Uni Lecturer Gets Off after Punching Jetstar Crew.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Stuck in the middle...
Posts: 1,638
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
B A Lert,
You're quite right, as a criminal matter it is the prosecutor who appeals, rather than the victim - and JQ is a further step remote from the prosecution.
On another point, why are airports 'such stressful places'? Could it be that a punter gets 'stressed' when their expectations are not being met? OK, on one hand that comes from being sold something in advertising and then having the reality fall short - but that happens in many spheres (eg. few men suddenly get set upon by nubile females just for wearing a certain after-shave or piece of clothing). Personally I find that, when I walk into a terminal, I know I'm going to have to wait in queues, no matter if it's business or cattle, Changi or Sydney or Heathrow - so I take a mag to read in the queue. That is, I have low expectations, so pretty much everything is upside!
Hence - whether it was a punch or a 'bitch slap' (
) - you just don't hit anyone else.
You're quite right, as a criminal matter it is the prosecutor who appeals, rather than the victim - and JQ is a further step remote from the prosecution.
On another point, why are airports 'such stressful places'? Could it be that a punter gets 'stressed' when their expectations are not being met? OK, on one hand that comes from being sold something in advertising and then having the reality fall short - but that happens in many spheres (eg. few men suddenly get set upon by nubile females just for wearing a certain after-shave or piece of clothing). Personally I find that, when I walk into a terminal, I know I'm going to have to wait in queues, no matter if it's business or cattle, Changi or Sydney or Heathrow - so I take a mag to read in the queue. That is, I have low expectations, so pretty much everything is upside!
Hence - whether it was a punch or a 'bitch slap' (
) - you just don't hit anyone else.
Last edited by Taildragger67; 28th Nov 2007 at 08:25.
It looks like this judge may be slowly learning something about running a court:
"Over the past five months, Ms Gilmour has sent the office police statements alleging incidents including a security manager being "glassed" and a patron being struck on the head with a billiard cue. Other cases involve swearing at and hitting police.
Ms Gilmour first wrote to the office in May after she became fed up with dealing with three or four hotel-related incidents a week.
"Generally speaking, people of good character holding down good jobs … were all coming in asking for 'section 10s' - no recorded conviction," she said.
She said that for a while she thought "fair enough" but it became so prevalent that she had to stop doing section 10s and start fining people as a deterrent.
"I think the one that started me off was this very nice 23-year-old [with a] full-time job who had done well at school and never been in trouble with police before," she said.
He picked up a female police officer and threw her against a window after he became drunk in a pub and was asked to leave. (Didn't take much to wake her up, then!! )
Ms Gilmour said she was fining people $500 for urinating in the street - "a very expensive leak".
In one incident, a man returned home to Coogee with his four-year-old child to see a man urinating on the security keypad of his block of units. "People shouldn't have to put up with that," she said.
She said the first thing defendants were saying was: "We wouldn't have done anything wrong except for the state of intoxication."
To her surprise, the department and the Government are eagerly supporting her plan."
from: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...036415587.html
"Over the past five months, Ms Gilmour has sent the office police statements alleging incidents including a security manager being "glassed" and a patron being struck on the head with a billiard cue. Other cases involve swearing at and hitting police.
Ms Gilmour first wrote to the office in May after she became fed up with dealing with three or four hotel-related incidents a week.
"Generally speaking, people of good character holding down good jobs … were all coming in asking for 'section 10s' - no recorded conviction," she said.
She said that for a while she thought "fair enough" but it became so prevalent that she had to stop doing section 10s and start fining people as a deterrent.
"I think the one that started me off was this very nice 23-year-old [with a] full-time job who had done well at school and never been in trouble with police before," she said.
He picked up a female police officer and threw her against a window after he became drunk in a pub and was asked to leave. (Didn't take much to wake her up, then!! )
Ms Gilmour said she was fining people $500 for urinating in the street - "a very expensive leak".
In one incident, a man returned home to Coogee with his four-year-old child to see a man urinating on the security keypad of his block of units. "People shouldn't have to put up with that," she said.
She said the first thing defendants were saying was: "We wouldn't have done anything wrong except for the state of intoxication."
To her surprise, the department and the Government are eagerly supporting her plan."
from: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...036415587.html
Thread Starter
There are comments here regarding "Personal Responsibility" and "In all my days I've never seen...."
Has it dawned on anyone that perhaps Jetstar is providing a stressful low quality travel experience that triggers such behaviour? Let's see if this is an isolated incident or does Jetstar frequently have to deal with irate Bogans?
