QF SO's/ex instructors to be sent back to GA
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QF SO's/ex instructors to be sent back to GA
This month's Flight Ops Newsletter refers to the problem of a scarcity of flight instructors. Apparently Qantas' grand plan to address the pilot shortage is in danger of being derailed before it starts. Put simply, how do you train 300 cadet pilots per year when there are no instructors left to train them?
Rumour has it that appropriately rated Second Officers may be asked to return to instructing, with the difference in pay being made up by QF. This is an interesting scenario: QF mainline pilots training cadets, some of whom will be sent to Jetstar to work for 40% less pay, allowing management to pit them against all QF mainline pilots to screw them on wages and conditions!
In any other industry, if an employer said "please help me train someone to do your job for less pay", what do you think would be the response? So I guess if you're a QF Second Officer and you're asked to go and instruct, you would do well to consider what doing your bit to alleviate the pilot shortage might do to your livelihood.
Don't do it! Or if you are going to do it, make sure they pay you an absolute King's Ransom!
Rumour has it that appropriately rated Second Officers may be asked to return to instructing, with the difference in pay being made up by QF. This is an interesting scenario: QF mainline pilots training cadets, some of whom will be sent to Jetstar to work for 40% less pay, allowing management to pit them against all QF mainline pilots to screw them on wages and conditions!
In any other industry, if an employer said "please help me train someone to do your job for less pay", what do you think would be the response? So I guess if you're a QF Second Officer and you're asked to go and instruct, you would do well to consider what doing your bit to alleviate the pilot shortage might do to your livelihood.
Don't do it! Or if you are going to do it, make sure they pay you an absolute King's Ransom!
Last edited by Ochre Insider; 22nd Dec 2007 at 14:17.
There is nothing new here.
At every level of aviation there are people being asked to train pilots who will earn less than the trainers.
Don't lump the blame just upon the SOs.
At every level of aviation there are people being asked to train pilots who will earn less than the trainers.
Don't lump the blame just upon the SOs.
Rumour has it that appropriately rated Second Officers may be asked to return to instructing, with the difference in pay being made up by QF.
Somehow, I just don't see QANTAS assisting the business of a Bankstown based flight school owning QF Captain who is having enormous difficulty finding and retaining instructors. Maybe some QF pilots might like to volunteer their time and do a bit of work on the side, but for QF to go releasing their SO's is a bit far fetched. That would mean they would need to hire more staff to cover those who are on secondment.
BTW, as a QF A330 FO I am also an appropriately rated and current Grade One FI. I think it would be fantastic to draw a QF salary and work as a FI. It is my dream come true! My family would love it. Yep, no more of that ''sitting-up-at-0330-in-the-dark-stuff' anymore for me! Just pull in the six figures by bashing the circuit with Bloggs 5 days a week
Then occasionally, just to get it out of my system, fly the 'Bus to Honky or Singas once a month and stock up on the Duty Free. Where do I sign?
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OhSpareMe,so your one of the guys that are sick of flying and just want the money or did you ever really like flying?
It's sad when you understand how many people really would love to fly but the spots are taken up by people who just want to be a 'pilot'.
Like the saying goes 'People who can, do and those that can't (or won't) teach.'
It's sad when you understand how many people really would love to fly but the spots are taken up by people who just want to be a 'pilot'.
Like the saying goes 'People who can, do and those that can't (or won't) teach.'
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Its a plan that will most likely happen. Speaking to a fellow who heard it from the CP himself.
Plan is to employ new recruits, give them a start date and therefore seniortiy number with the Rat, send em back to Adeliade to train at the cadet school on quite a nice package.
Also quote "we dont know where we are going to get crew to fly the aircraft on order"
Plan is to employ new recruits, give them a start date and therefore seniortiy number with the Rat, send em back to Adeliade to train at the cadet school on quite a nice package.
