Airservices Australia ADS-B program - another Seasprite Fiasco?
Thread Starter
Flying Binghi, re spoofing,if you run the two systems in parallel(ie SSR and ADSB) for 5 or preferably 10 years you would be able to see what the problems are.
Yes, it will cost a few dollars but safety will not be compromised.
Yes, it will cost a few dollars but safety will not be compromised.
Pera, think WW2 London... Think buzz bombs (Hitlers UAV) ... Think about the then public concerns with these 'dumb' bombs.......................
...think about the publics concerns with a Buzz bomb with a delivery accuracy of 30 metres...................................................... ....
These modern 'buzz bombs' i.e. UAVs could be manufactured for a couple of hundred dollars. Thats one scenario any way...
...think about the publics concerns with a Buzz bomb with a delivery accuracy of 30 metres...................................................... ....
These modern 'buzz bombs' i.e. UAVs could be manufactured for a couple of hundred dollars. Thats one scenario any way...
Thread Starter
Quokka, it's not your fault that you were not trained in the proper procedures for class E or that the proper procedures were never introduced in Australia.
This situation existed because your bosses at Airservices never bothered to ask the FAA how class E worked.
And now 6+ years since class E was introduced in Australia they are still ignorant.
Qantas fly in class E everyday in other parts of the world and never ask ATC the callsign of a VFR aircraft they have been given traffic on.
Why is this so? I suggest you talk to Qantas or any FAA ATC as I am sure you will not accept my explanation.
This situation existed because your bosses at Airservices never bothered to ask the FAA how class E worked.
And now 6+ years since class E was introduced in Australia they are still ignorant.
Qantas fly in class E everyday in other parts of the world and never ask ATC the callsign of a VFR aircraft they have been given traffic on.
Why is this so? I suggest you talk to Qantas or any FAA ATC as I am sure you will not accept my explanation.
Flying Binghi,
What is your reasoning behind installing a TAS unit?
Surely everyone is using See and Avoid.
What is your reasoning behind installing a TAS unit?
Surely everyone is using See and Avoid.
After near 25 years of successfully flying without a TAS, I just got the unit so I could speak with at least some personal experience of these systems.
ok, now we're in never never land
.....and who would off thought TWO jets would of been flown into the world trade centre towers
... fairy tale stuff .........and Bushs reaction (and little johny and blair) ...invade Iraq
... mind altering stuff eh
............time for another beer.
Thread Starter
OZBUSDRIVER,Sorry for the delay in replying to your post.
My aim is simple- to prevent Australia from rushing ahead with an ADSB proposal which fails and wastes millions of dollars.
Why do I believe it could fail? Because it's been driven by people who appear to have a similar culture to those who lost us over one billion dollars on the seasprite order.
This culture is one of never asking advice, never copying the success of others and never allowing a broad range of capable experienced experts to be involved.
It's also a culture of believing it's own "spin" ie that everything is positive and beneficial about the project and there is no risk or downside.
It's a culture of never answering a critic- even when the criticisms are valid.
It's a culture of rushing ahead to be "first" rather than being conservative and following a proven system where others have already lost a fortune in finalising and perfecting the design!
My aim is simple- to prevent Australia from rushing ahead with an ADSB proposal which fails and wastes millions of dollars.
Why do I believe it could fail? Because it's been driven by people who appear to have a similar culture to those who lost us over one billion dollars on the seasprite order.
This culture is one of never asking advice, never copying the success of others and never allowing a broad range of capable experienced experts to be involved.
It's also a culture of believing it's own "spin" ie that everything is positive and beneficial about the project and there is no risk or downside.
It's a culture of never answering a critic- even when the criticisms are valid.
It's a culture of rushing ahead to be "first" rather than being conservative and following a proven system where others have already lost a fortune in finalising and perfecting the design!
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Was the Bundaberg trial certified by CASA?
Airservices ran the trial and the data acquired enabled CASA to approve the 5nm lateral separation standard. See CASR Part 172 MOS 10.5.5.2
As to certified ADS-B Out equiement. The current list of approved equipment for use in Australia is here. CAR 207 and CAO 20.18 Section 9B and Appendix XI give the regulatory head of power for this approval.
AC 21-45 contains the guidance needed to gain airwothiness approval the equipment.
ICAO Anex 10 and the RTCA DO - 260 document series also define the performance standards required for 1090ES ADS-B.
I don't think the properly constructed and "certified" ADS-B out equipment is as far fetched as you wish to portray it. In fact it is a reality, here and now.
The safety of traffic separation using only ADS-B information has been demonstrated and approved for operational use. Why does the En-route SSR network need to be maintained when this is so?
As to the contingency arrangments in the event of a loss of GNSS and therfore ADS-B signal, well what do we do now when there is a SSR failure? We revert to procedural. No big deal. Sure it will be inconvenient if you're in the air/at the console at the time but it can be done.
