Airservices Australia ADS-B program - another Seasprite Fiasco?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Bob, Great question!
I mean that in all sincerity.
I can not speak for OZBUS, but for myself its not when I am bugsmashing around myself............. my passion is for all the small RPT and bigger who really could do with the surveillence.
Its when my bum, your bum, and all our fellow Australians bums, and out beloved tourists bums are in those RPT seats, be they Metro's or A320's.
Too many of the folk here are two self centred in their thoughts about this topic and need to look outside the box they fly in.
The problem is we need to carry a small box, paid for by the big end of town.............and we might gain some small benefit also......so whats the problem!!!!
I think we have would have to all agree here....... I hope!
J
I mean that in all sincerity.
What fuels your passion?
Its when my bum, your bum, and all our fellow Australians bums, and out beloved tourists bums are in those RPT seats, be they Metro's or A320's.
Too many of the folk here are two self centred in their thoughts about this topic and need to look outside the box they fly in.
The problem is we need to carry a small box, paid for by the big end of town.............and we might gain some small benefit also......so whats the problem!!!!
I think we have would have to all agree here....... I hope!
J
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
FB
Play the ball..............love too, but my score card is ever increasing and you must be getting very tired from the number of WIDES you keep bowling!
J
re. playing the "ball and not the man" ... good idea, apart from much silly abuse I am yet to see any real challange to the GPS Guided Buzz Bomb scenario .................. care to play the ball Jabawocky 
J
Bob, ask yourself why you allowed transponders to be fitted to VFR GA all those years ago? That is answer enough.
ADS-B is just another type of SSR. What AirServices need is to fit out as many aircraft as possible that already use the airspace with a new transponder. The ADS-B SSR system is a lot cheaper to deploy, doesn't take as much real estate and is more robust than SSR for reliability in service.
The nay sayers have tried to wieve a story of the "Boogy Man Is ADS-B" to try and scare all the VFR kiddies into sleepless nights. Frankly, its getting quite weak. It is just another SSR.
I just wonder. Bob, Did you lose the transponder battle last time?
For me as an "amateur" bug smasher driver. I still see transponders as necessary equipment to access controlled airspace. As MicroAir advertises, A transponder "Unlocks Airspace" Nothing sinister about that!
Agree with Jaba. It's all there in SDDs post with the MATS.
ADS-B is just another type of SSR. What AirServices need is to fit out as many aircraft as possible that already use the airspace with a new transponder. The ADS-B SSR system is a lot cheaper to deploy, doesn't take as much real estate and is more robust than SSR for reliability in service.
The nay sayers have tried to wieve a story of the "Boogy Man Is ADS-B" to try and scare all the VFR kiddies into sleepless nights. Frankly, its getting quite weak. It is just another SSR.
I just wonder. Bob, Did you lose the transponder battle last time?
For me as an "amateur" bug smasher driver. I still see transponders as necessary equipment to access controlled airspace. As MicroAir advertises, A transponder "Unlocks Airspace" Nothing sinister about that!
Agree with Jaba. It's all there in SDDs post with the MATS.
OZBUSDRIVER cut and run.............
Well looks like Jabawocky is running away as well
Scurvy.D.Dog, as it seems I've missed the rebutale to the GPS guided Buzz Bomb scenario 
... perhaps you care to recover a few of the key rebutle details then.........
........................
Play the ball..............love too.........
It has been answered in every aspect by many people many times
... perhaps you care to recover a few of the key rebutle details then.................................
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Just to add something OZ, transponders are also pretty darn good targets for TCAS.......... and I think many of the ilinformed are those who do not believe in them in the present system.
As an example, a couple of weeks ago, 6 light aircraft + 1 Q400, all converging on YHID, all estimating arrival over a span of 4 minutes, from varying different heights and directions.
I could hear the concern in the voice of the Q400 driver, and his requests for all a/c to ensure they had Mode C turned on.
All bar one had a transponder in this case. And just to be cheeky, the rego did not contain any VH's.........
For those who do not want to pay for even a mode C...... here is a chance to get both for free..........
