Aviation Icon Col Pay Lost in Crash (Merged)
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Everyone else had said all that i wanted to. So i'll just say it was an absolute honour sharing the circuit with you at Temora a few weeks ago.
Australian aviation owes you plenty and is poorer for your passing.
Australian aviation owes you plenty and is poorer for your passing.
I'm behind the times, But?
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From Temora Aviation Museum
Col Pay was a true gentleman. You don't survive to 75 years as an ag pilot if you are a cowboy. He will be sadly missed.
From: Temora Aviation Museum
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:56 PM
Subject: VALE COL PAY
Col Pay was born on 26 October 1932 and from an early age he developed an interest in flying and all things mechanical. He learned to fly at Narromine in western NSW using all he could afford from his wages to satisfy the passion that continued throughout his life. After gaining his licence he flew a variety of aircraft and later became an instructor at the Narromine Aero Club. His first aircraft was a De Havilland Tiger Moth and with this he established Pays Aerial Service which later became one of the largest and most successful aerial work companies in Australia.
Col was one of Australia’s pioneers of aerial topdressing, spraying and crop dusting and helped to develop many of the techniques now common practice in the industry. From his base in Scone, NSW the business expanded to include operations outside Australia and further diversified to include aerial fire fighting and aircraft sales.
Col’s passion for aviation led him into the realm of “warbird” operations before that term had even been coined. In partnership he owned an Australian built Mustang fighter that was kept at Narromine and later reluctantly sold to buy a washing machine. Today such a thought would not be contemplated, but in the 1950s and 1960s the warbird movement did not exist and few such aircraft were permitted to fly. Col again renewed his acquaintance with the Mustang when he purchased and restored the pillar box red VH-AUB at his Scone maintenance facility. With this aircraft repainted in its former RAAF markings Col became a regular performer at air shows throughout NSW.
Col expanded his interest in warbird aircraft with the purchase of a Spitfire Mk.VIII from the estate of the late Sid Marshall. This aircraft required a complete rebuild and many overseas commentators believed that the task could not be performed in this country. The aircraft’s first flight was the crowning achievement of the warbird movement in Australia up until that date, and its operation by Col between 1985 and 2000 brought this legend to thousands of enthusiasts and veterans alike. Col maintained his association with the Spitfire following its sale to the Temora Aviation Museum and flew it at Temora whenever the opportunity arose. Other wartime fighters and trainers became part of his collection including Australia’s first airworthy P-40 Kittyhawk which again emerged from his workshops as one of the best examples of its type anywhere in the world. At the time of the P-40’s first flight, Col’s collection boasted an example of each of the most significant fighter aircraft operated by the RAAF during the Second World War. Through Col’s efforts, Scone became a Mecca for aircraft enthusiasts and this was enhanced through the bi-annual “Warbirds over Scone” air shows that brought spectators from every state and overseas.
In addition to the aerial work operations, Col’s business expanded to include the acquisition and sale of a variety of ex-military aircraft. This greatly diversified the range of types flying in Australia and saved most from potential scrapping. With others he retrieved North American T-28s from Laos, Cessna O-1 Birdogs from Thailand and Vietnam and Cessna A-37 Dragonflys from Vietnam. Other types were also obtained from as far afield as Italy. It can truly be said that the nature and range of the Australian warbird movement as we see it today is due in no small part to the efforts of Col Pay.
Col was an astute businessman, hard bargainer and was both well liked and respected throughout the Australian aviation industry. He was a highly skilled and experienced pilot in a wide variety of aircraft types from the Wright Flyer replica to jets. He was a regular performer at Temora’s flying weekends bringing his Mustang or recently restored P-40, thrilling the crowds with his professional displays.
Col is survived by his wife Dianne, son Ross and daughters Jillian and Helen.
He shall be greatly missed by everyone at Temora and across the Australian aviation industry.
