NSW Police Officer Boards Plane with Gun
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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G'day Keg,
There is a distinct difference though between airside area and sterile area. Depends on which airport and how the zones are laid out. I don't believe anything in the regs precludes them from having their weapons in the airside area but it is the sterile area and passage to the screened service that throws the different light on it.
eye_in_the_sky, just out of interest, are you a copper?
There is a distinct difference though between airside area and sterile area. Depends on which airport and how the zones are laid out. I don't believe anything in the regs precludes them from having their weapons in the airside area but it is the sterile area and passage to the screened service that throws the different light on it.
eye_in_the_sky, just out of interest, are you a copper?
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Rotaryman, don't take this the wrong way but you might want to get your facts right before posting them as gospel.
A good place to start may be reading the Aviation Transport Security Act and the associated regs, with particular attention to the definition of a police officer in the Act, which clearly states a police officer is a member of the AFP or a member of a police force of a state or territory, or a special member of the AFP or a special member of a state or territory.
An AFP officer has no more powers at an airport than a member of of a state police force and in fact have fewer powers as they do not have a general ability to enforce state statutes. CTFR officers are different again and have no ability to enforce or arrest for any offences not related to aviation as they are not sworn police officers, however they are clearly authorised under the broader definitions. Airports sit on Commonwealth land, however thy are not commonwealth territory, so there there is no general right for AFP to have jursidiction there, no more at say a Centrelink office, or other commonwealth office that exists within a State.
Under the Commonwealth Application of Laws Act of 1970 (go look it up, you may learn something) State officers have the power to enforce the full range of Commonwealth offences - there is a significant and very erronous belief out there that state powers stop at the airside/landside divide. The airside/landside divide has no significance for enforcement in relation to criminal matters except that when there is a commonwealth offences detected on airport it will normally be dealt with by AFP members. Stealing airside is the same as stealing landside, except when it involves duty free goods, when a separate offence against the Customs Act is created in the way of interfereing with bonded goods.
With the AFP performing uniformed policing on major airports nationally, it makes sense for them to handle commonwealth or aviation offences, however they do not have any authority to manage emergencies or major incidents on airports as they are not recognised within the relevant legislation.
Wun & Keg, with regard to the issue of the sterile zone there is no difference about what agency can and can't carry firearms in the sterile zones or the Security Restricted Areas. If memory serves me correctly, S83 of the Aviation Transport Security Act states a police officer may enter and remain on any part of an airport at any time. (and reference to the definition, this is again clear as to who can do what/go where).
Wun makes reference to the issue of NSW police performing duty at Sydney Airport. Technically at all designated airports the AFP perform uniformed duties using members of each state police force who are seconded to the AFP, sworn in as AFP special members. This means they can exercise their full range of state powers and commonwealth powers, however whiilst seconded they are performing duty as an AFP member and under the full direction and authority of the AFP. This is not to say NSW officers cannot enter and do any of the tasks that the AFP do, except there are MOU's in place between the state and commonwealth as to range of duties to be performed, range of influence and when the state assumes control over incidents on airport.
So Rotaryman, I hope this clears up some of your wrongly formed beliefs; just be grateful you haven't been ramped yet at an airport and found a broom handle up you arse when you tried to tell someone they couldn't do something they clearly can!
.
A good place to start may be reading the Aviation Transport Security Act and the associated regs, with particular attention to the definition of a police officer in the Act, which clearly states a police officer is a member of the AFP or a member of a police force of a state or territory, or a special member of the AFP or a special member of a state or territory.
An AFP officer has no more powers at an airport than a member of of a state police force and in fact have fewer powers as they do not have a general ability to enforce state statutes. CTFR officers are different again and have no ability to enforce or arrest for any offences not related to aviation as they are not sworn police officers, however they are clearly authorised under the broader definitions. Airports sit on Commonwealth land, however thy are not commonwealth territory, so there there is no general right for AFP to have jursidiction there, no more at say a Centrelink office, or other commonwealth office that exists within a State.