J
As an example, a couple of weeks ago, 6 light aircraft + 1 Q400, all converging on YHID, all estimating arrival over a span of 4 minutes, from varying different heights and directions.
I could hear the concern in the voice of the Q400 driver, and his requests for all a/c to ensure they had Mode C turned on.
All bar one had a transponder in this case. And just to be cheeky, the rego did not contain any VH's........
.For those who do not want to pay for even a mode C...... here is a chance to get both for free..........
J
Just to add something OZ, transponders are also pretty darn good targets for TCAS.......... and I think many of the ilinformed are those who do not believe in them in the present system.
As an example, a couple of weeks ago, 6 light aircraft + 1 Q400, all converging on YHID, all estimating arrival over a span of 4 minutes, from varying different heights and directions.
I could hear the concern in the voice of the Q400 driver, and his requests for all a/c to ensure they had Mode C turned on.
All bar one had a transponder in this case. And just to be cheeky, the rego did not contain any VH's.........
For those who do not want to pay for even a mode C...... here is a chance to get both for free
As an example, a couple of weeks ago, 6 light aircraft + 1 Q400, all converging on YHID, all estimating arrival over a span of 4 minutes, from varying different heights and directions.
I could hear the concern in the voice of the Q400 driver, and his requests for all a/c to ensure they had Mode C turned on.
All bar one had a transponder in this case. And just to be cheeky, the rego did not contain any VH's........
.For those who do not want to pay for even a mode C...... here is a chance to get both for free
....... hopeing to aviod a particular subject are we
Join Date: May 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FB,
Your buzzbomb scenario is possible, but extremely unlikely. I can't say never, no-one can.
As you cannot say it will definitely happen, and that in the unlikely event of it occurring, that the Yanks will definitely switch GPS off.
So what chance of your scenario happening and GPS being switched off? This is called risk
What are the worldwide pluses of GPS?
This is called benefit.
What can we do if this risk comes to pass and how can we mitigate it.
In relation to ADS-B in Australia, and worldwide because the other developed nations are going down this path, we have Primary and Secondary radars in the high traffic areas and we can go to procedural control.
I assume you are a VFR pilot, so it probably means you've done time in single-engined aircraft. When you fly are you looking out the window just keeping a check on what might be a suitable landing area if the engine chooses that moment to die on you.
Before flying did you decide that there is a chance the engine might die on me today, I'd better not go flying, or did you assess the risk, work out how to mitigate it and decided to go flying anyway?
You seem to want someone on here to give you an ironclad guarantee that buzzbombs won't happen. Sorry can't be done. What people have been trying to explain to you, is that we can't see your scenario being a worthwhile reason to stop the implementation of ADS-B.
Lets move on, your argument can't be rebutted.
By its very nature GPS is a tool to move things very accurately from Point A to point B. But that is all it is , a tool. As is a hammer, a car, a plane or a gun.
Your buzzbomb scenario is possible, but extremely unlikely. I can't say never, no-one can.
As you cannot say it will definitely happen, and that in the unlikely event of it occurring, that the Yanks will definitely switch GPS off.
So what chance of your scenario happening and GPS being switched off? This is called risk
What are the worldwide pluses of GPS?
This is called benefit.
What can we do if this risk comes to pass and how can we mitigate it.
In relation to ADS-B in Australia, and worldwide because the other developed nations are going down this path, we have Primary and Secondary radars in the high traffic areas and we can go to procedural control.
I assume you are a VFR pilot, so it probably means you've done time in single-engined aircraft. When you fly are you looking out the window just keeping a check on what might be a suitable landing area if the engine chooses that moment to die on you.
Before flying did you decide that there is a chance the engine might die on me today, I'd better not go flying, or did you assess the risk, work out how to mitigate it and decided to go flying anyway?
You seem to want someone on here to give you an ironclad guarantee that buzzbombs won't happen. Sorry can't be done. What people have been trying to explain to you, is that we can't see your scenario being a worthwhile reason to stop the implementation of ADS-B.
Lets move on, your argument can't be rebutted.