We have prepared a special tribute page on our website to remember Col Pay. Click on this link to view it. http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/news/ColPay_000.cfm
http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/
From: Temora Aviation Museum
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:56 PM
Subject: VALE COL PAY
Col Pay was born on 26 October 1932 and from an early age he developed an interest in flying and all things mechanical. He learned to fly at Narromine in western NSW using all he could afford from his wages to satisfy the passion that continued throughout his life. After gaining his licence he flew a variety of aircraft and later became an instructor at the Narromine Aero Club. His first aircraft was a De Havilland Tiger Moth and with this he established Pays Aerial Service which later became one of the largest and most successful aerial work companies in Australia.
Col was one of Australia’s pioneers of aerial topdressing, spraying and crop dusting and helped to develop many of the techniques now common practice in the industry. From his base in Scone, NSW the business expanded to include operations outside Australia and further diversified to include aerial fire fighting and aircraft sales.
Col’s passion for aviation led him into the realm of “warbird” operations before that term had even been coined. In partnership he owned an Australian built Mustang fighter that was kept at Narromine and later reluctantly sold to buy a washing machine. Today such a thought would not be contemplated, but in the 1950s and 1960s the warbird movement did not exist and few such aircraft were permitted to fly. Col again renewed his acquaintance with the Mustang when he purchased and restored the pillar box red VH-AUB at his Scone maintenance facility. With this aircraft repainted in its former RAAF markings Col became a regular performer at air shows throughout NSW.
Col expanded his interest in warbird aircraft with the purchase of a Spitfire Mk.VIII from the estate of the late Sid Marshall. This aircraft required a complete rebuild and many overseas commentators believed that the task could not be performed in this country. The aircraft’s first flight was the crowning achievement of the warbird movement in Australia up until that date, and its operation by Col between 1985 and 2000 brought this legend to thousands of enthusiasts and veterans alike. Col maintained his association with the Spitfire following its sale to the Temora Aviation Museum and flew it at Temora whenever the opportunity arose. Other wartime fighters and trainers became part of his collection including Australia’s first airworthy P-40 Kittyhawk which again emerged from his workshops as one of the best examples of its type anywhere in the world. At the time of the P-40’s first flight, Col’s collection boasted an example of each of the most significant fighter aircraft operated by the RAAF during the Second World War. Through Col’s efforts, Scone became a Mecca for aircraft enthusiasts and this was enhanced through the bi-annual “Warbirds over Scone” air shows that brought spectators from every state and overseas.
In addition to the aerial work operations, Col’s business expanded to include the acquisition and sale of a variety of ex-military aircraft. This greatly diversified the range of types flying in Australia and saved most from potential scrapping. With others he retrieved North American T-28s from Laos, Cessna O-1 Birdogs from Thailand and Vietnam and Cessna A-37 Dragonflys from Vietnam. Other types were also obtained from as far afield as Italy. It can truly be said that the nature and range of the Australian warbird movement as we see it today is due in no small part to the efforts of Col Pay.
Col was an astute businessman, hard bargainer and was both well liked and respected throughout the Australian aviation industry. He was a highly skilled and experienced pilot in a wide variety of aircraft types from the Wright Flyer replica to jets. He was a regular performer at Temora’s flying weekends bringing his Mustang or recently restored P-40, thrilling the crowds with his professional displays.
Col is survived by his wife Dianne, son Ross and daughters Jillian and Helen.
He shall be greatly missed by everyone at Temora and across the Australian aviation industry.
We have prepared a special tribute page on our website to remember Col Pay. Click on this link to view it. http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/news/ColPay_000.cfm
http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/
Thread Starter
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A huge day spent catching up with peers and basking in the limelight of a few legends.
Photos to follow.
Said it before and today it draws a tear - Col I owed you everything. Thank you.
Photos to follow.
Said it before and today it draws a tear - Col I owed you everything. Thank you.
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I am afraid there are a one or two ag pilots who would be alive today had they been wearing a helmet when they pranged, over the years.
One guy informed me years ago, on my enquiry as to why he was not wearing a helmet, was he didn't relish the thought of being trapped in a burning a/c by his legs and being conscious. Guess he had a point.