Under the Commonwealth Application of Laws Act of 1970 (go look it up, you may learn something) State officers have the power to enforce the full range of Commonwealth offences - there is a significant and very erronous belief out there that state powers stop at the airside/landside divide. The airside/landside divide has no significance for enforcement in relation to criminal matters except that when there is a commonwealth offences detected on airport it will normally be dealt with by AFP members. Stealing airside is the same as stealing landside, except when it involves duty free goods, when a separate offence against the Customs Act is created in the way of interfereing with bonded goods.
With the AFP performing uniformed policing on major airports nationally, it makes sense for them to handle commonwealth or aviation offences, however they do not have any authority to manage emergencies or major incidents on airports as they are not recognised within the relevant legislation.
Wun & Keg, with regard to the issue of the sterile zone there is no difference about what agency can and can't carry firearms in the sterile zones or the Security Restricted Areas. If memory serves me correctly, S83 of the Aviation Transport Security Act states a police officer may enter and remain on any part of an airport at any time. (and reference to the definition, this is again clear as to who can do what/go where).
Wun makes reference to the issue of NSW police performing duty at Sydney Airport. Technically at all designated airports the AFP perform uniformed duties using members of each state police force who are seconded to the AFP, sworn in as AFP special members. This means they can exercise their full range of state powers and commonwealth powers, however whiilst seconded they are performing duty as an AFP member and under the full direction and authority of the AFP. This is not to say NSW officers cannot enter and do any of the tasks that the AFP do, except there are MOU's in place between the state and commonwealth as to range of duties to be performed, range of influence and when the state assumes control over incidents on airport.
So Rotaryman, I hope this clears up some of your wrongly formed beliefs; just be grateful you haven't been ramped yet at an airport and found a broom handle up you arse when you tried to tell someone they couldn't do something they clearly can!
.
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1. Islander Jock - thanks for information on who to call. I was deafened by the silence and indifference.
2. Max Autobrakes – maybe QF keep family out of the cockpit, but I can truthfully report several recent examples of VB ‘inviting’ passengers to the flight deck . . . and in both instances she stayed there for take off, cruise and landing.
There are some double standards in airports and on aircraft . . . but as ‘eye in the sky’ states, who really gives a sh*t?
Cheers
2. Max Autobrakes – maybe QF keep family out of the cockpit, but I can truthfully report several recent examples of VB ‘inviting’ passengers to the flight deck . . . and in both instances she stayed there for take off, cruise and landing.
There are some double standards in airports and on aircraft . . . but as ‘eye in the sky’ states, who really gives a sh*t?
Cheers
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But we still haven't answered the question.................what was the ******* idiot thinking (or not)? Apparently an education officer - educates others, just not himself! Never seen it before, hopefully we won't again, but a fairly substantial failure to pick it up. I'm banking that it was entirely unintentional - If he didn't know any differently, and no one told him otherwise, I can see how he would slip by. Doesn't say much for terminal staff and crew though.........
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Lummox spelled out what Moniker said, and very nicely put too.
I'll wager here, that with the firearm being in a briefcase knowledge of the requirements is shown, and was an attempt to comply.
Who's to know, just maybe permission had been granted in this circumstance for this method of transport. No mention (that I'm aware of), of where the ammunition and magazine were.
What if the weapon was being transported up for court and was part of the physical evidence - it would need to be "hand to hand" to preserve the chain of evidence, would it not?
Agree with Whitney, think the whole story is still out there.
I'll wager here, that with the firearm being in a briefcase knowledge of the requirements is shown, and was an attempt to comply.
Who's to know, just maybe permission had been granted in this circumstance for this method of transport. No mention (that I'm aware of), of where the ammunition and magazine were.
What if the weapon was being transported up for court and was part of the physical evidence - it would need to be "hand to hand" to preserve the chain of evidence, would it not?
Agree with Whitney, think the whole story is still out there.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Lummox,
Good post mate. I have to admit, I usually take my guidance from the regs rather than referring to the actual Act
Section 46 of the ACT also makes it clear that a "law enforcement officer" may have a weapon in any part of a security controlled airport.
