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Old 4th Aug 2014, 12:45
  #1521 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sand and dust, I hate the dust and I hate the sand
Posts: 113

I do agree that this entire mess should have been dealt with in-house.

Now that the smoke has turned to fire and progressed to a dismissal, I agree with previous posters comments who think it wise that 'the gent' walk away and not incur the past being dredged and the future destroyed.

Unless he can say with an honest hand on heart that there is no smoke and no fire?

Fiji is lovely this time of year and 'the gent' apparently has a good mate over there to help him out, as he has done in the past.

Probably just coincidental... some interesting faces swanning around the JQ office chasing MRs recently vacated job...

All the best.
MASTEMA is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2014, 21:31
  #1522 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,458
Anyone know which CAsA region handles Tiger?
This whole process has a Wodger Wabbit smell to it.
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 21:52
  #1523 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1
Apologies for the thread drift, but where has MR gone and when did he leave?
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 02:19
  #1524 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Harbour Master Place
Posts: 661
Originally Posted by 004wercras
Welcome to the great western fallacy called 'democracy'
Bingo, been waiting for that shoe to drop. Its right up there with the fallacy of the 'rule of law' as eloquently argued by John Hasnas in The Myth Of the Rule of Law.

Anyone wishing to undertake an action against a governemnet department or large politically well connected business & expecting to have any expectation of justice from the courts should read that document very carefully. Welcome to the modern reincarnation of facism.
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 04:40
  #1525 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,458
As my old grandpappy used to say

"The law is for everyone...Justice is for them that can afford it"
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 06:14
  #1526 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 639
MR is stepping down and flying the 787. Whether pushed or jumped is the mystery.
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 06:39
  #1527 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1
Thanks lookleft
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 09:23
  #1528 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a box
Posts: 289
CurtainTwitcher, a very interesting read. Thank you for the link. Cheers
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 12:42
  #1529 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,188
MR is stepping down and flying the 787. Whether pushed or jumped is the mystery.
I didn't think MR held a seniority number.

Are JQ allowing direct entries onto the 787?

The folk at QF getting bumped to the RH seat will be pleased.

Mstr Caution is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 18:16
  #1530 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
anyone started a fighting fund like jq pilots did for j eakins?
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 20:35
  #1531 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Things that make you go Hmmmm.

OEM "(18 a) Unfortunately for Tiger and Virgin he has the means to fight it all the way to the High Court in Canberra and that is exactly what he has advised he will do."
Consider: with respect - he has advised himself very badly. There are many reasons not to pursue this to the 'ultimate' level; mostly because the total cost is indefinable. The real costs are not financial but paid for from his own well being, happiness and ultimately the family. From experience I can assure you that once the 'obsession' takes hold, much time will be spent identifying tenets, writing copious briefings for counsel and conversational gambits are limited to 'my case' and the intricate details thereof. I have a dear friend who began a legal battle some 20 years ago now; I'll own it's an extreme case, but weekends and evenings spent pouring through case files, legal tomes and precedent have become a way of life, which is not a life. The best results I have seen come from taking 'sound' advice from trusted, competent counsel who will identify 'what' it is you are fighting rather than what you see as the 'fight'. Good counsel likes to win and will take you to a position from where the fight you choose may (with a push) be won.

Does our man want to be reinstated, with an apology? or is he determined, at his own expense to pave the way for the next poor bugger; note, that's the next; not the first and most certainly, not the last. The unions used to be very good at sorting out these sorts of troubles; mostly quietly through negotiation rather than court room brawls; not sure how (or even if) that works anymore. But pick your fight and pick the ground carefully; win one round comprehensively, the rest will flow on. The risk, if you loose is that the other wins and this type of 'entertainment' becomes an accepted practice, supported by a precedent.

