Pilot Pay and the shame game

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Hi all,

I was going through some old pics and found this one of an advert taken in a terminal of some US airport.



Perhaps something like this would fare well on an Australian terminal wall to explain to passengers why flights are being cancelled.

As for the AE pilots $US18,400 was the starting salary for a first year FO as of Aug 2004 (see here or here). Apparently it's now $US19,776 (Saab 340 FO). Put into the Australian perspective a 7.4% increase in the salary of say a Skippers FO (approx AU$36,500 sans superannuation) is the difference of $2,730 p.a, that's just under two months' rent in a decent Perth house.

Thoughts, comments, concerns or criticism?

FRQ CB

[Captain Sherm]

Mat,

Years ago while flying my beloved 777 into some Asian place or another....I was shopping and bought a T-shirt for my younger daughter. On it were the words "I want it all, I want it now...and I want it on room service"

PM me your address and I'll get one made for you. And anyone else too for that matter. I earned enough to pay for that out of my retirement income by working hard, living with an assortment of bonds, training pay, slow promotion and finally capped that list of trauma by paying....salary sacrifice....for my 777 rating. Hell...I'd have paid to meet Princess Di too. Same joy.

If you do PM me....just to satisfy my curiousity...could you tell me how many years you have spent on union committees? Are you now a member? Were you always? Did you ever accept T&C that someone else's actions bought for you?

And....I had the good fortune once to meet the lady from JQ HR you refer to.....(no it wasn't a job interview) and I would encourage you to edit your post right now to remove that "Sloth" word. It is demeaning and beneath contempt.

[Sonny Hammond]

I hardly think the J* recruitment team need people defending them on this forum.
Go to www.professionalrecruitmentstaffrune.org for that.

Sherm, we all are very sorry for you that you had such a crap career. Boo hoo.
You made your choices, don't complain to us about them.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Up hill both ways

I want it all, I want it now...and I want it on room service

Capt Sherm comparing the complex issue of industrial relations to a silly T-shirt you bought for your daughter does little to contribute to the debate other than to class yourself in the mob of dinosaurs who always complain that the next generation whinge too much or have to "too easy". After all what is the point in making progress if we expect the next generation to have to go back to square one and make the same progress again.

Fair enough if you want to have a go at Mat Finish for insulting a friend with the 'sloth' comment but I don't want to hear about your struggle if it's only to gripe; if you wanted to share your story for the constructive benefit of those of us currently embroiled in the fight then that's another matter.

FRQ CB

[Captain Sherm]

Forgive me....I posted too early in the morning for the caffeine to have kicked in. Far from complaining about my career I was trying through perhaps a little too indelicate sarcasm to simply point out that things like bonds, training pay, salary sacrifice etc are part of life. I had a great career and very few complaints at all. You simply need to take the longer term view thats all. I will always remember a friend who knocked back a chance to have a single digit seniority number at Fedex because it was a "dodgy proposition" and the pay was cr@p.

As for the t-shirt.....get over it. Industrial relation and careers are ALL about emotion and choice. This industry was built on the hard work of those went before. Have you put in your share? Or are you a taker and user?

Still waiting your apology for your unprofessional slagging of someone who was probably just doing her job at Jetstar. Or is that your view of CRM...."live up to my standards or else". Think you're in the wrong career mate. get out now, for all of our sakes. Pasengers deserve better.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

There certainly is no such thing as a free lunch, accordingly I do think that training bonds are the way to go. I draw the line at buying a job especially as most of us couldn't really afford our training in the first place.

Now there's a difference between what is right and what makes good sense (whilst I am entitled to walk across a zebra pedestrian crossing in front of two street racing P-platers I'd probably be better off waiting). The problem comes when a company offers a better salary (when compared to one's present salary) but expects you to front the money for your own endo. Say that you are on $35.5K and are offered right seat on something requiring a $30K endo to be paid up front or come out of your earnings over a year but the salary is $65K. Effectively after one year you've got a free endorsement right? Wrong, you're finally getting a decent professional salary only to have it hijacked. The company should accept their obligation to train staff for what is a particularly expensive specialised position (another $30,000 the move to a similar aeroplane made by another manufacturer) and demand your loyalty with a training bond as collateral.

This system is better all around, the company may have to front some money but it's an investment in their staffing levels for the next two or so years and the pilots can actually earn a living wage. The system of pilots paying for their own jobs is a short-sighted stop-gap measure.

FRQ CB

[Hoofharted]

Capt Sherm, would you kindly mow my lawn, wash my dishes and hang out the laundry and that would be in between washing and polishing my car. When youre done, please leave $10.50 per hour that you have worked as payment for the privilage of working for me.

Just because you have deemed it appropriate to fork out for your career during your life, DOES NOT make it right. Proffessionals throughout Australia are reaping the benefits of the current economic climate on a dailey basis, that is of-course except pilots. While you and your ilk continue to think that indentured labour is still the norm, pilots COS will continue to unwind. "You can fool some of the people all of the time" unfortunately Jetstar and their "spin department" continue to thrive on this truth. So no apology required by MATT.