By its very nature GPS is a tool to move things very accurately from Point A to point B. But that is all it is , a tool. As is a hammer, a car, a plane or a gun.
Max1, I'm wondering if its worth replying to you after your post pp36/720 ...I'm persistant though, so will have another go
We've already covered a lot in posts 35/689 thru 36/720 so I will only deal with your latest post -
max1,I've covered the avionics in my aircraft before (post 37/737), though not my own lic. details - Command S/E NDB, VOR, ILS, LLZ, RNAV, DGA. And, as I've said, I'm nothing special, just an aircraft owner and pilot with some concerns.
The decision to fly single engine is up to me alone - maybe I fly today, maybe I dont. I dont see how that relates to the terrorist miss-use of GPS which can affect all pilots. And how will that affect all pilots ... well look at some of the results of the 9II event - ASICs and fenceing of bush airstrips... all that just to attempt to stop a 'one off' event, e.g. a suicide attacker. What happens when those GPS guided Buzz Bombs start wandering in over the coastline at a lazy 60 -70 knots ? ...Lets hope our ATC system has'nt got too GPS reliant, or it will be chaos.
max1, I dont know the probabilitys, though I do note that OZBUSDRIVER has helpfully pionted out to me that another pprune poster had already covered a simular concept - I wonder who else has thought of it ?
.
We've already covered a lot in posts 35/689 thru 36/720 so I will only deal with your latest post -
I assume you are a VFR pilot
Before flying did you decide that there is a chance the engine might die on me today, I'd better not go flying, or did you assess the risk, work out how to mitigate it and decided to go flying anyway?
Your buzzbomb scenario is possible, but extremely unlikely.
.
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 31st Jul 2008 at 09:16.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually I do remember when transponders became mandatory all those years ago. They were mandated "to fly into a radar control zone". Bloke, namebilong Cox had a DH86 in Camden and he and I flew what could well be about the last non transponder equiped aircraft into Mascot. This was primary radar, report over Canterbury Racecourse just in case though.
But I was still flying non transponder equiped aircraft many many years after that date because I had no reason to fly into Major Capital City airports.
TCAS, not the mandating of the transponder had me accept it.
Things evolve, things change, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.
Right now, I just don't see how it improves on what I've already got. I would, as previously stated, welcome a phased in approach without the spears jabbing my bum to accept a subsidy which I don't think will materialise. The silence of the lambs doesn't mean they support the concept, just that they are apathetic.
But who cares.
Call me a sceptic also, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy.
Liars can't be trusted, yet we vote them in at every election.
Edit for reporting point.
But I was still flying non transponder equiped aircraft many many years after that date because I had no reason to fly into Major Capital City airports.
TCAS, not the mandating of the transponder had me accept it.
Things evolve, things change, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.
Right now, I just don't see how it improves on what I've already got. I would, as previously stated, welcome a phased in approach without the spears jabbing my bum to accept a subsidy which I don't think will materialise. The silence of the lambs doesn't mean they support the concept, just that they are apathetic.
But who cares.
Call me a sceptic also, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy.
Liars can't be trusted, yet we vote them in at every election.
Edit for reporting point.
Last edited by Bob Murphie; 31st Jul 2008 at 06:59.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
FB
Not running away...... just can not hit the ball when its a wide, and going past second slip..........
Actually I was hoping to understand your next question 
Mr Murphie,
While we are coming from opposing camps, at least there is some rational content in your post, while I am struggling to get a grip on others. You said just now........
That is very true....... FOR YOU. And for most GA PVT and AG or similar small commercial ops. ME INCLUDED.
I do not need TCAS now...... but I have a transponder now because the bigger flying machines with fare paying passengers do have the TCAS and really do need it.
Next step along in the process of development is ADSB.........great improvements for surveillence, safety and efficiency for the medium to larger operators......and ATC, who even when you are VFR in the greater Class G, still offer you a service if you need it. So where is the benifit to the small guy....... not getting run over by a 737 in a CTAF R for a start! You can work the rest out or read the hundreds of posts here and elsewhere or go to the appropriate websites. Its all there.
