REx Management – “OUTthere” or “OUT of there”
Guptar.
No fire from me mate. Some very good points made.
The issue of a pay rise for pilots but not for the rest of the workforce has been trundled out by management before as a reason for inaction in this area. On the surface it appears a logical arguement. Except for one thing. This crisis is the result of a lack of pilots, and not, with all due respect other less technical staff. When the direct operation of the airline is being threatened by the shortage of baggage handlers, CSO's, caterers, etc..., then it will be time to review the remuneration of these people as well. Irrespective of what others may think, no pilots, no flying, no airline. It really is as simple as that.
As for most of your other initiatives, agree 100%. Ironically, the only way you will achieve a better lifestyle for REX pilots, is to have more REX pilots. Mmmmm....
Knackered,
Interesing point. The United Airline pilots are currently petitioning for around a 50% payrise. They have stated that this will restore their pay to what it was, (relatively speaking) back in 1991! Pretty close to the mark mate.
No fire from me mate. Some very good points made.
The issue of a pay rise for pilots but not for the rest of the workforce has been trundled out by management before as a reason for inaction in this area. On the surface it appears a logical arguement. Except for one thing. This crisis is the result of a lack of pilots, and not, with all due respect other less technical staff. When the direct operation of the airline is being threatened by the shortage of baggage handlers, CSO's, caterers, etc..., then it will be time to review the remuneration of these people as well. Irrespective of what others may think, no pilots, no flying, no airline. It really is as simple as that.
As for most of your other initiatives, agree 100%. Ironically, the only way you will achieve a better lifestyle for REX pilots, is to have more REX pilots. Mmmmm....
Knackered,
Interesing point. The United Airline pilots are currently petitioning for around a 50% payrise. They have stated that this will restore their pay to what it was, (relatively speaking) back in 1991! Pretty close to the mark mate.
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Krusty....The only problem with your argument is that if one group within any company gets a substantial payrise or any increase really in conditions then every other group within that company will want the same.
I have seen pilots do the very same when cabin crew got something they did not.
It always leads to other groups....Human nature i suppose
I have seen pilots do the very same when cabin crew got something they did not.
It always leads to other groups....Human nature i suppose
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Lowerlobe,
the problem with your argument is that they are not cancelling large numbers of flights because of shortages in the other areas....
ops, cc, ground staff can all be replaced quickly with minimal training, pilots can't....and if the others still want a company i'm sure they would not protest to the pilots getting paid more to save it!!
the problem with your argument is that they are not cancelling large numbers of flights because of shortages in the other areas....
ops, cc, ground staff can all be replaced quickly with minimal training, pilots can't....and if the others still want a company i'm sure they would not protest to the pilots getting paid more to save it!!
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The problem with an isolationist argument is that you are only seeing it from one side and there are always more than one side to an argument.
it's true that an airline needs pilots but they also ned cabin crew unless it's a cargo outfit.They also need engineers,groundstaff etc..it's a team effort.
Your argument falls down with a perfect example the medical profession.If it wasn't for nurses then the whole system would collapse within days.
Are nurses paid their true worth?
Doctor's are highly trained and paid for their efforts but nurses are treated in much the same way as cabin crew.
If all cabin crew walked out the whole airline would stop as well and take some time to get going again....but it would.
Just as it did during the domestic pilots dispute.....
it's true that an airline needs pilots but they also ned cabin crew unless it's a cargo outfit.They also need engineers,groundstaff etc..it's a team effort.
Your argument falls down with a perfect example the medical profession.If it wasn't for nurses then the whole system would collapse within days.
Are nurses paid their true worth?
Doctor's are highly trained and paid for their efforts but nurses are treated in much the same way as cabin crew.
If all cabin crew walked out the whole airline would stop as well and take some time to get going again....but it would.
Just as it did during the domestic pilots dispute.....
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Lowerlobe,
you points are relevant, however, for example there is an outfit at brissy airport called aviation australia who charge cabin crew 3000 for training with no job at the end....rex could pick them up and have them ready in days....also go to your local maccas and ask who wants to be a flighty, i'll bet most of the young girls would stick their hands up!!
you points are relevant, however, for example there is an outfit at brissy airport called aviation australia who charge cabin crew 3000 for training with no job at the end....rex could pick them up and have them ready in days....also go to your local maccas and ask who wants to be a flighty, i'll bet most of the young girls would stick their hands up!!
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Lobe, I am genuinely not try to be rude & many of the things you say are correct. I am not trying to 'dis these other groups, just the opposite. However the airline is looking down the barrel of severely reduced flying.
Grudgingly, the other groups may have to accept that pay increases for pilots so they can keep their job. Many of the other groups do not see the tortured path into the pilot's seat of an RPT aircraft.