You are correct in that no ADS-B IN units have been "certified" however at this stage there are no procedures fully developed or approved that require ADS-B IN avionics. This is still no reason to delay decommissioning the En-route SSR facilities
The value of ADS-B IN will be in providing situational awareness to RPT/PTO crews when operating in Class E/F/G airspace. However, that value will only be realised when there is fleetwide (or close to it) equippage in much the same way that TCAS is only really useful when there is widespread/universal transponder equippage and use.
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and who would off thought TWO jets would of been flown into the world trade centre towers ... fairy tale stuff
I'm not discounting terrorist threats, but you haven't made an a clear case for your point of view. You are raising an extreme possibility but you are not applying risk assessment to your point of view.
Thread Starter
Gary,what are the costs?
I wanted to get ADSB "out" certified equipment for my 2006 Cessna CJ3 and the quote from Collins was over $100,000.
Now this is for a modern aircraft and is I fear a little more than the $15,000 subsidy for smaller IFR aircraft.
If we in Australia are first in with mandated ADSB we will be ripped off by the rest of the world for sure.
There is no hurry- there is no immediate safety issue to be addressed by rushing into ADSB. It's all being driven by boffins wanting to be first and Airservices wanting to maximise profits.
Do you know of any aircraft owner who has actually installed a certified ADSB unit in an Australian aircraft and what the cost was?
I wanted to get ADSB "out" certified equipment for my 2006 Cessna CJ3 and the quote from Collins was over $100,000.
Now this is for a modern aircraft and is I fear a little more than the $15,000 subsidy for smaller IFR aircraft.
If we in Australia are first in with mandated ADSB we will be ripped off by the rest of the world for sure.
There is no hurry- there is no immediate safety issue to be addressed by rushing into ADSB. It's all being driven by boffins wanting to be first and Airservices wanting to maximise profits.
Do you know of any aircraft owner who has actually installed a certified ADSB unit in an Australian aircraft and what the cost was?
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Mr Dick Smith
Is not the Garmin GTX 330ES that was mentioned earlier compliant?
If so, it is nowhere near this $100,000 you quote. One suspects $5000?
You suggest there may be a little extra cost in running dual systems - I question who will pay that cost - does not Airservices raise its operating capital from fees to users?
It is of interest that this 1090ES is considered by you to be somehow at risk of reliability or expense yet is apparently the accepted standard at airline altitudes? Is it not now appearing on ATC screens around the world already?
It seems to me that this ADS-B is a technological development that provides radar equvalence at cheaper cost due to technology. Is not radar over 60 years old? Will we still be keeping our old mobile telefone each time we get a new one (at our cost) to ensure the new one works OK? How much 60 year old technology did you keep in your electronics shops?
I remain very puzzled about this opposition to this technology. On this debate there is much emotion and diversion.
Is not the Garmin GTX 330ES that was mentioned earlier compliant?
If so, it is nowhere near this $100,000 you quote. One suspects $5000?
You suggest there may be a little extra cost in running dual systems - I question who will pay that cost - does not Airservices raise its operating capital from fees to users?
It is of interest that this 1090ES is considered by you to be somehow at risk of reliability or expense yet is apparently the accepted standard at airline altitudes? Is it not now appearing on ATC screens around the world already?
It seems to me that this ADS-B is a technological development that provides radar equvalence at cheaper cost due to technology. Is not radar over 60 years old? Will we still be keeping our old mobile telefone each time we get a new one (at our cost) to ensure the new one works OK? How much 60 year old technology did you keep in your electronics shops?
I remain very puzzled about this opposition to this technology. On this debate there is much emotion and diversion.
Thread Starter
James, the Garmin unit does not include a GPS.
Airservices imply that you just run a wire to a certified GPS and everything is approved.
This is not so.
If ADSB is so simple and proven and risk free why are Airservices spending millions of dollars of our industries money on a totally different system in Tasmania?
It's called "Multilateration" and works with standard transponders and keeps working if the GPS system has a fault.
Try and get that question answered!
More importantly' Airservices are having problems with the high level ADSB system with delays and cost overuns.
They can't even get the data transfer between the ADSB transceivers going without problems and I understand in mid-stream they have been forced to change contractors.
A similar situation occurred with the Seasprite contract before the Government stepped in and cancelled the project.
Their ADSB plan is totally based on the financial saving made by the early removal of the existing SSR units -and thats where the risk is. By not entering a contract now to refurbish or replace the radars(which is their stated plan) they have all their eggs in one basket. If the ADSB contract does not go as planned we are completely stuffed in Australia.
Airservices imply that you just run a wire to a certified GPS and everything is approved.
This is not so.