In relation to weapons on board:
Sect 48 - Weapons on board an aircraft - strict liability
(1) A person commits an offence if;
(a) the person is on board a prescribed aircraft; and
(b) the person:
(i) carries a weapon; or
(ii) otherwise has in his or her possession a weapon that is located at a place that is accessible to the person; and
(c) the person is not a law enforcemetn officer; and
(d) the carriage or possession of the weapon is not authorised by the regulations or permitted in writing by the Secretary; and
(e) neither of the following apply;
(i) the weapon is under the control of the pilot in command of the aircraft because the equipment of the aircraft in accordance with the operations manual for the aircraft.
(ii) the weapon is under control of the pilot in command of the aircraft because of an animal that could endanger the safety of the aircraft, or the safety of people on board the aircraft, is being carried on board the aircraft.
Sect 49 "Weapons on board an aircraft - general" has the same provision.
Maybe it's too early in the morning but I'm getting a bit confused as it would appear that the Act acually allows for a law enforcement officer to have a weapon on an aircraft.
But then again I guess the relevant police internal regulations would clearly specify under what conditions weapons may be carried or are required to be surrendered.
Good post mate. I have to admit, I usually take my guidance from the regs rather than referring to the actual Act
Section 46 of the ACT also makes it clear that a "law enforcement officer" may have a weapon in any part of a security controlled airport.
In relation to weapons on board:
Sect 48 - Weapons on board an aircraft - strict liability
(1) A person commits an offence if;
(a) the person is on board a prescribed aircraft; and
(b) the person:
(i) carries a weapon; or
(ii) otherwise has in his or her possession a weapon that is located at a place that is accessible to the person; and
(c) the person is not a law enforcemetn officer; and
(d) the carriage or possession of the weapon is not authorised by the regulations or permitted in writing by the Secretary; and
(e) neither of the following apply;
(i) the weapon is under the control of the pilot in command of the aircraft because the equipment of the aircraft in accordance with the operations manual for the aircraft.
(ii) the weapon is under control of the pilot in command of the aircraft because of an animal that could endanger the safety of the aircraft, or the safety of people on board the aircraft, is being carried on board the aircraft.
Sect 49 "Weapons on board an aircraft - general" has the same provision.
Maybe it's too early in the morning but I'm getting a bit confused as it would appear that the Act acually allows for a law enforcement officer to have a weapon on an aircraft.
But then again I guess the relevant police internal regulations would clearly specify under what conditions weapons may be carried or are required to be surrendered.
Last edited by Islander Jock; 3rd Jul 2008 at 23:39.
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Maybe the gun was empty?
Maybe the bullets were in a separate bag in the cargo hold?
woops sorry Voice - I re read through your post and just noted you raised a similiar observation. Box of donuts coming your way.
Maybe the bullets were in a separate bag in the cargo hold?
woops sorry Voice - I re read through your post and just noted you raised a similiar observation. Box of donuts coming your way.
Last edited by Muffinman; 3rd Jul 2008 at 23:54. Reason: dont rush - always read the question
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I guess thats why we have the Police Commisioner on the news stating.
" Yes one of my officers has done the wrong thing and we are investigating"
thelummox: your sarcasm only demeens youself, take a chill pill....
" Yes one of my officers has done the wrong thing and we are investigating"
thelummox: your sarcasm only demeens youself, take a chill pill....
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thelummox: your sarcasm only demeens youself, take a chill pill....
The only people permitted into the sterile area are AFP officers!!
NSW Police in uniform or otherwise are NOT permitted into the sterile area / aircraft etc while carrying weapons....
NSW Police in uniform or otherwise are NOT permitted into the sterile area / aircraft etc while carrying weapons....