If it were me; (IMVH non qualified O) I think I'd tackle the CASA denial of the FOI request first, seems to be the weakest point, particularly if there is any 'hangover' from the subsequent testing proving – no bad habits. Once identified, the miserable piece of dung who kicked this off can personally be stripped of his house; his dog and his Missus may be kicked and used as best pleases. Unfair dismissal rules tend to lean toward those who prove they were, in fact, treated 'unfairly'; this avenue should be approached with caution. The target outcome – financial; as that hurts those who sought to hurt you; and, personal – it will really upset those who perpetrated this offence when you taxi out past the office and flip 'em the two finger salute through the DV window. That's where real satisfaction lives.

As stated, I've seen many 'battles' and nursed a few of the wounded back to sanity. Advice I can stand behind (IMO) is to develop the patience of a rabbit trap; hoard evidence like a miser; get advice on 'who' is the best brief for task then research, very carefully, before you finally chose counsel; stay close to your friends and closer to your family, stay out of the pub, eat your veggies and do not make 'your matter' the sole topic of conversation. Stay detached when you write stuff; pretend it's someone else, "Bloggs" is an old, trusted companion.

I know; all easily said; bloody hard to do. Just the thoughts of a glorified bus driver (magna cum lumpy), offered for what they are worth, in honest support.

This has been a reverse charge call to the school of hard knocks.
Kharon is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2014, 23:29
  #1532 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 997
Kharon, I really enjoy every one of your posts. You and me, we speaka da same lingo.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 02:03
  #1533 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: asia
Posts: 191

Not that I have any feelings towards Tiger and I don't have any first hand knowledge about their standards but,
I get the impression that it is something other than a top flight operation.

Perhaps they are looking for a "Standards" Manager for a reason.

On the point of HH's CRM skills.
I recall that he was an FO at said 'Asian Airline' and also being told that he just re-hashed 20 year old scenarios collected from his old airline to people who couldn't understand what he was talking about , didn't care what he was saying and kept right on doing what they had been doing before he started giving classes ( sans CRM).
I have also heard that his people management skills don't particularly fit in with CRM best practices either.

By the way:
He wouldn't be the only FO from an Asian airline who has re-invented himself into a high flying position at a local airline ( via the CRM banner that HR Depts love so much and/or perhaps in some cases by judicious use of English or editing of facts).

I believe that your points about the fuel planning method used by the crew are flawed.
The company Fuel Policy is part of the Ops Manual and over rides the Manufacturer's Manual unless the process that you described is stated in the Ops Manual as an approved method. Sunk then and there.

The fuel planning method that you suggest works providing you input the correct data but, I think that it is not approved.

The crew should have firstly, questioned why they were flying to Perth without passengers and asked questions . You are an airline after all.
The fact that the ZFW was at or near the Basic Weight would be a big hint, if you know your "Aircraft Limitations Chapter" .

The correct action would have been to contact a "duty pilot Manager" ( wouldn't be surprised if Tiger don't have them) and seek advice.

After contacting a manager, used the MCDU it to get a fuel burn and reserves but, using information gained from their enquiries to get a realistic ZFW.

Use less advantageous winds if they were without correct wind data .

I think that the sight of passengers walking to the aircraft would have caused most competent PICs to think about putting on more fuel at that point and if you miss Cufew, tough. Safety first.

I also think that the Captain should, in any case, have used the PIC discretion for safety to uplift more fuel due to the fact that they was no accurate Flight Plan , probably no accurate load or wind data available to them , until he felt happy that the Fuel Policy had been complied with and all eventualities had been covered.

The moment he became aware ( if he did) that things weren't right, he should have stopped, taken a step back and consulted with his F/O as to whether what they were doing was safe. CRM, I did learn something.

If he missed the Curfew, again, tough.

In the old days, the smart people used "top up" to go to Perth in good weather with Burn + 4,000 min and fuel to get to Learmonth ,if there was the chance of fog.

In other words, get it all your way as much as possible.

The curfew pressure is and old trap for new players.