The solution of course is simple. Provide no service and put your employees behind glass and provide them with an emergency button, you already have AFP security goons.
Then you can treat people the way you really want to.
Oh and for good measure...
Melbourne Sydney Friday 30th $139 jetstar vs $147 Qantas. Some saving!
Has it dawned on anyone that perhaps Jetstar is providing a stressful low quality travel experience that triggers such behaviour? Let's see if this is an isolated incident or does Jetstar frequently have to deal with irate Bogans?
The solution of course is simple. Provide no service and put your employees behind glass and provide them with an emergency button, you already have AFP security goons.
Then you can treat people the way you really want to.
Oh and for good measure...
Melbourne Sydney Friday 30th $139 jetstar vs $147 Qantas. Some saving!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With regards to the Magistrate Lee Gilmour's apparent soft touch, I asked my sister and her husband once (they are both Barristers) about why are local court judges constantly coming under public criticism for their perceived weak penalties. "Bloody left wingers" was his reply!!! My brother-in-law explained that you do not become a local court judge for money, he said its like taking a job for DOC's, its attractive to people that think that they can make a difference and don't really care about that hard cash so much, although local court judges can represent all walks of life, he believes (like DOC's) that they have had a strong left wing creep over the last 20 years. He said the more you criticise these guys, the more resolute they become in giving out the soft touch!! Thats how he explained to me anyway
Thread Starter
Wessex - Bolleaux!
My brother is a Magistrate and I wouldn't call him a soft touch or a left winger by any stretch of the imagination, neither would I call any judge or Magistrate a soft touch, and I know one or two.
Furthermore, the easiest, simplest and most "guaranteed to inflame public opinion" news story a journalist can write is the courthouse story about X getting a light sentence, all you have to do is omit certain facts and skew others the way you want them, and perhaps add a statement from the victim.
Jail is not trivial. A conviction is not trivial. And a tongue lashing from a Magistrate is not trivial. The person involved now has a "record" - even though she was discharged without conviction and this record stays with her for life, and it will be taken into consideration if she reoffends in almost any form.
I don't believe anyone here has ever seen the inside of a jail, from all accounts incarceration is highly traumatic for almost all of the population and Magistrates and Judges are well aware of this because they visit them regularly.
A conviction for anything more than a speeding ticket is going to seriously impair a persons ability to travel overseas, work in public service or anywhere else for that matter thanks to the creeping phenomenon of "Police Checks" for many forms of employment.
The best advice on this thread is to find, and then read, the judgment. We do not know anything about the case except that there was no conviction.
For example, we do not know what was said by the Jetstar employee or his demeanour prior to him getting punched - there may have been extreme provocation (ie "Too bad! Your late, slut!", or "Can't you read the conditions on your ticket, Idiot!").
We do not know if the offender immediately apologised. We do not know her background and personal circumstances. We do not know if the person in front of her was allowed on the aircraft, but then the bar was lowered on her. We do not know if the failure of another Jetstar employee or a bit of Jetstar equipment (like an Eftpos terminal) made her late.
In fact we know SFA unless we read the judgement, which just goes to show how gullible the general community (including pilots) are in the face of a badly written inflammatory newspaper article - as this thread, which I started, conclusively demonstrates.
My brother is a Magistrate and I wouldn't call him a soft touch or a left winger by any stretch of the imagination, neither would I call any judge or Magistrate a soft touch, and I know one or two.
Furthermore, the easiest, simplest and most "guaranteed to inflame public opinion" news story a journalist can write is the courthouse story about X getting a light sentence, all you have to do is omit certain facts and skew others the way you want them, and perhaps add a statement from the victim.
Jail is not trivial. A conviction is not trivial. And a tongue lashing from a Magistrate is not trivial. The person involved now has a "record" - even though she was discharged without conviction and this record stays with her for life, and it will be taken into consideration if she reoffends in almost any form.
I don't believe anyone here has ever seen the inside of a jail, from all accounts incarceration is highly traumatic for almost all of the population and Magistrates and Judges are well aware of this because they visit them regularly.
A conviction for anything more than a speeding ticket is going to seriously impair a persons ability to travel overseas, work in public service or anywhere else for that matter thanks to the creeping phenomenon of "Police Checks" for many forms of employment.
The best advice on this thread is to find, and then read, the judgment. We do not know anything about the case except that there was no conviction.
