QF SO's/ex instructors to be sent back to GA
Ooops. My bad! Thanks for the explanation.
Grandpa Aerotart
Going Boeing the thread starter suggested
Further Keg stated.
It did not suggest employing Instructors at SO rates of pay and then locking them out of QF for life.
Rumour has it that appropriately rated Second Officers may be asked to return to instructing, with the difference in pay being made up by QF.
The prospect of sending S/Os (and possibly junior F/Os) to the aligned flying schools has been mooted since the expanded cadet scheme was being floated about 18 months to two years ago
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Qantas braces for pilot shortage.
Instructor shortage proceeds general pilot shortage due airlines recruiting said instructors.
At present still ample applications for cadet training (no shortage of potential pilots)
Qantas reacts by implementing what informally happened when cadets of early 1990's had delayed entry to mainline operations & instructed in same training organisation. No problems with standards then, so nil anticipated now.
On graduation, Cadets Industry Placement Program allocates pilots where resources best utilised. ie: Instructing (qualifications provided) or QF Link etc. Or direct entry with no industry placement dependant upon demand. Individual has no choice in placement.
Instructor shortage proceeds general pilot shortage due airlines recruiting said instructors.
At present still ample applications for cadet training (no shortage of potential pilots)
Qantas reacts by implementing what informally happened when cadets of early 1990's had delayed entry to mainline operations & instructed in same training organisation. No problems with standards then, so nil anticipated now.
On graduation, Cadets Industry Placement Program allocates pilots where resources best utilised. ie: Instructing (qualifications provided) or QF Link etc. Or direct entry with no industry placement dependant upon demand. Individual has no choice in placement.
CC, I'd hoped with my previous posts that I'd corrected the different views that others posted (ie what you quoted). My source is very high in Qantas Training and my understanding of what he said is that the aim is to stop the loss of experienced instructors from flying training schools. The aim is not to leave them there forever but, by having a planned transition, replacement instructors can be trained up. This has to be a long term plan to allow a continuous stream of instructors who have QF seniority and pay whilst instructing and then after 2-3 years they join QF mainline. It will involve an intricate and continuous process of upgrading and rating instructors, but it is needed otherwise all the airlines that are recruiting will take so many of these instructors that the schools may become unviable - which obviously is not in the airlines interests. This may not be a perfect solution, but if anyone can think of a better one please post it.
Nunc est bibendum
It should also be noted that I'm not talking about substantial numbers either. Just enough to ensure that QF's desired outcomes are protected. The original discussions that I'm aware of had less than a handful of S/Os involved in the process. We may still see that many. You won't be seeing every instructor at a particular flying school as (former) S/Os. You may see 1:10 or so.
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GB, thanks for the clarification. You and Keg still differ slightly on the proposal which is to be expected considering the subject still seems to be in the discussion phase.
Bear in mind, it's been a while since I've visited a flight school. First, the cost to return SO's to GA will cost a bomb, if that is indeed the proposal. It means QF has to employ two people to send one back to GA. Second, the QF selection process is designed to employ good airline pilots, not good instructors. They are two different beasts, despite the opinions of ex-grade 2's and 3's turned airline pilots.
GB, your take on the proposal assumes good instructors want to progress to airline flying. In my limitied experience, reimburse good instructors well, show them a profitable career path (not necessarily into the airlines) and they'll become better instructors. Furlough the careers of airline pilots for two or three years instructing and they'll just do their job, bide their time and will ultimately be a disappointment.
IMHO, treat good instructors like any other professional, skilled employees in businesses outside aviation and you'll KEEP those good instructors.
a) Six figure salary.
b) Full moving and relocation costs.
c) Outstanding training facility.
d) Two consecutive days off every week.
e) Well maintained aircraft.
f) Subsidised uniform and equipment (eg. a good NR headset)
g) Regular instructor improvement training and skills enhancement.
h) Annual, performance-based bonus.
i) Regular, posted work hours.
j) Office and book-keeping support.
And if it's a Qantas-sponsored position, add in an extra carrot like an annual travel bonus.
Aviation as a career has taken a beating in the last 20 years. The outstanding instructors that I remember in my youth were in or beyond their mid-30's with a broad experience base. I guess we've lost those types of people over the last couple of decades. If you want good instructors, you have to get those types of characters back. It was the general categorisation that all instructors just wanted to get into the airlines that made the really good ones leave in the first place. Too old for the airlines and no viable future to encourage them to stay. Change your opinion that instructing can be a career on its own and you might have a return of the outstanding instructor.
Bear in mind, it's been a while since I've visited a flight school. First, the cost to return SO's to GA will cost a bomb, if that is indeed the proposal. It means QF has to employ two people to send one back to GA. Second, the QF selection process is designed to employ good airline pilots, not good instructors. They are two different beasts, despite the opinions of ex-grade 2's and 3's turned airline pilots.
GB, your take on the proposal assumes good instructors want to progress to airline flying. In my limitied experience, reimburse good instructors well, show them a profitable career path (not necessarily into the airlines) and they'll become better instructors. Furlough the careers of airline pilots for two or three years instructing and they'll just do their job, bide their time and will ultimately be a disappointment.
IMHO, treat good instructors like any other professional, skilled employees in businesses outside aviation and you'll KEEP those good instructors.
a) Six figure salary.
b) Full moving and relocation costs.
c) Outstanding training facility.
d) Two consecutive days off every week.
e) Well maintained aircraft.
f) Subsidised uniform and equipment (eg. a good NR headset)
g) Regular instructor improvement training and skills enhancement.
h) Annual, performance-based bonus.
i) Regular, posted work hours.
j) Office and book-keeping support.
And if it's a Qantas-sponsored position, add in an extra carrot like an annual travel bonus.
