Airservices Australia ADS-B program - another Seasprite Fiasco?
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Mr Creampuff
This I know not. I await the release in the third quartile at which we arrive tomorrow.
But I wait with interest as such data will enable better assessment of subsidy quotes in JCP.
It is in my mind that Airservices needs take say 10 volunteer aircraft of different style and have fitment when material available, and report on result. Buyer confidence would rise.
This I know not. I await the release in the third quartile at which we arrive tomorrow.
But I wait with interest as such data will enable better assessment of subsidy quotes in JCP.
It is in my mind that Airservices needs take say 10 volunteer aircraft of different style and have fitment when material available, and report on result. Buyer confidence would rise.
Hmmm... all and good until the terrorists cause GPS to be turned off - as it seems nobody really wants to address that issue 
....onto the...
...Next question - If we get all-in ADS-B, how much will Oz aircraft owners be asked to pay to use the GPS system ???
(please note I wrote GPS not ADS-B)
....onto the......Next question - If we get all-in ADS-B, how much will Oz aircraft owners be asked to pay to use the GPS system ???
(please note I wrote GPS not ADS-B)
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PNT Polciy
FB,
See here for the US Governement Position Navigation and Timing (PNT) policy.
There are several interesting quotes for you from it.
My bolding.
Also,
Don't think the US Government are not aware of the threat you describe. After reading this policy my guess is that they would be very reluctant to "switch off" the GPS signal because the mayhem that would cause might be worse than anything terrorists could pull off.
Methinks that you might be just a tad paranoid about this.
See here for the US Governement Position Navigation and Timing (PNT) policy.
There are several interesting quotes for you from it.
the United States Government shall:
......
Provide on a continuous, worldwide basis civil space-based, positioning, navigation, and timing services free of direct user fees for civil, commercial, and scientific uses, and for homeland security through the Global Positioning System and its augmentations, and provide open, free access to information necessary to develop and build equipment to use these services;
......
Provide on a continuous, worldwide basis civil space-based, positioning, navigation, and timing services free of direct user fees for civil, commercial, and scientific uses, and for homeland security through the Global Positioning System and its augmentations, and provide open, free access to information necessary to develop and build equipment to use these services;
Also,
In addition, whether designed for military capabilities or not, all positioning, navigation, and timing signals from space and their augmentations provide inherent capabilities that can be used by adversaries, including enemy military forces and terrorist groups.
Methinks that you might be just a tad paranoid about this.
US Governement Position Navigation and Timing (PNT) policy.
Government 'Policy' ?
............................................................ ...................Hmmm............................................. ......think, think, think....
............................... Thats where it is government policy to invade Iraq.. BUT, after the next election it is Government policy NOT to invade Iraq - i.e. get the hell out of the place
After reading this policy my guess is...
Unforetunatly GaryGnu, I place no reliability on 'Government policy' Personally I would want a legaly binding document that states civy GPS will be available, and FREE, come hell or high water - i.e. I can sue them if they fail to provide said service. Do Airservices have such a document ???
Thread Starter
JM, following the question from Creampuff and I, have you found out how much it costs to buy and install a Garmin ADS-B ‘out’ system that is certified? Surely you have made a phone call. What was the answer? I have a feeling no price can be quoted because no system is available.
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Mr Dick Smith
I have stated as I found. Details July - Sept was advised. Today is 1 July, first day of 92 and only at 10:00 - certainly no system is available.
Do we wait in life for box to arrive before plan and move? If I use logic you give me then no-one builds house because nothing is there to begin with, no evidence of expense to trust at plan stage. Billions spent on JSF without certify or fly.
I have stated as I found. Details July - Sept was advised. Today is 1 July, first day of 92 and only at 10:00 - certainly no system is available.
Do we wait in life for box to arrive before plan and move? If I use logic you give me then no-one builds house because nothing is there to begin with, no evidence of expense to trust at plan stage. Billions spent on JSF without certify or fly.
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FB,
If you choose not to believe stated US Government policy there is not much I can do to change your mind.