For example, we do not know what was said by the Jetstar employee or his demeanour prior to him getting punched - there may have been extreme provocation (ie "Too bad! Your late, slut!", or "Can't you read the conditions on your ticket, Idiot!").
We do not know if the offender immediately apologised. We do not know her background and personal circumstances. We do not know if the person in front of her was allowed on the aircraft, but then the bar was lowered on her. We do not know if the failure of another Jetstar employee or a bit of Jetstar equipment (like an Eftpos terminal) made her late.
In fact we know SFA unless we read the judgement, which just goes to show how gullible the general community (including pilots) are in the face of a badly written inflammatory newspaper article - as this thread, which I started, conclusively demonstrates.
Evertonian
If she was the very first person to be denied boarding...ever...then perhaps this would be a suitable test case. However, having been in the same position and been verbally assaulted many, many times, I have yet to see any physical assault worthy of reporting to the Police. (6'5" frame helps a lot!)
I'm sure there's a wealth of information in the transcript Lert, but the pertinent information is already available. That being a guilty plea for physical assault.
FFS, we're making people strip at security these days & getting arrested overseas for saying Fair Dinkum!
Talk about mixed messages!
So, she'll lose her job at the Uni??
I'm sure there's a wealth of information in the transcript Lert, but the pertinent information is already available. That being a guilty plea for physical assault.
FFS, we're making people strip at security these days & getting arrested overseas for saying Fair Dinkum!
Talk about mixed messages!
work in public service
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish, don't shoot the messanger mate, just passing on what I was told "first hand" by my brother-in-law. I do not for a moment claim to be an expert in law in as most likely you are, however I did say they represent all walks of life and that in his opinion there was a left wing tendency at the local court level. Have I ever been to jail, no mate, haven't even had a parking ticket!!I'll give you an example of soft sunfish, last month a friend of mine fronted Newtown local court on his 6th drink driving offence in 10 years, on his 5th he got 6 months weekend detention, on his 6th last month, he received a 9 month suspension of his licence, NO FINE as the judge actually forgot to fine him and 100 hours community service, my personal opinion is YES, local courts are as soft as ****e but that is just my opinion!!!
When it comes to personal experiences, i live in the inner western suburb of Petersham in Sydney, my local "The white Cockatoo" has been held up 5 times this year, in fact every pub in Petersham/ Leichardt has been held up this year, actually they have all been done at least twice. I have been in 2 pubs when they got done over(no I am not a piss head!!
), I have walked into our local newsagent when she ( a lady in her 60's) had a wiltshire knife to her throat during a hold up, our local bank has been held up this year, 2 weeks ago I was walking down Norton Street at lunchtime when a black BMW fired off a few rounds across the busy street full of shoppers, mothers with babies etc, our local Coles was held up 5 tuesdays ago at 9 in the morning(no I wasn't there), place was full of elderly and mothers with youngsters, and I live in a so called trendy inner city suburb with a million dollar price tag. These crimes almost always involve firearms or tasers. There are many reasons for the crime stats but one I believe is that these kids have no fear of the ramifications because the courts go soft too often!!
When it comes to personal experiences, i live in the inner western suburb of Petersham in Sydney, my local "The white Cockatoo" has been held up 5 times this year, in fact every pub in Petersham/ Leichardt has been held up this year, actually they have all been done at least twice. I have been in 2 pubs when they got done over(no I am not a piss head!!
), I have walked into our local newsagent when she ( a lady in her 60's) had a wiltshire knife to her throat during a hold up, our local bank has been held up this year, 2 weeks ago I was walking down Norton Street at lunchtime when a black BMW fired off a few rounds across the busy street full of shoppers, mothers with babies etc, our local Coles was held up 5 tuesdays ago at 9 in the morning(no I wasn't there), place was full of elderly and mothers with youngsters, and I live in a so called trendy inner city suburb with a million dollar price tag. These crimes almost always involve firearms or tasers. There are many reasons for the crime stats but one I believe is that these kids have no fear of the ramifications because the courts go soft too often!!
Last edited by wessex19; 28th Nov 2007 at 23:41.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
Posts: 2,976
Received 104 Likes
on
59 Posts
I think that the Customer Service Manager showed remarkable restraint in not retaliating!
Thread Starter
Wessex, no offence intended. I'm in the inner city in Melbourne and we have our share of trouble as well.
I think you are making a connection between stiffer sentences and deterrence of crime that has not actually been shown to exist. Most drug users for example couldn't give a damn what the penalty for robbery and assault is, especially amphetamine users, who can be psychotic and totally off their tree when they commit offences. They just don't care - this is both from my brother the Magistrate as well as several police I know.