I read the report with interest.
As for the front of the ski on the ill fated a/c. I am no fluid mechanic but my first thought was the turned up bit of the toes of the skis should have been somewhat longer, to help guard against what did eventually happen, with tragic results.
R.I.P. Sir.
One guy informed me years ago, on my enquiry as to why he was not wearing a helmet, was he didn't relish the thought of being trapped in a burning a/c by his legs and being conscious. Guess he had a point.
I read the report with interest.
As for the front of the ski on the ill fated a/c. I am no fluid mechanic but my first thought was the turned up bit of the toes of the skis should have been somewhat longer, to help guard against what did eventually happen, with tragic results.
R.I.P. Sir.
Grandpa Aerotart
Really saddens me to think some one dies, possible, for lack of the one bit of kit I would have thought mandatory for that style of flying, testing something so unusual let alone day to day ag flying, and it apparently was a certification requirement of the aircraft (helmut to be worn). if I read the report correctly.
Still it seems as I have watched, marveled is a better word, Col at airshows most of my life and he never wore a helmut...just his characteristic DCs and white overalls...I always wondered about that.
I have looked at the Fire Boss version of that aircraft a few times and thought "What a SEXY bit of kit". It just looks SO GOOD with the floats. Did they cut down so much on useful load that it was worth the risk associated with these flights, or a good mans life?
Why wouldn't you just buy a pair of floats for each firebomber and store them, made up, in a shed...surely it would be less than a days work to change each aircraft over from wheels to floats when needed for the fire season?
This just doesn't seem in character.
http://www.airtractor.com/at-802f-fi...st-us-contract
Still it seems as I have watched, marveled is a better word, Col at airshows most of my life and he never wore a helmut...just his characteristic DCs and white overalls...I always wondered about that.
I have looked at the Fire Boss version of that aircraft a few times and thought "What a SEXY bit of kit". It just looks SO GOOD with the floats. Did they cut down so much on useful load that it was worth the risk associated with these flights, or a good mans life?
Why wouldn't you just buy a pair of floats for each firebomber and store them, made up, in a shed...surely it would be less than a days work to change each aircraft over from wheels to floats when needed for the fire season?
This just doesn't seem in character.
http://www.airtractor.com/at-802f-fi...st-us-contract
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 20th Feb 2008 at 08:45.
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Col at the time of his demise (may he always be remembered)obviously thought it not a major issue to wear protective head gear. He was his own man, & like the rest of us we are all ultimetly responsible for our own actions.
Nothing is forever, Col's memories, his legacies & never to foget his brilliant way of making ordinary folk not directly connected with aviation feel as tho there was time in Col's life for simply, you & me !
CW
Nothing is forever, Col's memories, his legacies & never to foget his brilliant way of making ordinary folk not directly connected with aviation feel as tho there was time in Col's life for simply, you & me !
CW
Whilst some here are harping on about helmets, I not aware that the actual cause of death has been made public. An it's none of our business really.
It's possible that a helmet, or lack thereof, had no bearing on the final tragic result?
As an aside, a particular pilot in PNG took to wearing his helmet whilst flying the Twin Otter, much to the shock/horror of the passengers. Sad to say his helmet failed to save him during a subsequent accident.
Horses for Courses!
It's possible that a helmet, or lack thereof, had no bearing on the final tragic result?
As an aside, a particular pilot in PNG took to wearing his helmet whilst flying the Twin Otter, much to the shock/horror of the passengers. Sad to say his helmet failed to save him during a subsequent accident.
Horses for Courses!
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So what, he didn't wear a helmet.
This is flying-not cycling.
High G impact, lots of water, temporary unconciousness from shock, all that mud, any of these could kill you, no matter if you've got a helmet or a bloody scuba suit on.
Dale Earnhart Snr had a helmet on and still broke his neck- but that was ok, his head was saved.
Fact- Do something dangerous for long enough and eventually the danger will catch you, your fault or not.