I accept your apology however as I agree with the point you made by referencing the Commissioner
. Other than Air Security Officers (that's Sky Marshalls or biscuit bandits to us working folk), it is well outside normal protocol and procedure to carry a firearm in those circumstances although Islander Jock raises a very good point. A strict interpretation of S 48 would infact appear to exempt a law enforcement officer from the provisions of the Act, although the intent is to authorise ASO's on duty. My understanding is that even they are authorised by the Secetary to do so, however they may be other things going on.Having a little knowledge of the charters that they use, firearms are never allowed to be carried on a A/C, nor capsicum spray, and their own policies are very clear as to the fact tools of trade must travel in the hold.
Having said that, I'd feel much happier being on an A/C with PC Plod with a unloaded weapon and no ammo, than having the same weapon and ammo travel through the baggage system unaccompanied with a sticker identifying all and sundry to the presence of a weapon, and given it's probably in a small bag, even bag chuckers could probably work out it's not a rifle!
Methinks this bloke (or blokette) has done it unintentionally, however the fallout is the same. Be interesting to see where the cards fall.
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Twice now I have taken my leatherman (with a 4 inch knife blade) through security in Cairns (once at international and once at domestic). Both times in the cruise (once paxing) I was digging around in my nav bag and discovered my mistake (or theirs!?!?). I am waiting for a slow news day to tell the Cairns Post.
If its gonna happen its gonna happen, simple.
If its gonna happen its gonna happen, simple.
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thelummox:
Please don't flatter yourself! I wasn't appologising mate.
From my experience and it is substantial,all firearms are to be considered loaded! So i certainly don't agree with your thoughts on carrying supposed unloaded weapon.
I do agree that allowing Bag Chuckers access is an issue.But lets be honest, Security are Australian Airports is a Joke
Please don't flatter yourself! I wasn't appologising mate.
From my experience and it is substantial,all firearms are to be considered loaded! So i certainly don't agree with your thoughts on carrying supposed unloaded weapon.
I do agree that allowing Bag Chuckers access is an issue.But lets be honest, Security are Australian Airports is a Joke
Did he put the gun on the belt for X ray ? Anything that has been through the machine must be alright as it has been screened.
I remember seeing a police officer in uniform, with side arm clearly visable in its holster, having the hand held metal detector passed all over him. What were they checking for, a nail clippers ?
I remember seeing a police officer in uniform, with side arm clearly visable in its holster, having the hand held metal detector passed all over him. What were they checking for, a nail clippers ?
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Ah, so that's the trick... I'll just get my 8 year old son to carry a firearm and then he can ride with me on the flight deck!
It's all so simple, why didn't I think of that sooner???
It's all so simple, why didn't I think of that sooner???
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Rotaryman, sorry to inform you but State police are allowed airside whilst armed. I don't need to state the act, section and subsection. Screw that. I speak from experience. No.... not because i saw some cop walkin around one day but because until recently I was one of those boys in blue. I was stationed in close proximity to one of our Int airports and on a number of occasions myself have had cause to be airside. Yes... armed as well. The only time I didn't take my firearm airside was while doing a prisoner transfer as I was required to board an aircraft.
Unfortuantely in the police you only really learn the laws and regulations that you yourself may be enforcing. So therefore, unfortunately, most state police have no idea about aviation regulations. This is something the Fed Police stationed at airports know much more about. I, just as much as most newbie cops with big egoes, thought I could carry my firearm anywhere whilst on duty. Low and behold, over time, most of us learn to pull our heads in (sometimes the hardway) and it wasn't long before I learned there where plenty of places I couldn't carry my bullet chucka.
Anyway, boarding aircraft whilst transfering prisoners was one of those places. I dare say that until this incident occured, and was so publicised, there were still plenty of cops out there that didn't know this.
BTW an education officer sits at his desk all day making sure all the probies are doing their assignments for their uni work. They also advise and place other police at the command on weapon and tactics training, investigation courses, driver courses and so forth. So they don't get out much and sure as hell hardly ever put their appointments belt on. Oh and gets paid about the same as a Saab Captain. P'toowi
Which is a hell of a lot more, obviously, than the young guys and girls walking the beat putting up with the 
.