My brother has to think long and hard before he convicts and/or throws someone in the slammer because the "knock-on" effects for that individual and possibly his (her) family can be simply enormous and destructive for society as a whole.
Do it to a young first offender and you may be setting him up for a life of crime since prisons are the "Universities" in this respect and from what one hears there is very little rehabilitation work done in prisons these days.
For example, a conviction for assault in this particular case would probably trigger a "show cause" letter from a University Vice Chancellor, followed by a disciplinary hearing, sacking, and a complete loss of Academic career prospects with possible financial and personal consequences for her family if she has one. I would expect that her defence lawyer would have made exactly this argument.
On the other hand the young lady who told my brother to "get stuffed"(and other suggestions) in an assault case hearing was surprised when she got three months in the slammer and was lead away in tears. She expected to be back on the streets that afternoon.
I suggest "Light sentences" are something of an urban myth these days, as is the one most teenagers believe about their record being "secret" and getting a fresh start at age 18. I've had to explain to more than one teenager that once you have "form" you have it for life, and if you commit offences after age 18, your Judge WILL have access to your entire history and take it into account when sentencing.
I think you are making a connection between stiffer sentences and deterrence of crime that has not actually been shown to exist. Most drug users for example couldn't give a damn what the penalty for robbery and assault is, especially amphetamine users, who can be psychotic and totally off their tree when they commit offences. They just don't care - this is both from my brother the Magistrate as well as several police I know.
My brother has to think long and hard before he convicts and/or throws someone in the slammer because the "knock-on" effects for that individual and possibly his (her) family can be simply enormous and destructive for society as a whole.
Do it to a young first offender and you may be setting him up for a life of crime since prisons are the "Universities" in this respect and from what one hears there is very little rehabilitation work done in prisons these days.
For example, a conviction for assault in this particular case would probably trigger a "show cause" letter from a University Vice Chancellor, followed by a disciplinary hearing, sacking, and a complete loss of Academic career prospects with possible financial and personal consequences for her family if she has one. I would expect that her defence lawyer would have made exactly this argument.
On the other hand the young lady who told my brother to "get stuffed"(and other suggestions) in an assault case hearing was surprised when she got three months in the slammer and was lead away in tears. She expected to be back on the streets that afternoon.
I suggest "Light sentences" are something of an urban myth these days, as is the one most teenagers believe about their record being "secret" and getting a fresh start at age 18. I've had to explain to more than one teenager that once you have "form" you have it for life, and if you commit offences after age 18, your Judge WILL have access to your entire history and take it into account when sentencing.
I'm confused!
So telling the beak to 'get stuffed' justifies three months in the slammer.
But physically assaulting a person is not worthy of a conviction because they may now suffer from having a criminal record?
Huh?
No wonder the legal profession charge such high fees to make sense out of it all!
So telling the beak to 'get stuffed' justifies three months in the slammer.
But physically assaulting a person is not worthy of a conviction because they may now suffer from having a criminal record?
Huh?
No wonder the legal profession charge such high fees to make sense out of it all!
Thread Starter
Allan L. - As my brother pointed out, he doesn't give a stuff what names he is called but he considered that she wasn't abusing him, she was abusing the Court itself by abusing the office of Magistrate (let alone the police)
Don't EVER think of abusing a judge or not complying with their directions. They can lock you up on the spot for contempt of court if the feel you are abusing the system or not paying due deference to the bench.
In my brothers case, what she got was perfectly within the law and the correct sentencing range. The usual penalty for whatever offense it was (I can't remember) was three months - usually suspended by the Magistrate but that is at the Magistrates absolute discretion, and in this case she copped it.
I would imagine the Academic involved in this Jetstar case was a model of remorse, respect, tearfulness and all the other virtues that get turned on in a courtroom, not like the abusive slag my bro put away.
Don't EVER think of abusing a judge or not complying with their directions. They can lock you up on the spot for contempt of court if the feel you are abusing the system or not paying due deference to the bench.
In my brothers case, what she got was perfectly within the law and the correct sentencing range. The usual penalty for whatever offense it was (I can't remember) was three months - usually suspended by the Magistrate but that is at the Magistrates absolute discretion, and in this case she copped it.