Get pressured to make a decision........ bring more gas or just say no.

Again, it appears to be a case of two supposedly competent pilots missing something obvious and it appears that this is happening with all of these low costs.

People are being employed at the bottom with insufficient experience and then promoted too quickly. It is only later that holes in their abilities/experience and/ or training are exposed.
Once these people get into training, standards and management, the whole system is corrupted.

I hear that there is a self proclaimed 'high flyer' at Tiger who had trouble passing his all checks at all his past airlines and would break into tears because he couldn't handle the pressure. Does he hold a Command,Train or check at Tiger?

On the point of the drug testing:

Strange how the pilot had had what 5 drug tests in how many months?

Personally, I have never been drug tested but then, I wouldn't know what a drug was if I fell over a case of them.

You also pointed out that this pilot doesn't even drink ,is the father of a young family and that he is active in his community but, you did not
say that he does not take drugs nor does he have a history of drug taking.

Acting a little bit like a Barrister, I think.

Did this pilot have a history of drug taking or were the multiple tests just a case of victimization with no basis in fact?

Either way, I wouldn't go throwing much money towards legal action .

It is obvious that he is not wanted and he should just go and look for greener pastures.

From what I hear, departing Tiger for greener pastures isn't too difficult but, you would not want a bad reputation following you.

Best of luck to the individual involved.
International Trader is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 04:40
  #1534 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Downunda
Posts: 559
Is Tiger being allowed by CAsA to breach the regulations??

If everything that has been reported in this thread is in fact true, then apart from the obvious breaches of the Fair Work Act etc, Tiger haven't complied with;

- Their Safety Management System (SMS)
- Their Human Factors training/syllabi
- Their Just Culture policy
- Elements of their CRM

Aren't all the above items part of regulatory requirement? If the answer to any or all of the above is 'yes', then Tiger have acted non-compliantly with the regs and their own manuals. So why aren't CAsA doing something about that?
Now of course we all know that CAsA don't comply with much themselves, they love to 'act how they want when they want' and certainly don't expect the same levels of compliance for themselves as they do for operators, but if CAsA refuse to take action they are then condoning Tigers non-compliance with regulations. And if CAsA are willing to turn a blind eye or be complicit in this matter, then what else are they turning a blind eye to? Tiger staff have already admitted to minimal to nil flight planning training with regards to this matter, and that's just one red flag here. Are we scratching the surface? Does all this give me any assurance in Tiger or CAsA? Hardly.

I can only wish the very best for the Captain if he is indeed a pilot with a clean sheet and stellar reputation for compliance and excellence.

Tick Tock
004wercras is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 08:38
  #1535 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, N.S.W. Australia
Posts: 148
If only said Captain had a relative who could represent him, free of charge, all the way to the High Court......
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 08:51
  #1536 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2014
Location: South Island
Age: 65
Posts: 6
This guy is affordable and accessible
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 10:24
  #1537 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 65
Posts: 688
Red face


May I suggest you write a letter to "Skull" and ask the pertinent questions.

While he was a Star Chamber man at CX, I believe him to be an man of character (ie, he has served in the RAAF).

This case is particularly disturbing and follows a similar story going on in CX where an ISM accused a CN of smelling of alcohol at ICN recently. All proven to be false.

How many probes do we have to have inserted into our private parts before we all say enough is enough and you can all f....g walk to wherever you want to go on your $50 tickets?
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 11:56
  #1538 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Downunda
Posts: 559
May I suggest you write a letter to "Skull" and ask the pertinent questions.
"Sorry, the Fuehrer is too busy to take calls or answer letters right now, if you leave a name, number and contact details he will get back to you as soon as possible. Kind regards....." in the meantime Chairman Hawke or Flyingfiend shall write you a shit-o-gram advising you to leave Mr Angry alone.

While he was a Star Chamber man at CX, I believe him to be an man of character (ie, he has served in the RAAF).
Naughty naughty boy. Either you are taking the piss or you are Tony Tyler or Nick Rhodes?