Cheers.
Unfortuantely in the police you only really learn the laws and regulations that you yourself may be enforcing. So therefore, unfortunately, most state police have no idea about aviation regulations. This is something the Fed Police stationed at airports know much more about. I, just as much as most newbie cops with big egoes, thought I could carry my firearm anywhere whilst on duty. Low and behold, over time, most of us learn to pull our heads in (sometimes the hardway) and it wasn't long before I learned there where plenty of places I couldn't carry my bullet chucka.
Anyway, boarding aircraft whilst transfering prisoners was one of those places. I dare say that until this incident occured, and was so publicised, there were still plenty of cops out there that didn't know this.
BTW an education officer sits at his desk all day making sure all the probies are doing their assignments for their uni work. They also advise and place other police at the command on weapon and tactics training, investigation courses, driver courses and so forth. So they don't get out much and sure as hell hardly ever put their appointments belt on. Oh and gets paid about the same as a Saab Captain. P'toowi
Which is a hell of a lot more, obviously, than the young guys and girls walking the beat putting up with the .Cheers.
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Rotaryman
FINE- in order to clarify this, define a sterile area and tell me where this is other than an aircraft. Also the difference between this so called sterile area of the domestic terminal and international terminal. We were readily able to enter into this area at domestic but obviously not the international due to customs where this area is secured by AFP and Protective services.
I feel you are now clutching at straws. Standing under a jet on the RPT apron. Is this not a sterile area also? The way many of our laws and regulations are worded are open to interpretation. You may or may not know that. If you ever sat down to a law exam (CPL maybe) and got less than 100% you should already know this seeing as though you had the CAR's with you in the exam.
Fortunately what is stated and not misread is that firearms are not allowed to be carried on board aircraft. Unfortunately for most these token signs posted around our airports give only the most brief of interpretations of regulations meant to be read and understood by the average punter so that they know they can't pass a particular point without authorisation. These signs don't include the subsections which may in certain circumstances allow other persons within the sterile or airside areas.
I had no intention in making a reply to this post to be dragged into an argument. What some people may call a loophole that allows police into a secure area with a firearm may not be a loophole at all. I'm pretty damn sure if a member of YOUR family was being attacked by some sicko in the "sterile" area you wouldn't be happy that the police attending had to "check" their firearms, spray and batons at the door especially if the crook was armed himself. Understand, this also, if someone rings "000" within the secure area it will be the state police responding first. Protective services and the AFP will probably win the race but the state police will still attend.
FINE- in order to clarify this, define a sterile area and tell me where this is other than an aircraft. Also the difference between this so called sterile area of the domestic terminal and international terminal. We were readily able to enter into this area at domestic but obviously not the international due to customs where this area is secured by AFP and Protective services.
I feel you are now clutching at straws. Standing under a jet on the RPT apron. Is this not a sterile area also? The way many of our laws and regulations are worded are open to interpretation. You may or may not know that. If you ever sat down to a law exam (CPL maybe) and got less than 100% you should already know this seeing as though you had the CAR's with you in the exam.
Fortunately what is stated and not misread is that firearms are not allowed to be carried on board aircraft. Unfortunately for most these token signs posted around our airports give only the most brief of interpretations of regulations meant to be read and understood by the average punter so that they know they can't pass a particular point without authorisation. These signs don't include the subsections which may in certain circumstances allow other persons within the sterile or airside areas.
I had no intention in making a reply to this post to be dragged into an argument. What some people may call a loophole that allows police into a secure area with a firearm may not be a loophole at all. I'm pretty damn sure if a member of YOUR family was being attacked by some sicko in the "sterile" area you wouldn't be happy that the police attending had to "check" their firearms, spray and batons at the door especially if the crook was armed himself. Understand, this also, if someone rings "000" within the secure area it will be the state police responding first. Protective services and the AFP will probably win the race but the state police will still attend.
Last edited by mudpig; 10th Jul 2008 at 03:15.