If ADSB is so simple and proven and risk free why are Airservices spending millions of dollars of our industries money on a totally different system in Tasmania?
It's called "Multilateration" and works with standard transponders and keeps working if the GPS system has a fault.
Try and get that question answered!
More importantly' Airservices are having problems with the high level ADSB system with delays and cost overuns.
They can't even get the data transfer between the ADSB transceivers going without problems and I understand in mid-stream they have been forced to change contractors.
A similar situation occurred with the Seasprite contract before the Government stepped in and cancelled the project.
Their ADSB plan is totally based on the financial saving made by the early removal of the existing SSR units -and thats where the risk is. By not entering a contract now to refurbish or replace the radars(which is their stated plan) they have all their eggs in one basket. If the ADSB contract does not go as planned we are completely stuffed in Australia.
Thread Starter
Remember when Australia led the world with the Microwave Landing System (MLS)?
Tens of millions of dollars were spent by the industry(mainly AWA) and the Government.
It was claimed that our country was leading the world and a fortune was going to be made.
Unfortunately not so.
The problem was that enough critical questions were not asked at the time. Those involved got carried away with their own B-S. I am afraid and all the money was lost
I totally support the concept of ADSB however I see substantial risk in moving too quickly without honestly looking at all of the complex issues in a totally open way.
And James, it's not just me that Airservices have kept out of the loop for the last 5 years- it appears to be anyone who may have a different view.
Tens of millions of dollars were spent by the industry(mainly AWA) and the Government.
It was claimed that our country was leading the world and a fortune was going to be made.
Unfortunately not so.
The problem was that enough critical questions were not asked at the time. Those involved got carried away with their own B-S. I am afraid and all the money was lost
I totally support the concept of ADSB however I see substantial risk in moving too quickly without honestly looking at all of the complex issues in a totally open way.
And James, it's not just me that Airservices have kept out of the loop for the last 5 years- it appears to be anyone who may have a different view.
did they turn off GPS when this happenned!
I'm not discounting terrorist threats, but you haven't made an a clear case for your point of view. You are raising an extreme possibility but you are not applying risk assessment to your point of view.
I guess you dont want a $500 bombed up UAV launched from a boat to interfere with Airservices implementing ADS-B. ...Talking it away does not make it go away.
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Mr Dick Smith
My confusion is still with me.
I find re garmin that they say, as one example:
• GTX 33 ES, prelim price $5,195 $US
I put emphasis in red - this shows wire can be connect, and with market push perhaps bulk price be below $5000 USA?
I comprehend concern about unique Australian systems. But is not your quote about sole Australian system AWA MLS, but of ADS-B we speak of system already in use in many ICAO country and international aircraft?
Is there obstacle to Airservices moving to ADS-B soon without dismantle radar so radar is backup?
My confusion is still with me.
I find re garmin that they say, as one example:
GTX 33 Mode S Remote Mount
•
Solid state design, remote squawk entry via G1000 and GNS480
• Voltage 11 - 33VDC
• Transmit power 250 watts
• Dimensions: 6.92”W x 1.78”H x 11.05D, weight 4.3 lbs
• TSO C166a
• GTX 33 ES, prelim price $5,195 $US
I comprehend concern about unique Australian systems. But is not your quote about sole Australian system AWA MLS, but of ADS-B we speak of system already in use in many ICAO country and international aircraft?
Is there obstacle to Airservices moving to ADS-B soon without dismantle radar so radar is backup?
I see in my latest Flight mag that the USA is pushing ahead with ADS-B: flight testing of three stations in the Miami region has commenced, with a fully operational service in southern Florida by August. By late 2010, they'll have 40 stations running across the country, and 793 (!) ground stations by 2013.
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There is no hurry- there is no immediate safety issue to be addressed by rushing into ADSB. It's all being driven by boffins wanting to be first and Airservices wanting to maximise profits.
Speaking from personal experience, the mining boom is making the WA mining traffic busier and busier. I've worked shifts over summer where it has taken 2 experienced controllers to run ONE sector....without weather diversions! How long do we go on increasing traffic numbers without surveillance being implemented? We work like crazy trying to get everyone a clearance and when it doesn't work they get stuck OCTA. From experience, the average Ba146 pilot does NOT like being stuck below F180 for long...let alone the F100/B717's.
Close calls? About 1 air-prox outside of controlled airspace every 6 months, that we know of.
Sure WAARP and 7nm cross track tolerances will help, but only so much.
Personally i don't give a crap if it's ADS-B or SSR, but i don't see anyone volunteering to pay for the 3+ SSR's it would take to cover the peak areas of WA alone.
You may see the "boffins" pushing this for "profits", i see a vast amount of our airspace lacking surveillance, and a long term alternative to radar being pissed on by the "chicken littlers" and conspiracy theorists!