However, if the GNSS (not just GPS) signal is completely lost, for whatever reason, aircraft will not fall out of the sky. The laws of physics will still apply to keep them airborne, there will be a back up network of radio navaids by which to navigate and although there may be no surveillance in some ADS-B only areas procedural separation standards will still apply. At worst there will be some delays outside of the remaining SSR/PSR network.
I think you are overstating the risk here. Remember Risk=Probability x Consequence. The probability is low and there are measures in place to mitigate the consequence.
If you choose not to believe stated US Government policy there is not much I can do to change your mind.
However, if the GNSS (not just GPS) signal is completely lost, for whatever reason, aircraft will not fall out of the sky. The laws of physics will still apply to keep them airborne, there will be a back up network of radio navaids by which to navigate and although there may be no surveillance in some ADS-B only areas procedural separation standards will still apply. At worst there will be some delays outside of the remaining SSR/PSR network.
I think you are overstating the risk here. Remember Risk=Probability x Consequence. The probability is low and there are measures in place to mitigate the consequence.
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Dick,
It is a very legitimate question on the price of the avionics. I also cannot provide the answers. However, if price is your concern just say so. Don't try and shroud it in unfounded tehcnical or regulatory concerns.
The JCP has attempted to address the cost issue by identifying savings from retiring the En-route SSR network and funding a subsidy, hence the "hurry".
It is a very legitimate question on the price of the avionics. I also cannot provide the answers. However, if price is your concern just say so. Don't try and shroud it in unfounded tehcnical or regulatory concerns.
The JCP has attempted to address the cost issue by identifying savings from retiring the En-route SSR network and funding a subsidy, hence the "hurry".
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Mr Creampuff
Sir, I am not mocking of you and your comment is unkind.
In front of me I have following from Garmin:
• Compatible with GNS 400/500 and 48
Is from Garmin, with Garmin authority. Has TSO.
Who do I believe in this debate - Mr Garmin in writing, or Mr Dick Smith hypothesis, or you making insult?
Unit NOT available, but like house or JSF position of trust exists and I take Garmin as personal authority.
Sir, I am not mocking of you and your comment is unkind.
In front of me I have following from Garmin:
GTX 330 ES Mode S Panel Mount – Available Q3 2008
•
Solid state design, digital display
•
Voltage 11 - 33VDC
•
Transmit power 250 watts
•
OAT display, pressure altitude, density altitude, altitude monitor
•
Dimensions: 6.25”W x 1.65”H x 11.25D, weight 4.2 lbs
•
TSO C166a
•
GTX 330 ES, prelim price $5,995 $US
•
GTX 330 D (diversity) with ES, prelim price $10,995 $US
•
Upgrade price for non ES models to ES is $1,200 $US
• Compatible with GNS 400/500 and 48
Is from Garmin, with Garmin authority. Has TSO.
Who do I believe in this debate - Mr Garmin in writing, or Mr Dick Smith hypothesis, or you making insult?
Unit NOT available, but like house or JSF position of trust exists and I take Garmin as personal authority.
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Mr Creampuff
I enjoy reading you and Clapton; much information.
In regards Garmin I soon twiddle with GTX 330ES, while you twaddle twice. Perhaps better you tell Garmin their error direct?
Words of Sun Tzu - You cannot stop innovation
ADS-B coming - just when and how.
I enjoy reading you and Clapton; much information.
In regards Garmin I soon twiddle with GTX 330ES, while you twaddle twice. Perhaps better you tell Garmin their error direct?
Words of Sun Tzu - You cannot stop innovation
ADS-B coming - just when and how.
JM: your pretend syntax mean you confuse info on Garmin website for justify this unadulterated twaddle:
If we decide going to pay someone to build house, there no 'trust' involved. If clever, we enter contract, at specified price, with builder with substantial assets, and we relieve builder of those assets if builder breaches contract. We know we going walk away with house at contracted price, or a bucket of money in damages - we not fussed either way.
JSF not good example - might end up precisely where Seasprite did.
That Dick's point.
Get it, Confucious?