The tragedy is that he is gone and the industry has lost a leader.
This is flying-not cycling.
High G impact, lots of water, temporary unconciousness from shock, all that mud, any of these could kill you, no matter if you've got a helmet or a bloody scuba suit on.
Dale Earnhart Snr had a helmet on and still broke his neck- but that was ok, his head was saved.
Fact- Do something dangerous for long enough and eventually the danger will catch you, your fault or not.
The tragedy is that he is gone and the industry has lost a leader.
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p.s
Just because CASA says so doesn't automatically make it correct.
After all, CASA issued Monarch and Seaview's AOC.
The CASA people making these rules mostly have less experience and common sense than the people doing it.
Whats that skip? I'm rambling???
Just because CASA says so doesn't automatically make it correct.
After all, CASA issued Monarch and Seaview's AOC.
The CASA people making these rules mostly have less experience and common sense than the people doing it.
Whats that skip? I'm rambling???
Grandpa Aerotart
Pretty poor analogy there Sonny
There was a bit of technology available, and I can't think of what it is called but it stops your head snapping forward...same way you die when hanged, that would have saved Earnhart's life but he point blank refused to wear it...now that piece of technology is mandatory in racing and it took Earnhart's death to make it so...classic tombstone thinking.
To not wear a helmut while conducting the kinds of flights Col was conducting is, to my mind, bizarre.
A helmut might not make the difference EVERY TIME, but it might have this time.
A great pilot and seriously nice guy...but not infallible.
There was a bit of technology available, and I can't think of what it is called but it stops your head snapping forward...same way you die when hanged, that would have saved Earnhart's life but he point blank refused to wear it...now that piece of technology is mandatory in racing and it took Earnhart's death to make it so...classic tombstone thinking.
To not wear a helmut while conducting the kinds of flights Col was conducting is, to my mind, bizarre.
Not a mark on him - except a wound on the RHS of his head.
A great pilot and seriously nice guy...but not infallible.
The ATSB report stated (or under stated), from memory, that Col had 29,800 hours experience.
They obviously did not find all the Log Books!!
Col would find that amusing!
They obviously did not find all the Log Books!!
Col would find that amusing!
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Col was an inovator
He was responsible for re-engining the Fletcher ag plane with the eight cylinder 400 HP Lycoming. I remember hiring a 400HP Fletcher from him for geophysical survey many years ago. It was to operate in the outback, and so was fitted with a DC3 fuel tank where the hopper usually goes, and pax seats and geophysical electronics behind that.
Up front it had radio and nav gear that no self respecting ag plane ever had.
There was a delay in getting some of the paperwork done, and I had things to do in Adelaide, so Col lent me a Cessna 180 to go to Adelaide. In those days we had to get endorsements on every aeroplane before we could fly it, so Col and I did some circuits. Not many circuits, as a C180 does not need a big long runway, so we did three touch and goes for every circuit. Very practical.
I remember Col as a hard working aviator/engineer/businessman who did lots of difficult things well.
I have enormous respect for this man.
Up front it had radio and nav gear that no self respecting ag plane ever had.
There was a delay in getting some of the paperwork done, and I had things to do in Adelaide, so Col lent me a Cessna 180 to go to Adelaide. In those days we had to get endorsements on every aeroplane before we could fly it, so Col and I did some circuits. Not many circuits, as a C180 does not need a big long runway, so we did three touch and goes for every circuit. Very practical.
I remember Col as a hard working aviator/engineer/businessman who did lots of difficult things well.
I have enormous respect for this man.
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Chimbu,
Its called a HANS device, and they weren't very popular with any drivers until they were made mandatory. Rumour has it Dale Earnhardt liked to wear his seatbelt loose as well..
Its called a HANS device, and they weren't very popular with any drivers until they were made mandatory. Rumour has it Dale Earnhardt liked to wear his seatbelt loose as well..
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OK, I concede that one.