Also quote "we dont know where we are going to get crew to fly the aircraft on order"
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I'm with you OhSpareMe.....if QF based me at Bankstown every second bid period (saves doing blanklines on a rotating roster) I reckon that would be bloody fantastic. Home every night, roster stability....ah that would be nice. I am not really sure what you are on about RedTBar.....a guy makes a comment about personal lifestyle choice and you question his intergrity. At the end of the day, isn't that why we work....to achieve the lifestyle we want?? I love flying but given the opportunity to have a better lifestyle (i.e. home more often) I would jump at the opportunity. Remember dude....work to live dont live to work.
Concur with ya Tempo.
Starting with QF and then being seconded to the flight training school on a 'nice package' whilst other recruits slide straight onto the 400? All because I had the 'misfortune' of having an Instructor Rating? Now I reckon that might piss a few people off.
But in case Red-T Bar is a little confused, I should have added that between my first post and this one I went out to the field and bashed around the circuit for 45 mins in a DH82.
Yep, I really hate flying.
Starting with QF and then being seconded to the flight training school on a 'nice package' whilst other recruits slide straight onto the 400? All because I had the 'misfortune' of having an Instructor Rating? Now I reckon that might piss a few people off.
But in case Red-T Bar is a little confused, I should have added that between my first post and this one I went out to the field and bashed around the circuit for 45 mins in a DH82.
Yep, I really hate flying.
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I could not think of anything worse than going back to instructing.....
I really couldn't see QF forcing their instructor rated S/O's back into GA and if they did I would leave and go to JQ or VB....(command in a very short time and home alot more often.....)
I really couldn't see QF forcing their instructor rated S/O's back into GA and if they did I would leave and go to JQ or VB....(command in a very short time and home alot more often.....)
Just jumping in here with my own perspective.
The REX chief of staff recently stated that because of the shortage of instructors, suitably qualified REX pilots may be seconded to the training facility in Mangalore.
Chr!st Almighty!!! The airline is cancelling flights left right and centre due to the losses of what are now irreplaceble crews, and this is what they come up with!
At a recent meeting with the REXPC the Chairman of REX stated that he would rather cut off his arms than pay the pilots more money! Well it appears his managers are more than willing to provide the chainsaw.
Robbing from Peter to pay Paul will not work. Like credt card debt it only feeds on itself, and is a short term solution at best. The only way this entire situation will begin to reverse is to make learning to fly (in the minds of young Australians) a viable career option again. It won't happen overnight, in fact it will probably take years.
QF are in a similar (although much larger) boat as the rest of the industry. It appears however that they are as unwilling to face the reality as the rest.
Buckle up guys. Going to be an interesting ride.
The REX chief of staff recently stated that because of the shortage of instructors, suitably qualified REX pilots may be seconded to the training facility in Mangalore.
Chr!st Almighty!!! The airline is cancelling flights left right and centre due to the losses of what are now irreplaceble crews, and this is what they come up with!
At a recent meeting with the REXPC the Chairman of REX stated that he would rather cut off his arms than pay the pilots more money! Well it appears his managers are more than willing to provide the chainsaw.
Robbing from Peter to pay Paul will not work. Like credt card debt it only feeds on itself, and is a short term solution at best. The only way this entire situation will begin to reverse is to make learning to fly (in the minds of young Australians) a viable career option again. It won't happen overnight, in fact it will probably take years.
QF are in a similar (although much larger) boat as the rest of the industry. It appears however that they are as unwilling to face the reality as the rest.
Buckle up guys. Going to be an interesting ride.
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 22nd Dec 2007 at 22:52.
No one will be forced. I believe it will be on a 'volunteer basis' but still paid by QF. Instructing will be every second bid period.
Its an amazing way this industry turns....
Also, I believe it will be offered to all current SO's that may be interested.
Its an amazing way this industry turns....
Also, I believe it will be offered to all current SO's that may be interested.
Oh Spare Me
CM is not going to pay these new hire S/O's to train J* pilots. Mainline is desperate for pilots and will take every one that sausage factory can graduate. CM is the mainline Chief Pilot and he has no obligations to Jetstar (especially when J* management are refusing to even discuss getting an improved fitout of the B787).