Do we wait in life for box to arrive before plan and move? If I use logic you give me then no-one builds house because nothing is there to begin with, no evidence of expense to trust at plan stage. Billions spent on JSF without certify or fly.
JSF not good example - might end up precisely where Seasprite did.
That Dick's point.
Get it, Confucious?
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Mr Creampuff
You post like lawyer and we know who win money when lawyers arrive. Many people lose money to fraud through builders without laywer success.
Fact - ADS-B already exist, technology exist, aircraft flying through Australian FIR appear on ATC screens.
Move to ADS-B at GA level is simple technology shift if market driven.
Further information is here from informant - I have spoken at length to Microair Avionics about concerns raised. He advised me that the subsidies $10,000.00 for VFR and $15,000.00, were not plucked out of the air, but resulted from Airservices consultation with Avionics suppliers and installers including Hawker Pacific and Microair. He said this will more than cover acquisition and install costs for ADS-B out, however Microair are building in a 1090 Squitter receiver into their units for VFR and IFR giving In capability, a glass display in the cockpit is not included, but this can be displayed on later Garmin units, various MFD's or even on a PDA, their VFR unit will be under $10,000.00. They are building one box for VFR, two for IFR, these will be remote mount units and will not disturb any existing panel installations, or require any panel space.
Racial humour remain your twaddle. Garmin and Microair plan and move on box!
You post like lawyer and we know who win money when lawyers arrive. Many people lose money to fraud through builders without laywer success.
Fact - ADS-B already exist, technology exist, aircraft flying through Australian FIR appear on ATC screens.
Move to ADS-B at GA level is simple technology shift if market driven.
Further information is here from informant - I have spoken at length to Microair Avionics about concerns raised. He advised me that the subsidies $10,000.00 for VFR and $15,000.00, were not plucked out of the air, but resulted from Airservices consultation with Avionics suppliers and installers including Hawker Pacific and Microair. He said this will more than cover acquisition and install costs for ADS-B out, however Microair are building in a 1090 Squitter receiver into their units for VFR and IFR giving In capability, a glass display in the cockpit is not included, but this can be displayed on later Garmin units, various MFD's or even on a PDA, their VFR unit will be under $10,000.00. They are building one box for VFR, two for IFR, these will be remote mount units and will not disturb any existing panel installations, or require any panel space.
Racial humour remain your twaddle. Garmin and Microair plan and move on box!
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Creamie
I'm not your runner; suggest address your query to Garmin.
You have a comment from Microair - take it up with Phil if you doubt it.
Agreed there can be no move forward on the subsidy without manufacturer pricing. That is irrelevant to most of the arguments on here about spoofing, orphan technology, 1090ES versus UAT etc.
I'm not your runner; suggest address your query to Garmin.
You have a comment from Microair - take it up with Phil if you doubt it.
Agreed there can be no move forward on the subsidy without manufacturer pricing. That is irrelevant to most of the arguments on here about spoofing, orphan technology, 1090ES versus UAT etc.
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Regarding the Microair ADSB it was headed for about $6-7K from memory, including the GPS engine.
The figures ASA used were very conservative.
Dont ask why I have formed this opinion......I can't tell you! Just trust me!
J
The figures ASA used were very conservative.
Dont ask why I have formed this opinion......I can't tell you! Just trust me!
J
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Jabbawok
I trust you. I have long suspected that the sweetener Airservices intended to trot out was to throw in ADS-B IN in the Microair package at the subsidy value. (I doubt several local frumious bandersnatches will believe you though.)
Peuce
Glad you enjoyed. In case of wonderment, my English is now meticulous because I am now CASA ICAO English Language qualified Level 4 so no more twaddle needed over honkonese "confucious-sion".
I trust you. I have long suspected that the sweetener Airservices intended to trot out was to throw in ADS-B IN in the Microair package at the subsidy value. (I doubt several local frumious bandersnatches will believe you though.)
Peuce
Glad you enjoyed. In case of wonderment, my English is now meticulous because I am now CASA ICAO English Language qualified Level 4 so no more twaddle needed over honkonese "confucious-sion".