[Captain Sherm]

I am not in any way an apologist for pilots paying directly for their ratings as distinct from any other way of paying. I have seen and been in airlines that did it all possible ways. Because they do get paid for by someone. In slower promotion, training pay, bonds, freezes on promotion, salary sacrifice. Someone, somewhere pays and you, the pilot, somehow bear that burden whether visible or not. The advantage that LCCs bring....and there are some.....is that they operate fewer types, so the training pipeline is less clogged and promotion is much faster. Yes, some will say the greater efficiencies in training mean that ratings should be "paid for". So be it. Work hard in your union, build the membership and negotiate. I'll buy the champagne when your hard work....thats HARD WORK....succeeds. I will be very happy to do that and wish you well.

[Gundog01]

Captain Sherm

I wise man once said..

"Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt"

[Captain Sherm]

Thanks Gundog,

That is very deep and I'm sure means something I'm just not sure what. Can you let me know?

Now as to type ratings.....in addition to my thoughts on the importance of pilots getting deeply involved in their union....

I did work once for a carrier that was new, and as part of its policy, paid for jet type ratings for its pilots. About 50 guys all up for 7 aircraft. Unfortunately due to embezzlement at the top, millions were missing after a few months and the airline went under. But at the time its directors called it quits, the airline had just started, as projected, to go cash positive. With the next 2 jets coming it would have flourished. But for lack of a million or so, just a couple of weeks spare cash....it died. I have often wondered if we pilots had paid for our ratings, whether that great little airline would have survived. maybe that has coloured my thinking. I'd rather still have that job, on any terms than have had all the things that followed.

[Superbad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMa...eature=related

[Skystar320]

Superbad - that is fake and we all know it anyway........ I am on my last flight leg back to perth from LAX and this is what I found;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bon-q...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe2ncZ1ObIw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jLmM...eature=related

[Skystar320]

And this is a disco dance plane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S39EN...eature=related

[27/09]

I have often wondered if we pilots had paid for our ratings, whether that great little airline would have survived. maybe that has coloured my thinking. I'd rather still have that job, on any terms than have had all the things that followed.

Capt Sherm,

Your arguement is flawed, you seem to have a guilt complex, What if the pilots and the rest of the staff had worked for for free during the startup period, perhaps the company would have survived.

No one wants to experience what you did, BUT to shoulder some of the blame as you seem to be doing for other peoples greed is silly. As I see it all that paying for type rating would have done would be prolong the period that the embezzlement could have carried on before being noticed, the end result being the same.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

This lot www.skybus.com/ were paying A320 captains $65,000 and f.o's $30,000 (U.S) per year and they still went tits up.

[KRUSTY 34]

Probably Why they went tits up!

[greenslopes]

Bonds and endorsement Costs

It no doubt has been said elsewhere, but if we shoulder the burden of cost i.e paying for the training on a piece of equipment with which the company we are employed will make a profit..............then why don't we receive a percentage of this profit in addition to our wage.
Look at the mining industry, lots of their personnel use equally expensive bits of kit yet they were never expected to pay for the training cost yet they in many cases earn greater rates of remuneration than what we presently do.

It may be time to wake up and dispel the ole chestnut..........I paid for my rating so you should to.

Evolve or die...........unfortunatly our T & C's reflect our inability to change.

And yes I am a member of a union which is more concerned with its own business model than with the welfare of its members.

[Lodown]

If a business can't afford to be in business, it doesn't deserve to be in business. Simple! Donate your time and effort on the hope or "promise" that things will get better? Be prepared to get burned.

In a similar vein, despite what the owner thinks, something (pilots' wages) is only worth what someone else is prepared to pay for it and nothing more.

[shadowoneau]

Greenslopes: wrt to the mines, they are in a slightly different senario - those expensive bits of kit don't take that much time to train to operate, whereas aircraft can take 5-6 years from numpty to captain.

Rex seems to take the opinion that they can train their way out of the current prediciment - they can, but they haven't started early enough.

Their salaries reflect that they cannot get enough people in. The employees don't pay for the training because of two reasons:

They need trained people (ie capacity) NOW, not when the employee can afford it.

The employee can say "nup - I can go elsewhere".

[greenslopes]

So shadow if it takes less time to train for the mine op then why can they demand(and get) the same sort of money as Airline pilots and yet not be burdened with the training cost...................I'll let you in on a little secret..................solidarity.

Until we all(yes thats right,each and everyone of us) belongs to an organization that represents the employee in their T & C's and does so with the employees interests at heart(not the organization/unions continued financial wellbeing) we will continue to get new pilots bargaining with the employer for the opportunity of working for them.

It has nothing to do with training costs, it is all about bargaining/negotiating and the balance of power.