Pilot sick on QF flight
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Pilot sick on QF flight
He had to get out of his seat to get his red pen from his overnight bag. Red pens are required to be carried by all FOs in Australian Operations to put a line through the captain's name on the seniority list (CAR 315 (3)a refers) when he falls ill.
Check out post #17 here by Soggyblonde.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ar#post3693838
Was she CC on this flight?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ar#post3693838
Was she CC on this flight?
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...but remember G-AWNO
Thread Baron, yes, that is how its supposed to work and we should celebrate that. But remember the really sad case where, on a 747 classic - about 1989 - where the f/o got food poisoning (I think the sector was BAH-LHR) and was made to rest 'out back'.
Although he returned to the flight deck, the PIC workload, tiredness, weather conditions (Cat 3 limits) , and an accompanying autoland failure/conflict meant that he failed to notice until very late in the approach that the autoland system had allowed the aircraft to drift off the centreline, whereupon he executed a go-around. In the G/A the aircraft missed the Heathrow Penta hotel (by about 12 feet reportedly).
The oldies will remember the very sad outcome where the PIC eventually committed suicide. Yes it worked, but Cairns isnt exactly as labour intensive as EGLL and we need to keep remembering lessons learned.
P
Although he returned to the flight deck, the PIC workload, tiredness, weather conditions (Cat 3 limits) , and an accompanying autoland failure/conflict meant that he failed to notice until very late in the approach that the autoland system had allowed the aircraft to drift off the centreline, whereupon he executed a go-around. In the G/A the aircraft missed the Heathrow Penta hotel (by about 12 feet reportedly).
The oldies will remember the very sad outcome where the PIC eventually committed suicide. Yes it worked, but Cairns isnt exactly as labour intensive as EGLL and we need to keep remembering lessons learned.
P
Last edited by Pinkman; 1st Dec 2007 at 12:12.
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I salute this F/O
We can always discuss what would be best to do. However I salute this First Officer for handling the situation the best he thought was possible.
We can also consider the scenario if the captain had food poisoning from hotel food or catering. The F/O might be becoming sick as well. With no access to the cockpit becaus the capt was blocking the door. I would say the F/O did excactly the right thing. However I was not there, I dont know.
Again I salute this First Officer for handling a difficult situation well.
We can also consider the scenario if the captain had food poisoning from hotel food or catering. The F/O might be becoming sick as well. With no access to the cockpit becaus the capt was blocking the door. I would say the F/O did excactly the right thing. However I was not there, I dont know.
Again I salute this First Officer for handling a difficult situation well.
A Very Sad Outcome
I remember at the time a lot of condemnation of the authorities and "There but for the grace of God ... " comments.
RIP Glen Stewart.
Does anybody still have a copy of the "Pilot" article about the incident ? ... and more interestingly the painting that accompanied it ?.
RIP Glen Stewart.
Does anybody still have a copy of the "Pilot" article about the incident ? ... and more interestingly the painting that accompanied it ?.
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 29th Nov 2007 at 14:44.
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A few weeks ago a Eurowings CRJ Captain died in his seat on a TXL-DUS flight, FO landed the plane in Hannover HAJ probably despite not having a red pen. Unfortunately such things happen everywhere in the world....
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Just noticed....wonder where the pax sit on those longer flights, ...I understand from the report that the doctor was "called to the cabin", from where, I wonder.
Cheers...FD
Cheers...FD
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Remembering G-AWNO...
Pinkman....many of us will never forget G-AWNO...
In my 28 years at the sharp end I never encountered such injustice and tragedy. Awful, just awful. May he forever RIP. Rgds, bm.
In my 28 years at the sharp end I never encountered such injustice and tragedy. Awful, just awful. May he forever RIP. Rgds, bm.
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I messed up a first attempt to comment on Pinkman and G-AWNO. It's the first attempt I've made to post and apologise for making a nuisance of myself. I gave and repeat a brief personal profile to explain my interest.
I am not a pilot but a retired legal academic with a research post in criminal justice and with an interest in your work - which it was the Lord's intention that I should do, just over fifty years ago, but was frustrated by a paternal decree which I still resent. Now and then I blow some pension and wander round for an hour or so in a Tomahawk with an instructor, but I cannot obtain even a PPL: the process was interrupted permanently by an aneurysm a few years back, though the surgeon insists his Teflon tubing is better than the aorta which was originally installed over 70 years ago.
G-AWNO (and its tragic aftermath) is a horrible case which upset me greatly. It is a case I have studied and published on. I am currently working on a further paper on the criminal liability of pilots, a topic which continues to bother me as there seems to be a lack of coherence in the jurisprudence. I would hope to be able to contribute to legal literature and prevent something like that ever happening again, but I am confused about some of the legal issues.
I have no problems about disclosing my identity off-list but I am uncertain about the protocol and feel somewhat intrusive watching your collective workspace thus at all.
I should be grateful if anyone could give me instances, anywhere in the world, of the conviction of a professional pilot under legislation which makes it an offence which might be broadly described as endangering an aircraft - any country in the world would be relevant. As the sort of model, I refer to the UK's ANO Arts 73 and 74. I would need publicly accessible bibliographic citation details (eg newspaper reports and law reports) so that it can be referred to in a refereed law journal, and it would inevitably make for a publicly-identifiable incident. I am a little reluctant to use the "personal communication" footnote as this could cause ethical problems of disclosure and anonymity.