CM is not going to pay these new hire S/O's to train J* pilots. Mainline is desperate for pilots and will take every one that sausage factory can graduate. CM is the mainline Chief Pilot and he has no obligations to Jetstar (especially when J* management are refusing to even discuss getting an improved fitout of the B787).
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Why would anyone who is flying for the airlines want to go back to instructing????????
Didn't alot of us bust our balls to get out of it in the first place!!!!
They would have to offer a large amount of cash (more than usual pay) for most guys to consider it! even then it still would not be enough!!
Also Krusty, how is the cadet program going, i hear they will not even get into a A/C until feb/march next year!! , so much for having them ready to fly the saab by sep 2008!! dickheads!!
Didn't alot of us bust our balls to get out of it in the first place!!!!
They would have to offer a large amount of cash (more than usual pay) for most guys to consider it! even then it still would not be enough!!
Also Krusty, how is the cadet program going, i hear they will not even get into a A/C until feb/march next year!! , so much for having them ready to fly the saab by sep 2008!! dickheads!!
I agree that some may not want to continue working as an instructor, but, at least the airline is trying to do something to help the training schools continue - they are essential to the future of the airlines. If QF does not employ instructors at flying training schools then these instructors will be snapped up by other airlines and as such will be lost to both Qantas and the training schools. This plan is simply an investment in the future for Qantas.
There are a number of pilots in GA who don't want to do the Second Officer role in QF and consequently apply to DJ, JQ, CX etc for First Officer positions. If they are instructors then QF may now be appealing as they can remain instructing (on excellent pay) in their stable domestic environment while their seniority number goes up and then join the airline when a F/O position is coming up. This plan may not suit everyone but I'm sure that there are some who find that it suits their situation.
QF Flight Ops Training have been developing this concept for quite a while now and it's obvious that it is going to cost a lot of money. Management have realised that they have to spend big money to secure enough pilots to fly all the aircraft that they have ordered (knowing this will make the LH EBA quite interesting). Word is, expect an announcement soon that QF will pick up the full cost of pilot training for young school/uni graduates interested in the profession.
There are a number of pilots in GA who don't want to do the Second Officer role in QF and consequently apply to DJ, JQ, CX etc for First Officer positions. If they are instructors then QF may now be appealing as they can remain instructing (on excellent pay) in their stable domestic environment while their seniority number goes up and then join the airline when a F/O position is coming up. This plan may not suit everyone but I'm sure that there are some who find that it suits their situation.
QF Flight Ops Training have been developing this concept for quite a while now and it's obvious that it is going to cost a lot of money. Management have realised that they have to spend big money to secure enough pilots to fly all the aircraft that they have ordered (knowing this will make the LH EBA quite interesting). Word is, expect an announcement soon that QF will pick up the full cost of pilot training for young school/uni graduates interested in the profession.
How is this for an idea.
Include an Instructor Rating as part of the new degree based cadet course.
Have the graduates instruct for two years at the school in lieu of the Industry Placement Program before they join Mainline.
I admit that it wouldn't do much for gene pool diversification, but at least QF would be getting some further value from their cadets rather than helping to prop up a Regional Airline that should be offering positions to GA pilots. It would also provide them with a basis from which to further their instructional technique when, and if, they are appointed (invited) to the Training Section.
Sorry Going Boeing, but I am yet to meet anyone that fits that bill. Not wanting to be an SO in QF for a couple of years? What is wrong with people?
I never said anything about CM helping out Jetstar.
Include an Instructor Rating as part of the new degree based cadet course.
Have the graduates instruct for two years at the school in lieu of the Industry Placement Program before they join Mainline.
I admit that it wouldn't do much for gene pool diversification, but at least QF would be getting some further value from their cadets rather than helping to prop up a Regional Airline that should be offering positions to GA pilots. It would also provide them with a basis from which to further their instructional technique when, and if, they are appointed (invited) to the Training Section.
There are a number of pilots in GA who don't want to do the Second Officer role in QF and consequently apply to DJ, JQ, CX etc for First Officer positions.