As for being a bit skeptical.....understood, and yes the liars that get voted in and all that........ but ADSB was not born of Government......it was from Industry for Industry!
J
Not running away...... just can not hit the ball when its a wide, and going past second slip..........
hopeing to aviod a particular subject are we
Mr Murphie,
While we are coming from opposing camps, at least there is some rational content in your post, while I am struggling to get a grip on others. You said just now........
Right now, I just don't see how it improves on what I've already got.
I do not need TCAS now...... but I have a transponder now because the bigger flying machines with fare paying passengers do have the TCAS and really do need it.
Next step along in the process of development is ADSB.........great improvements for surveillence, safety and efficiency for the medium to larger operators......and ATC, who even when you are VFR in the greater Class G, still offer you a service if you need it. So where is the benifit to the small guy....... not getting run over by a 737 in a CTAF R for a start! You can work the rest out or read the hundreds of posts here and elsewhere or go to the appropriate websites. Its all there.
As for being a bit skeptical.....understood, and yes the liars that get voted in and all that........ but ADSB was not born of Government......it was from Industry for Industry!
J
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My having a transponder is so those with TCAS can see me.
I fly VFR. My eyesight is enough to fly in this enviromnent.
If RPT want to fly VFR and they have the benefit of TCAS, they should at least look out the window as well.
ATC offer me no service now when I fly outside of the "system" ie. without flight details lodged. Indeed they ignore me. Once I took off and forgot to set local QNH and as it was quiet I asked Centre for Area QHN. I have heard more civil responses from Magistrates sentencing drug dealers.
I'm happy to see what happens in the future, but I'm not going to rush out to access the first "free" aluminium cladding for my home until the termites are got rid of.
I fly VFR. My eyesight is enough to fly in this enviromnent.
If RPT want to fly VFR and they have the benefit of TCAS, they should at least look out the window as well.
ATC offer me no service now when I fly outside of the "system" ie. without flight details lodged. Indeed they ignore me. Once I took off and forgot to set local QNH and as it was quiet I asked Centre for Area QHN. I have heard more civil responses from Magistrates sentencing drug dealers.
I'm happy to see what happens in the future, but I'm not going to rush out to access the first "free" aluminium cladding for my home until the termites are got rid of.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz
Age: 77
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If RPT want to fly VFR
I guess ADS-B IN or the ADSBI-TCAS patch will allow such savings to continue
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
ATC offer me no service now when I fly outside of the "system" ie. without flight details lodged. Indeed they ignore me. Once I took off and forgot to set local QNH and as it was quiet I asked Centre for Area QHN. I have heard more civil responses from Magistrates sentencing drug dealers.
J
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the the life of brian and as an amateur aviator, when IFR Regionals enter a CTAF they become VFR otherwise if doing a non precision approach the VFR traffic is on the ground because it is IFR. Does that sound right?
I think it's called something like decision height where they eventually have to look out the window.
I think it's called something like decision height where they eventually have to look out the window.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Bob,
I am not really sure of your real world flying experience, however I think its far greater than mine and your last post would have me believe. I have no axe to grind with you and I know others bag you regarding AOPA or some other group in the distant past, so I am not posting this as anti Bob Murphie at all, but seriously you do not really believe that is how things really are...... I hope
.
IFR into say Bundy or Horn Island or worse......Jets into Hervey Bay, on a NPA, break free off IMC not much above the circuit height, were anything from Dick in his Citation to old mate the drifter Driver and the Trike Flyer (could be Dick in that too) are buzzing around obliviously under a cool overcast.
Sure at many of the hundreds of ALA's in the bush, this is not a problem, but at many other places it is and there have been some pretty close calls in a few ports that I know off, and I think some do not get reported either!
So if that is really all there is against a full and complete ADSB rollout...... I guess we should see it in the very near future!
