arrested!
.Drug taking, drunken violence, deliberate destruction of property, assaults (GBH even), drink driving and the odd over-dose. I even knew one bloke who decided to shoot at passing cars at RAAF Richmond with his paintball gun until he was inevitably arrested!
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code3/oldpinger,
The Navy fella's won't get a great deal of flying in the green, dare I say it most of us junior guys are 'current' but not 'proficient'. Barely enough ROE to share the love as it is.
Less than 200hrs per year... yeah I am ready to deploy..
nuff said, I ll get me hat....
The Navy fella's won't get a great deal of flying in the green, dare I say it most of us junior guys are 'current' but not 'proficient'. Barely enough ROE to share the love as it is.
Less than 200hrs per year... yeah I am ready to deploy..
nuff said, I ll get me hat....