It is remarkable how few such cases I have been able to locate. I have some statistics of UK prosecutions but these appear to be almost invariably of PPLs.
I hope that I am not out of order in making this enquiry.
I am not a pilot but a retired legal academic with a research post in criminal justice and with an interest in your work - which it was the Lord's intention that I should do, just over fifty years ago, but was frustrated by a paternal decree which I still resent. Now and then I blow some pension and wander round for an hour or so in a Tomahawk with an instructor, but I cannot obtain even a PPL: the process was interrupted permanently by an aneurysm a few years back, though the surgeon insists his Teflon tubing is better than the aorta which was originally installed over 70 years ago.
G-AWNO (and its tragic aftermath) is a horrible case which upset me greatly. It is a case I have studied and published on. I am currently working on a further paper on the criminal liability of pilots, a topic which continues to bother me as there seems to be a lack of coherence in the jurisprudence. I would hope to be able to contribute to legal literature and prevent something like that ever happening again, but I am confused about some of the legal issues.
I have no problems about disclosing my identity off-list but I am uncertain about the protocol and feel somewhat intrusive watching your collective workspace thus at all.
I should be grateful if anyone could give me instances, anywhere in the world, of the conviction of a professional pilot under legislation which makes it an offence which might be broadly described as endangering an aircraft - any country in the world would be relevant. As the sort of model, I refer to the UK's ANO Arts 73 and 74. I would need publicly accessible bibliographic citation details (eg newspaper reports and law reports) so that it can be referred to in a refereed law journal, and it would inevitably make for a publicly-identifiable incident. I am a little reluctant to use the "personal communication" footnote as this could cause ethical problems of disclosure and anonymity.
It is remarkable how few such cases I have been able to locate. I have some statistics of UK prosecutions but these appear to be almost invariably of PPLs.
I hope that I am not out of order in making this enquiry.
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Reply to Dave Gittens:
I do. It's a bit dog-eared and was photocopied badly by some university library, and I am seeking a better myself. The full reference is
Wilkinson, Stephan: `The November Oscar Incident’, Pilot, February 1994, 32.
It is well-written, well-researched and detailed, and makes for unhappy reading.
I do. It's a bit dog-eared and was photocopied badly by some university library, and I am seeking a better myself. The full reference is
Wilkinson, Stephan: `The November Oscar Incident’, Pilot, February 1994, 32.
It is well-written, well-researched and detailed, and makes for unhappy reading.
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Connetts,
I put it to you that you may be asking slightly the wrong question (or that a related one also needs to be asked) - that is, are there countries which put criminal liability on pilots for endangering passengers, rather than aircraft?
I am not sure of this, not having read a report on the incident, but I seem to recall that the PIC of an aircraft which diverted into Kansai within the last few years, following a cargo hold smoke alarm, was very eager to stay airside. My recollection (from press reports) is that as the a/c landed, tower confirmed smoke (which may simply have been from the tyres contacting the runway), so the pilot initiated an evac, during the course of which a couple of passengers were slightly injured. The drum seemed to be that if he went landside, ie. lnaded' in Japan, he'd get knicked for setting in train the events by which some passengers were injured.
Turns out it was a false fire alarm and all was ok.
Maybe another PPRuNer can provide more details.
My point is, I suspect that, aside from well-trodden paths regarding liability for property damage (to the hull and non-human contents), the main source of criminal liability is for personal injury.
Good luck and my legal brain would love to hear of the outcome of your research.
I put it to you that you may be asking slightly the wrong question (or that a related one also needs to be asked) - that is, are there countries which put criminal liability on pilots for endangering passengers, rather than aircraft?
I am not sure of this, not having read a report on the incident, but I seem to recall that the PIC of an aircraft which diverted into Kansai within the last few years, following a cargo hold smoke alarm, was very eager to stay airside. My recollection (from press reports) is that as the a/c landed, tower confirmed smoke (which may simply have been from the tyres contacting the runway), so the pilot initiated an evac, during the course of which a couple of passengers were slightly injured. The drum seemed to be that if he went landside, ie. lnaded' in Japan, he'd get knicked for setting in train the events by which some passengers were injured.
Turns out it was a false fire alarm and all was ok.
Maybe another PPRuNer can provide more details.
My point is, I suspect that, aside from well-trodden paths regarding liability for property damage (to the hull and non-human contents), the main source of criminal liability is for personal injury.
Good luck and my legal brain would love to hear of the outcome of your research.
Warning Toxic!
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Connetts- very intriguing post. The legislation in the UK seems to have been used on Rail employees and Ferry employees mainly. The G-AWNO incident is little known publicly because no damage or injuries were caused, but the ramifications went deep. It was inexplicable to us colleagues of the Captain exactly why the prosecution was brought in the first place, and what exactly it achieved. Indeed it alone caused a dreadfully serious fallout.
As far as aviation is concerned, the nearest that springs to mind was the Exeter Viscount fuel starvation of about 30 years back, but I do not believe that was a prosecution.
As far as aviation is concerned, the nearest that springs to mind was the Exeter Viscount fuel starvation of about 30 years back, but I do not believe that was a prosecution.