I would imagine the Academic involved in this Jetstar case was a model of remorse, respect, tearfulness and all the other virtues that get turned on in a courtroom, not like the abusive slag my bro put away.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Atlantis
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fact ( female) pax turned up 12 minutes late for 30 min requirement and was denied boarding pass then verbally abused male check in person and threw mobile phone at him. Airport security was called and pax physically hit ( male) security officer. Police called , pax resisited arrest and was then arrested. At hearing Magistrate (female) stated airports are stressful places and fined pax $70 in court cost with no conviction recorded.
Alan Joyce Jetstar CE has declared pax persona-non-grata across the Qantas group of Airlines. The matter is now closed as far as John Hatzistergos the NSW Attorney General is concerned.
Agree with all expressions of disgust at leniency of this magistrate . If it's any consolation Radio Talk back host Ray Hadley of Sydney station 2Gb has been giving the Magistrate Lee Gilmour and the pax Patricia McManus 42 of Carlingford an absolute pasting over this for the last 2 days even to the extent of ringing Miss McManus' (note spelling McManus not MacManus)home phone (number publicly available in White Pages ) to ask her opinion on the outcome . Apparently a male person (partner?) said she didn't wish to discuss the matter with 2GB.
Alan Joyce Jetstar CE has declared pax persona-non-grata across the Qantas group of Airlines. The matter is now closed as far as John Hatzistergos the NSW Attorney General is concerned.
Agree with all expressions of disgust at leniency of this magistrate . If it's any consolation Radio Talk back host Ray Hadley of Sydney station 2Gb has been giving the Magistrate Lee Gilmour and the pax Patricia McManus 42 of Carlingford an absolute pasting over this for the last 2 days even to the extent of ringing Miss McManus' (note spelling McManus not MacManus)home phone (number publicly available in White Pages ) to ask her opinion on the outcome . Apparently a male person (partner?) said she didn't wish to discuss the matter with 2GB.
Quite simply,
There is NO place for that sort of behaviour, regardless of personal circumstances! It was blatant violence and aggression on the part of the offender, and what message is being sent by justifying this kind of behaviour with 'airports are stressful'!
I suppose i'm just repeating what has already been said...
This just makes all our jobs that little bit harder in the end...
There is NO place for that sort of behaviour, regardless of personal circumstances! It was blatant violence and aggression on the part of the offender, and what message is being sent by justifying this kind of behaviour with 'airports are stressful'!
I suppose i'm just repeating what has already been said...
This just makes all our jobs that little bit harder in the end...
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
......ponder this............this aggressive woman was halted at the airport, BEFORE she got the chance to board the aircraft. If allowed to board after being abusive as in she bluffed her way onboard just enough to get thru then got further agitated at a Cabin attendant whilst in flight over perhaps another stressful matter such as cold coffee !. This would be highly probable 'cause she would most likely be very upset from the previous miss handled incident & not thinking clearly.
Am glad the situation was nipped in the bud (at the expense of another human sadly) before she was allowed to perhaps create havoc where further authoritarian assitance wasn't at hand at short notice.
The Aussie judicial system is constantly being questioned (we hear & see the poor outcomes almost daily thru the media) for it's leniency from the very people whom it was designed to protect.........US law abiding citizens !!
Capt Wally:-)
Am glad the situation was nipped in the bud (at the expense of another human sadly) before she was allowed to perhaps create havoc where further authoritarian assitance wasn't at hand at short notice.
The Aussie judicial system is constantly being questioned (we hear & see the poor outcomes almost daily thru the media) for it's leniency from the very people whom it was designed to protect.........US law abiding citizens !!
Capt Wally:-)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oz
Age: 63
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you were checking in 12mins pror to departure and you decide to punch me twice because YOU are running late???????
Im STRESSED TOO,can I punch you.........and get away with a $70 fine... I think not
What sort of message is this giving to the general public????????
Im STRESSED TOO,can I punch you.........and get away with a $70 fine... I think not
What sort of message is this giving to the general public????????
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: East Midlands
Age: 84
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the problem lies with the prosecuters a lot of the time. In UK a person in breach of an ASBO can be imprisoned at once. Recently a charming yoof was on his 15th breach of conditions before being jailed, gaining much street cred with his mates as they saw how powerless or unwilling people were to enforce the law and/or his ASBO conditions. Link here
http://tinyurl.com/3c2hmd
http://tinyurl.com/3c2hmd
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Imagine the punishment if the agent actually retaliated............
She might be banned from all Qf group airlines but I hope DJ and Tiger do the same - this stance would send a clear message to her.
She might be banned from all Qf group airlines but I hope DJ and Tiger do the same - this stance would send a clear message to her.