I never said anything about CM helping out Jetstar.
Not quite sure what you are trying to say GB?
The fact is that neither Qantas, REX or it appears any other operator is really trying to do anything at all. If they were they would have identified the true cause of this crisis and done something about it long ago. Perhaps they did identify the cause, but are unable to come to grips with the cure.
Eventually something will give. The realisation that all this spin, and evasion of the real issues will ultimately be a waste of time. Careers, (middle management probably) will be sacrificed on the alter of accountability as they scramble for the few remaining suitable drivers out there.
We may then see a massive increase in T&C's. The question remains however, how long before reality bites?
The question of how many QF S/O's take up the offer is of course up to them. I agree with Cantstandya that the offer would have to pretty good. Unless you are a masochist or have some extreme military like sense of duty, well, I think you get the picture.
My prediction.
Not sure how it's all going, but agree with you completely. If they think that any of these guys will be ready by even the end of next year, then they are dream'n. In any case things will come to a head long before they get anywhere near a SAAB!
The fact is that neither Qantas, REX or it appears any other operator is really trying to do anything at all. If they were they would have identified the true cause of this crisis and done something about it long ago. Perhaps they did identify the cause, but are unable to come to grips with the cure.
Eventually something will give. The realisation that all this spin, and evasion of the real issues will ultimately be a waste of time. Careers, (middle management probably) will be sacrificed on the alter of accountability as they scramble for the few remaining suitable drivers out there.
We may then see a massive increase in T&C's. The question remains however, how long before reality bites?
The question of how many QF S/O's take up the offer is of course up to them. I agree with Cantstandya that the offer would have to pretty good. Unless you are a masochist or have some extreme military like sense of duty, well, I think you get the picture.
My prediction.
- The Lunatics running the assylum will continue on their current course and the industry will suffer serious damage as a result.
- Someone will lead the way and begin the long road back to making the career of pilot mean something again.
Not sure how it's all going, but agree with you completely. If they think that any of these guys will be ready by even the end of next year, then they are dream'n. In any case things will come to a head long before they get anywhere near a SAAB!
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 23rd Dec 2007 at 00:37.
KRUSTY 34, I agree that QF has been far too slow in identifying and putting fixes in place re the pilot shortage - SQ and some of the Chinese airlines have been a lot more pro-active. I believe that Dixon's cost cutting policies have driven a lot of this short sightedness.
OhSpareMe
It's an idea that has potential and I'm sure will be looked at in the long term. I wonder how many graduates would opt to be an instructor when the choice is to fly Q300's/Q400's for a couple of years. Similar problem to what others have been saying about instructors wanting to stay at the flying training schools instead of flying around the world as a B744 S/O.
My BAD. Yeah that was in the first post by Ochre Insider - my apologies. GB
OhSpareMe
Include an Instructor Rating as part of the new degree based cadet course. Have the graduates instruct for two years at the school in lieu of the Industry Placement Program before they join Mainline.
I never said anything about CM helping out Jetstar.
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"If they are instructors then QF may now be appealing as they can remain instructing (on excellent pay) in their stable domestic environment while their seniority number goes up and then join the airline when a F/O position is coming up."
Would this cause some problems with the minimum time on company aircraft that QF requires before you are given a slot???
"but at least QF would be getting some further value from their cadets rather than helping to prop up a Regional Airline that should be offering positions to GA pilots."
These regionals are not forced to offer these positions to the cadets. They continue to do so by choice, based on their past experiences with the cadets. An old argument I know, but since when is a regional supposed to offer a position to a GA guy just because he/she is from GA?? They will offer the position to whoever will suit their needs at the time. Face facts, the cadets have performed very well, and in the current climate, they are going to stick around alot longer than a GA driver.
Would this cause some problems with the minimum time on company aircraft that QF requires before you are given a slot???
"but at least QF would be getting some further value from their cadets rather than helping to prop up a Regional Airline that should be offering positions to GA pilots."