If the flying gig is so lucrative, they could always apply for the cadetship themselves. There you go, a positive suggestion!
Grudgingly, the other groups may have to accept that pay increases for pilots so they can keep their job. Many of the other groups do not see the tortured path into the pilot's seat of an RPT aircraft.
If the flying gig is so lucrative, they could always apply for the cadetship themselves. There you go, a positive suggestion!
Lowerlobe,
As you can see by the responses there is no problem with my arguement. The problem is that we do not have enough pilots, and they are becoming scarcer by the day. The Idea of the problems associated with paying an increase to one group and not another is not lost on me either. If you carefully re-read my post you will see that.
One way of mitigating the fall out would be a professional retention bonus. After 2 years as a REX pilot you can then qualify to enter your first bonus period (say 12 months), after that if you have not gone to another job, whallahh... you get the dough! Stay for another 12 months and guess what?..., well we all get the picture.
If another employee group would like a peice of the action, then all they have to do is meet the criteria.
As you can see by the responses there is no problem with my arguement. The problem is that we do not have enough pilots, and they are becoming scarcer by the day. The Idea of the problems associated with paying an increase to one group and not another is not lost on me either. If you carefully re-read my post you will see that.
One way of mitigating the fall out would be a professional retention bonus. After 2 years as a REX pilot you can then qualify to enter your first bonus period (say 12 months), after that if you have not gone to another job, whallahh... you get the dough! Stay for another 12 months and guess what?..., well we all get the picture.
If another employee group would like a peice of the action, then all they have to do is meet the criteria.
... if you have not gone to another job, whallahh... you get the dough!
Launch_code_Harry,
I see you haven't accepted my invitation to come out and declare that there will never be pilotless airliners.
Monopole said:
I work in GA. I have recently gainded a 30% payrise (not though Skippers) for the same job for the same company. If a GA company can afford this, so should an RPT co.
That pay rise will be causing great headaches for your company when the flying associated with the resources boom starts to abate.
Torres said:
I don't understand. To improve the T&Cs, REX would have to increase fares, which would result in less people flying with REX, and more taking the train, bus or car. So, rather than being at the expense of another industry sector, this action by REX would advantage those other industries.
I don't disagree with this, but where does the money come from to finance these improvements?
Hugh Jarse,
To my request for more details on the pay increases that have occurred elsewhere in Australia, you named Skippers and Surveillance Australia.
I am not so sure the Skippers pilots are any better off. Perhaps somebody from there can enlighten us. Their job ad that mentioned $75K salary for Metro and $95K for Brasilia (captains) was related to their new AWA. That new AWA contained some lamentable conditions, from what I can gather. Both the AFAP and TWU recommended that pilots not sign up to it.
I was unaware re Surveillance Australia. Can anybody indicate how much of an improvement to their T&Cs was made?
I had heard rumours about Network Aviation pilots getting an increase. Monopole has confirmed that the rise was about 30%.
About staff "being engaged", I said that most staff don't want to be engaged. To that, you said:
It seems we might have different definitions for the word "engaged" when it applies to a workforce. Could you please give me your definition? Perhaps someone from Qantas could give the definition as it applied to their recent "engagement survey".
How can you say that, when, in my earlier post I said I would open discussions with certain staff in order to find arrangements that would make their lives easier? (Post #43).
VH-Cheer Up,
In your post "the laws of averages" it appears you are suggesting that the cumulative profits for the airline industry are near zero because they are supposed to be near zero.
Does this apply only to airlines? I bet the oil & gas industry cumulative profit isn't anywhere near zero.
I'm glad you agree with me about the Qantas management. I have had many debates on PPRUNE with Qantas staff about their management.
Management alone is not the sole determinant as to whether a company is profitable. A lot depends on outside events and circumstances beyond the company's control.
KRUSTY 34,
Going back to your earlier assertions that the management had agreed with the suggestion put forward by the pilots that a $6.25 surcharge would finance a 40% salary increase for the pilots.
I am curious about this and would like more information. If it wasn't "hearsay and chinese whispers" then it must have been a manager being "diplomatic" (telling a little white lie). Managers do this sometimes, unfortunately. They really shouldn't, and whenever I see one doing it I always point out to them just how foolish it can be.
REX (or any other airline) could improve it's terms, conditions and remuneration to solve it's own problem, but it would be at the expense of another industry sector.
Improved terms, conditions and remuneration is a part of the solution.
Hugh Jarse,
To my request for more details on the pay increases that have occurred elsewhere in Australia, you named Skippers and Surveillance Australia.