Aviation as a career has taken a beating in the last 20 years. The outstanding instructors that I remember in my youth were in or beyond their mid-30's with a broad experience base. I guess we've lost those types of people over the last couple of decades. If you want good instructors, you have to get those types of characters back. It was the general categorisation that all instructors just wanted to get into the airlines that made the really good ones leave in the first place. Too old for the airlines and no viable future to encourage them to stay. Change your opinion that instructing can be a career on its own and you might have a return of the outstanding instructor.
Last edited by Lodown; 27th Dec 2007 at 13:47.
poto
Are you for real? At least the Capt and FO get to take off and land!
Are you for real? At least the Capt and FO get to take off and land!
Not doing them for a couple of years (which is about as long as one could expect to be an S/O atm), is enough to outweigh some from going to QF. Big picture to me says otherwise though
Oh Spare me....
Given that a current endorsement ONLY on a jet is upwards of 30 000, I think it would be safe to say that 300 odd hours in a sim is going to be more expensive than 180 odd hours in conventional aircraft.
Not sure what difference it makes if its solo or dual, 10 hours is still only 10 hours.
Given that a current endorsement ONLY on a jet is upwards of 30 000, I think it would be safe to say that 300 odd hours in a sim is going to be more expensive than 180 odd hours in conventional aircraft.
Not sure what difference it makes if its solo or dual, 10 hours is still only 10 hours.
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FSO out today looking for volunteers to attend a workshop on 20 Feb for those interested in providing input into the terms of arrangement.
Interest is sought from 744 and 330 S/Os with Grade 1 for instructing of cadets in ADL and MEL.
Interest is sought from 744 and 330 S/Os with Grade 1 for instructing of cadets in ADL and MEL.
Thread Starter
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As has been stated elsewhere on this thread, the pilot shortage is the only point in our favour in any pay negotiations.
IMHO, any pilot who assists the company train more pilots is effectively helping the company fight against our current position of strength.
Why any pilot would consider going down this path is beyond me
.
We should be going out of our way to ensure that the pilot shortage continues for as long as possible, creating more competition for recruits, such that significant pay rises become the norm across the wider industry.
If you're a Qantas pilot and considering the instructing option, please consider the wider implications.
Don't do it!!!
IMHO, any pilot who assists the company train more pilots is effectively helping the company fight against our current position of strength.
Why any pilot would consider going down this path is beyond me
.We should be going out of our way to ensure that the pilot shortage continues for as long as possible, creating more competition for recruits, such that significant pay rises become the norm across the wider industry.
If you're a Qantas pilot and considering the instructing option, please consider the wider implications.
Don't do it!!!
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Lodown
Yes, you have hit the nail on the head. When they start taking GA seriously, they can expect a serious return from it.
The obscene lottery that has been happening for too many years has done serious damage to all of aviation, including the major airlines.
There is a need for some stability, and airlines have to make some kind of long term commitment in order to get senior instructors and serious trainees to see some integrity in the training system. Those that do will get the new pilots they want. For too long flying training has appeared to be one huge confidence trick. And with some F/O's employed on a part time basis, who would bother?
The obscene lottery that has been happening for too many years has done serious damage to all of aviation, including the major airlines.
There is a need for some stability, and airlines have to make some kind of long term commitment in order to get senior instructors and serious trainees to see some integrity in the training system. Those that do will get the new pilots they want. For too long flying training has appeared to be one huge confidence trick. And with some F/O's employed on a part time basis, who would bother?
Nunc est bibendum
Easy Tiger. You were the one that threw out the line about the blind leading the blind. The guy I know of can fly circles around me (no comments from the peanut gallery about that not being a difficult thing! 
) and has a lot of experience at turning out very good CPL candidates who themselves have gone on to very successful aviation careers.
Cost to register profile for Gondwalla: five minutes
Time to rack up 12 posts: 22 days.
Showing yourself to be a goat at the same time you label PPRUNE full of them: Priceless!
) and has a lot of experience at turning out very good CPL candidates who themselves have gone on to very successful aviation careers.Cost to register profile for Gondwalla: five minutes
Time to rack up 12 posts: 22 days.
Showing yourself to be a goat at the same time you label PPRUNE full of them: Priceless!
Perhaps someone with some insight should clarify whether it is going to be hiring SOs but sending them to instruct, or interviewing instructors for SO jobs, giving them seniority numbers/salary etc, but leaving them at the school for X time.
Arrr
Arrr
Last edited by Cap'n Arrr; 26th Jan 2008 at 12:11.
Seasonally Adjusted
Well said Keg.
Might be time to up your medication.
Sounds like a goat to me but then again this industry and web site for that matter is full of them!
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Some points to consider for anyone contemplating doing the instructing for QF.
Loss of Allowances, this needs to be addressed in the package. Consider that the average amount paid in allowances to a 744 Second Officer is around $20,000 dollars per year, of which very little tax is paid on this.
Safety, who in their right mind would go back to instructing in single engine aircraft or light twins after progressing to heavy jets. I've had quite a few years instructing and in that that time I have had a few close mid-airs, always in the GAAP training area, and come very close to burying a light twin due to students stuff ups doing assy training.
Once out of instructing you never want to go back.
Loss of Allowances, this needs to be addressed in the package. Consider that the average amount paid in allowances to a 744 Second Officer is around $20,000 dollars per year, of which very little tax is paid on this.
Safety, who in their right mind would go back to instructing in single engine aircraft or light twins after progressing to heavy jets. I've had quite a few years instructing and in that that time I have had a few close mid-airs, always in the GAAP training area, and come very close to burying a light twin due to students stuff ups doing assy training.
Once out of instructing you never want to go back.