I am no expert on ag type flying, so maybe i'm approaching this from the wrong angle, but my thoughts are these guys are who they are and achieve the things they achieve because they think for themselves, outside the box and for their own reasons.
A quality lacking in todays highly regulated aviation industry, where everything is based on what the lawyers and beancounters think.
I'm not saying we go back to the old days but we do need to respect it for what it was.
I am no expert on ag type flying, so maybe i'm approaching this from the wrong angle, but my thoughts are these guys are who they are and achieve the things they achieve because they think for themselves, outside the box and for their own reasons.
A quality lacking in todays highly regulated aviation industry, where everything is based on what the lawyers and beancounters think.
I'm not saying we go back to the old days but we do need to respect it for what it was.
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I too have admired the Fire Boss and would love to fly one - that sort of work would be extremely challenging and satisfying. Whilst I'm not an ag pilot I have spent the last two years flying floats - and with absolutely no disrepect intended I will comment on the accident.
The deepest part of an aircraft's floats are located behind the center of gravity of a float plane in a landing attitude. One reason for this is for directional stability whilst on the water. If you land a floatplane with the center of hydrodynamic resistance in front of the centerer of gravity and there is any sideways drift relative to the water the aircraft will yaw/slew extremely violently - this can be seen dramatically in the 1982 film "Mother Lode" (the accident was not scripted), and was also demonstrated a few years ago when a float plane collided with a yacht in Chance Bay in Queensland following a low nose landing where the pilot subsequently lost directional control.
Given the configuration shown in the ATSB report with the skis so far forward it would only require one leg to 'grab' and the result is not at all surprising. A slight turn, a light crosswind or even water conditions may have been enough to start the sequence. If this happens on floats you have a chance of staying upright - with small skis you would become a passenger along for an extremely violent ride.
W
PS Water scooping floats for firefighting are not new - they were a factory option on De Havilland Canada Beavers in the 1950's.
PPS Amphib floats are expensive. The Wipline 10000s as fitted to the Fire Boss are smaller version of the 13000's - a set of 13000 amphibs including fittings costs around $426k US. In Australia it would be extremely difficult to get a return on them.
RIP Col
The deepest part of an aircraft's floats are located behind the center of gravity of a float plane in a landing attitude. One reason for this is for directional stability whilst on the water. If you land a floatplane with the center of hydrodynamic resistance in front of the centerer of gravity and there is any sideways drift relative to the water the aircraft will yaw/slew extremely violently - this can be seen dramatically in the 1982 film "Mother Lode" (the accident was not scripted), and was also demonstrated a few years ago when a float plane collided with a yacht in Chance Bay in Queensland following a low nose landing where the pilot subsequently lost directional control.
Given the configuration shown in the ATSB report with the skis so far forward it would only require one leg to 'grab' and the result is not at all surprising. A slight turn, a light crosswind or even water conditions may have been enough to start the sequence. If this happens on floats you have a chance of staying upright - with small skis you would become a passenger along for an extremely violent ride.
W
PS Water scooping floats for firefighting are not new - they were a factory option on De Havilland Canada Beavers in the 1950's.
PPS Amphib floats are expensive. The Wipline 10000s as fitted to the Fire Boss are smaller version of the 13000's - a set of 13000 amphibs including fittings costs around $426k US. In Australia it would be extremely difficult to get a return on them.
RIP Col
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Chimbu
Mate,
the link to firebossllc.com doesnt seem to be working.. but if you check out wipaire.com who make the stuff you will see the 8000 series for the C208 is in the mid 200K mark and the 13000 series for the twotter runs to mid 400K.. considering the 10000 series is a special cut down version of the twotter setup with the extra plumbing etc etc I strongly suspect 426K would be about right eh..
the link to firebossllc.com doesnt seem to be working.. but if you check out wipaire.com who make the stuff you will see the 8000 series for the C208 is in the mid 200K mark and the 13000 series for the twotter runs to mid 400K.. considering the 10000 series is a special cut down version of the twotter setup with the extra plumbing etc etc I strongly suspect 426K would be about right eh..