I am not so sure the Skippers pilots are any better off. Perhaps somebody from there can enlighten us. Their job ad that mentioned $75K salary for Metro and $95K for Brasilia (captains) was related to their new AWA. That new AWA contained some lamentable conditions, from what I can gather. Both the AFAP and TWU recommended that pilots not sign up to it.
I was unaware re Surveillance Australia. Can anybody indicate how much of an improvement to their T&Cs was made?
I had heard rumours about Network Aviation pilots getting an increase. Monopole has confirmed that the rise was about 30%.
About staff "being engaged", I said that most staff don't want to be engaged. To that, you said:
I could not disagree with you enough on that statement.
It appears you hold the opinion that taking an interest in your staff's wellbeing and looking for ways to make things better is a sign of a weak management technique.
VH-Cheer Up,
In your post "the laws of averages" it appears you are suggesting that the cumulative profits for the airline industry are near zero because they are supposed to be near zero.
Does this apply only to airlines? I bet the oil & gas industry cumulative profit isn't anywhere near zero.
Net returns for an industry where some players are producing stand-out returns (SIA, Qantas, for example) simply highlight the differences between management that can turn a buck and management that can't.
Management alone is not the sole determinant as to whether a company is profitable. A lot depends on outside events and circumstances beyond the company's control.
KRUSTY 34,
Going back to your earlier assertions that the management had agreed with the suggestion put forward by the pilots that a $6.25 surcharge would finance a 40% salary increase for the pilots.
I am curious about this and would like more information. If it wasn't "hearsay and chinese whispers" then it must have been a manager being "diplomatic" (telling a little white lie). Managers do this sometimes, unfortunately. They really shouldn't, and whenever I see one doing it I always point out to them just how foolish it can be.
Aircraft...pilotless RPT heavy aircraft huh? Well let's look at driverless trains. They exist, they are technically feasible but are they widespread? No. Why?
Two reasons. One, the technology is more expensive than having a driver and a driver can deal with failures, obstructions on the line etc better
Two. People like having someone responsible for their safety AT THE FRONT of the vehicle on which they are travelling, because that way that person has a vested interest in getting home safely.
If you did indeed have pilotless aircraft (actually it would be "flown" from a ground terminal) you would still need a PILOT, and a second PILOT in case the first dropped dead. Where is the cost saving there then?
Which just goes to show how poorly thought out your posts are.
Two reasons. One, the technology is more expensive than having a driver and a driver can deal with failures, obstructions on the line etc better
Two. People like having someone responsible for their safety AT THE FRONT of the vehicle on which they are travelling, because that way that person has a vested interest in getting home safely.
If you did indeed have pilotless aircraft (actually it would be "flown" from a ground terminal) you would still need a PILOT, and a second PILOT in case the first dropped dead. Where is the cost saving there then?
Which just goes to show how poorly thought out your posts are.
Gentlemen, the last few post have been a perfect example of the value of PPRuNe as a formum for discussion, well thought out arguements that not necesarily agree but none the less valid. Well done chaps.
It seems to me that there is one word at the heart of the matter, a word whos omission, is the key factor in the ailment of many a company. That word is RESPECT.
In REX, its obvious;
That management has no respect for the workforce.Pilots or otherwise.
Some pilots dont have respect for other pilots.
Some groups, dont have respect for other grouups.
You give the word RESPECT its due reverence, and treat others as ou would have yourself treated, I think many of the problems would evaoprate almost overnight. Then, working as a TEAM, you can grow the business and make the pie bigger.
I allways use Southwest Airlines in the US as my model, at the core of their values is respect, and it comes down right from the top. Thats why they are the most successful airline in the world. I;m sure Herb Kheller would roll his eyes if he saw what was happening at REX. Now i;m not gettng all new age with warm fuzzys, its just good business.
Of course, pilots at REX should be paid at a rate that is competative in the market place, just the same as any other profession, I would be interested to see how much of an increase would be needed to make them more competative.
Unfortunately as long as the airline is owned by Chinese interests, there is little likely hood of change as they view employees as numbers, not people. I myself work for a chinese boss.
A boss I worked with taught me a valuable lesson when i bacame a supervisor for the first time. He said "You look after your boys, and they will look after you".
It seems to me that there is one word at the heart of the matter, a word whos omission, is the key factor in the ailment of many a company. That word is RESPECT.
In REX, its obvious;
That management has no respect for the workforce.Pilots or otherwise.
Some pilots dont have respect for other pilots.
Some groups, dont have respect for other grouups.
You give the word RESPECT its due reverence, and treat others as ou would have yourself treated, I think many of the problems would evaoprate almost overnight. Then, working as a TEAM, you can grow the business and make the pie bigger.
I allways use Southwest Airlines in the US as my model, at the core of their values is respect, and it comes down right from the top. Thats why they are the most successful airline in the world. I;m sure Herb Kheller would roll his eyes if he saw what was happening at REX. Now i;m not gettng all new age with warm fuzzys, its just good business.