J
I am not really sure of your real world flying experience, however I think its far greater than mine and your last post would have me believe. I have no axe to grind with you and I know others bag you regarding AOPA or some other group in the distant past, so I am not posting this as anti Bob Murphie at all, but seriously you do not really believe that is how things really are...... I hope
.IFR into say Bundy or Horn Island or worse......Jets into Hervey Bay, on a NPA, break free off IMC not much above the circuit height, were anything from Dick in his Citation to old mate the drifter Driver and the Trike Flyer (could be Dick in that too) are buzzing around obliviously under a cool overcast.
Sure at many of the hundreds of ALA's in the bush, this is not a problem, but at many other places it is and there have been some pretty close calls in a few ports that I know off, and I think some do not get reported either!
So if that is really all there is against a full and complete ADSB rollout...... I guess we should see it in the very near future!
J
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: inner suburbia
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
alerted see and avoid
Bob.
I have a hard time visually spotting traffic.
It may well be that your eyes and pattern-recognition are better than mine, but I want artificial aids (eg ATC, ADSB-IN, radio calls), to help me know where everyone is., especially near or in a busy CTAF.
I have a hard time visually spotting traffic.
It may well be that your eyes and pattern-recognition are better than mine, but I want artificial aids (eg ATC, ADSB-IN, radio calls), to help me know where everyone is., especially near or in a busy CTAF.
I have a hard time visually spotting traffic if I have no hint as to where to look for it.
It may well be that your eyes and pattern-recognition are better than mine, but I want artificial aids (eg ATC, ADSB-IN, radio calls), to help me know where everyone is., especially near or in a busy CTAF.
It may well be that your eyes and pattern-recognition are better than mine, but I want artificial aids (eg ATC, ADSB-IN, radio calls), to help me know where everyone is., especially near or in a busy CTAF.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: inner suburbia
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, Mr Binghi, no.
The only traffic avoidance system that I have is (a) radio, and (b) ATC if I'm on an IFR plan and within radar coverage.
'See and Avoid' simply doesn't work very well for me. I require more warning of impending badness.
I really really really don't like the idea of descending or climbing though unknown traffic at choke points such as a CTAF, anywhere.
The only traffic avoidance system that I have is (a) radio, and (b) ATC if I'm on an IFR plan and within radar coverage.
'See and Avoid' simply doesn't work very well for me. I require more warning of impending badness.
I really really really don't like the idea of descending or climbing though unknown traffic at choke points such as a CTAF, anywhere.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jabawocky and Biggles in Oz;
As one can't be half pregnant, nor should there be any doubt about what is IFR and what is VFR. Much has been written about this.
If RPT or somebody TCAS equiped or not,descends into a CTAF they are either visual or doing a non precision IFR approach at minimums. In either case somebody should be looking out the window in addition to ATC or TCAS information. If it is IFR to minimums, VFR traffic "should" be on the ground, BUT in case of some Croppie or Drifter beetling around the CTAF, they "should" alert all via wireless communication.
You can't legislate against stupidity, so it beholds all to look out the window in addition to radio, ATC information and TCAS information.
I think it's called the triple condom thingy.
BTW and not wanting to draw bow strings further, has it occurred to the VFR pilots out there that IFR traffic need an alternate and if some outage occurs with new fangled technology, the alternate has to be one of the aids that the salesmen are talking about decomissioning.
No, sorry, lets not go there.
As one can't be half pregnant, nor should there be any doubt about what is IFR and what is VFR. Much has been written about this.
If RPT or somebody TCAS equiped or not,descends into a CTAF they are either visual or doing a non precision IFR approach at minimums. In either case somebody should be looking out the window in addition to ATC or TCAS information. If it is IFR to minimums, VFR traffic "should" be on the ground, BUT in case of some Croppie or Drifter beetling around the CTAF, they "should" alert all via wireless communication.
You can't legislate against stupidity, so it beholds all to look out the window in addition to radio, ATC information and TCAS information.
I think it's called the triple condom thingy.
BTW and not wanting to draw bow strings further, has it occurred to the VFR pilots out there that IFR traffic need an alternate and if some outage occurs with new fangled technology, the alternate has to be one of the aids that the salesmen are talking about decomissioning.
No, sorry, lets not go there.