A sad reality is that good guys, which translates to good pilots, have been getting royally pineappled for decades around the world, but it is getting worse. And on many occasions the root cause is a CP with a large ego, small winky, or minimal testicular fortitude when it comes to protecting his troops from pathological CEO's who have the mentality and skill of a steaming Donkey stool.
004wercras is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2014, 20:52
  #1539 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Downunda
Posts: 559
This thread is getting interesting. What else have you got for us in your bag of goodies OEB?
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 20:55
  #1540 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Thinking out aloud. (Allowed?).

Once again I must ask forbearance; in my own small way I've been trying to get to the radical (root) cause of the Tiger scuffle, not the detritus floating on the surface, which you must, for a moment set aside; but the 'causal' elements.

I helped a bunch of 'clever lads' with a submission to the Truss WLR, (heavy lifting only) part of that involved looking at how various regulatory 'enforcement' practices impacted on safety outcomes. There is a shed load of argument to plough through and the majority of that combined wisdom differed, in varying degrees with our Australian methodology. ICAO, FAA and EASA have published 'advice' which; in short, says that enforcing absolute compliance with minimum standards is actually detrimental, in that so much effort goes into 'pedantic' interpretation and micro management that development of (for want of better) 'innovative' advanced safety thinking is stifled in some cases, actively discouraged in others.

Enforcing the regulatory 'minimum' standards through micro management attracts a certain type of mind, which is not necessarily helpfully 'creative'. The argument goes that if the 'regulator' prefers this type of mindset, the regulator will 'encourage' those who fit their cardboard cut-out (protected species) and discourage those who don't (moving targets).

Only a personal observation; but 'we' seem to have a growing population of this 'type' of mindset, which in it's desperate need for the power to enforce the minutiae of a 'regulation' will go to extreme lengths to curry favour and perpetuate, through any means possible the legend that they, and only they can keep the operation compliant, viable and properly operational. To ensure this, skill in plagiarism, smoke generation, mirror polishing and management backside cuddling are required. Once the 'power' is gained, the ego beast demands constant feeding. The ego beast prefers to eat anything that may be seen as competition or remotely combative. With the power to satisfy the increasing demand of the addiction, the need for fresh meat increases in proportion; this in combination with unlimited power creates an atmosphere fear, but also promotes rebellion. Rebellion usually begins 'underground' and initially starts with small acts of subversion. When these minor transgressions are ruthlessly stamped out, the seeds for real trouble are sown. This self perpetuating game amplifies, more subversive action, more ruthless action taken against.

The surface reasons for the crew in question taking 'independent' action are clear enough and the conscious reasons for them doing so are also clear; but I wonder. What subconscious reasons prompted a sane, competent crew to an overt breach of SOP. I also wonder how much animosity was involved in a ruthless determination to eradicate, so completely the PIC. A bonus is the sending of a clear message to those who dare look askance at some of 'management' edicts. Not healthy, not at all.

Being mauled by McComic did Tiger no favours, it could arguably be seen as detrimental to the safety culture. Management made paranoid, determined to maintain the AOC at any cost; management pilots using that fear to elicit power and the crews all having kittens, because the post flight paper-work was not quite correct.

There are grounds for a reasonable man to believe something is fundamentally very wrong within the Tiger operation. If that element can be identified, isolated and removed, the lid may just go back onto the box which contains all the usual crew grumbling and the operation returned to an open, comfortable place to work. Happy people make for great airlines; frightened unhappy people will either leave or stay on, nursing a festering anger. Not healthy, not all.

Anyway – only my thoughts, we can always go back to pretending this is all about a SOP being busted by a drug fiend and once he is dismissed all things in the garden will return to a state of rosy, black letter compliance.

I know, I know: shut up and back to my knitting, right.

Last edited by Kharon; 7th Aug 2014 at 05:52.
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