These regionals are not forced to offer these positions to the cadets. They continue to do so by choice, based on their past experiences with the cadets. An old argument I know, but since when is a regional supposed to offer a position to a GA guy just because he/she is from GA?? They will offer the position to whoever will suit their needs at the time. Face facts, the cadets have performed very well, and in the current climate, they are going to stick around alot longer than a GA driver.
The Regional is not supposed to offer anyone a job just because they are from GA. All I am saying is that cadets should, after completing their degree/flight training, be employed as the Instructors rather than releasing expensively trained line pilots back to instructing. In fact make them Instructors for two years then slot them into QLink for another couple of years before letting them slide on over to the heavy metal. Don't give them a choice in the matter, just tell them what to do - particularly if, as suggested above, the Rat is going to paying for everything.
Does this mean I can get a refund on my pilot training expenses?
OK Astroboy, I will face the facts and acknowledge that the cadets have/are performing well. Just ask any cadet.
I am happy for QF to hire as many cadets as they can. We need as many warm bodies with pilot licences that we can get our hands on. Jetstar, et al can look after themselves.
Does this mean I can get a refund on my pilot training expenses?
OK Astroboy, I will face the facts and acknowledge that the cadets have/are performing well. Just ask any cadet.
I am happy for QF to hire as many cadets as they can. We need as many warm bodies with pilot licences that we can get our hands on. Jetstar, et al can look after themselves.
Nunc est bibendum
The prospect of sending S/Os (and possibly junior F/Os) to the aligned flying schools has been mooted since the expanded cadet scheme was being floated about 18 months to two years ago. I've said previously that for a QF branded cadetship to work it needed to be significantly more than just hanging the QF sign on the front door and that QF personnel needed to play an active part in the management of the program if it were to really deliver.
I've got to say that I quite like the idea of offering experienced S/Os the opportunity of instructing. My preference is that they do at least one year on line before heading back instructing as it would give them a better understanding of the operation that they are training the cadets for as well as significantly more 'cred' with the students of at least having 'been there and done that'- albeit from the back seat.
I'm also dead set against the current regime of getting your CPL and then becoming an instructor so that you can get the experience to then go and get a 'real' job. In no other industry that I can think of do you learn the job, then instruct the job so that you've got the experience to go out and get the 'real' job. In most other professional industries the trainers are all experienced at the real job who then go 'back' to train the younglings. In this respect the concept of having cadets get their CPL then instructors rating and then instructing other cadets for a couple of years prior to heading off to the airline is flawed in the extreme. Much better to have them do a couple of years on a Dash or in the back seat of a B744/A330 before making them go back and instruct. At least that way there is a greater degree of context to what they're instructing. Will it 'cost' QF? You betcha but I reckon then they're far more likely to be able to charge other airlines a premium for the product and at the end of the day this cadet course is designed to either minimise QF's cost and/or drag revenue in from outside the organisation.
I've got to say that I quite like the idea of offering experienced S/Os the opportunity of instructing. My preference is that they do at least one year on line before heading back instructing as it would give them a better understanding of the operation that they are training the cadets for as well as significantly more 'cred' with the students of at least having 'been there and done that'- albeit from the back seat.
I'm also dead set against the current regime of getting your CPL and then becoming an instructor so that you can get the experience to then go and get a 'real' job. In no other industry that I can think of do you learn the job, then instruct the job so that you've got the experience to go out and get the 'real' job. In most other professional industries the trainers are all experienced at the real job who then go 'back' to train the younglings. In this respect the concept of having cadets get their CPL then instructors rating and then instructing other cadets for a couple of years prior to heading off to the airline is flawed in the extreme. Much better to have them do a couple of years on a Dash or in the back seat of a B744/A330 before making them go back and instruct. At least that way there is a greater degree of context to what they're instructing. Will it 'cost' QF? You betcha but I reckon then they're far more likely to be able to charge other airlines a premium for the product and at the end of the day this cadet course is designed to either minimise QF's cost and/or drag revenue in from outside the organisation.