Of course, pilots at REX should be paid at a rate that is competative in the market place, just the same as any other profession, I would be interested to see how much of an increase would be needed to make them more competative.
Unfortunately as long as the airline is owned by Chinese interests, there is little likely hood of change as they view employees as numbers, not people. I myself work for a chinese boss.
A boss I worked with taught me a valuable lesson when i bacame a supervisor for the first time. He said "You look after your boys, and they will look after you".
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aircraft, bless him, said
Tell 'im he's dreaming.
I'll go out on a limb here, and say never in any of our lifetimes.
As long as the cost of the crew is a fraction of the value of the hull, expect to find warm bodies operating the systems in attendance on board at all times.
Autonomous UAVs are for high risk combat theatre situations only. Not for shifting 7-800 people around at a time.
Even cattle trucks have drivers.
"Icarus2001,
Two pilots?
Try 4 or 5, but "looking after" several hundred aircraft."
Two pilots?
Try 4 or 5, but "looking after" several hundred aircraft."
I'll go out on a limb here, and say never in any of our lifetimes.
As long as the cost of the crew is a fraction of the value of the hull, expect to find warm bodies operating the systems in attendance on board at all times.
Autonomous UAVs are for high risk combat theatre situations only. Not for shifting 7-800 people around at a time.
Even cattle trucks have drivers.
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Aircraft:
You live in a fantasy land, not everything you see in the movies is true you know...
Two pilots?
Try 4 or 5, but "looking after" several hundred aircraft.
Try 4 or 5, but "looking after" several hundred aircraft.
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so i should be looking at an Air traffic controller position then? looking after several hundred aircraft at a time! 
imagine the workload, directing air traffic! and flying the aircraft at the same time!!!
imagine the workload, directing air traffic! and flying the aircraft at the same time!!!
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........a lot of the travelling public (probably business men/women) don't like props on planes (there for boats remember!) hence a lot of RJ's now exist(& for various others reasons obviously). That being the case I would love to see the faces of future pax when they board a pilotless plane !!!!
Brings a whole new meaning to that saying (which I might add would be broadcast from a pre recorded tape!) "is there a pilot on board" !!!!!.....................the answer to that..................nope, not one within several thousand feet !!.........(most times)
...............I believe that we shall in our lifteime & our childrens lifetimes & their childrens lifetime & so on shall always see a human intervening onboard an A/C at the pointy end !:-)
Capt Wally:-)
p.s............funny actually A/C how are already being 'controlled' by ground personal, ATC.......scarey to think that them & us would be seated side by side in the future !:-)
Brings a whole new meaning to that saying (which I might add would be broadcast from a pre recorded tape!) "is there a pilot on board" !!!!!.....................the answer to that..................nope, not one within several thousand feet !!.........(most times)
...............I believe that we shall in our lifteime & our childrens lifetimes & their childrens lifetime & so on shall always see a human intervening onboard an A/C at the pointy end !:-)
Capt Wally:-)
p.s............funny actually A/C how are already being 'controlled' by ground personal, ATC.......scarey to think that them & us would be seated side by side in the future !:-)
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scarey to think that them & us would be seated side by side in the future !:-)
Just imagine........ You are 400' after takeoff, engage the autopilot, put feet on console and chill out. Passing 10'000 call out for someone, anyone, we don't care, to go and make us a cup of coffee. You then look over smuggly to the ATCer in the chair next to you and ask for track shortening. Now here's the good bit........
No matter how p!ssed he is with you right now, he can't refuse it because we would be able to see what is exactly on his screen
Now with the lesser track miles (but same ticket cost) some real savings could be made to properly pay the crew. Maybe Aircraft is actually onto something here
What about weather avoidance?
Pilotless aircraft will need a fully automated system for Wx avoidance. The latest multi-beam Wx radars in service are obviously a technological step towards such a system. The only problem is - THEY DON'T WORK. The system analyses the weather 3 dimensionally and only shows Wx on the screen if it thinks that it will affect the aircraft. Often though it thinks that weather is not significant until the aircraft is very close to it and a very quick response is required by the pilots to avoid injuries in the cabin. A lot more development is required before this can be adapted for pilotless aircraft.
Also. controlling the aircraft from the ground will obviously be via satellite links which from experience so far with CPDLC operations can not be relied on - especially during periods of increased sunspot activity.
Also. controlling the aircraft from the ground will obviously be via satellite links which from experience so far with CPDLC operations can not be relied on - especially during periods of increased sunspot activity.
Nunc est bibendum
Guptar, when there is a shortage of F/As, check in staff, engineers, etc, then I'll be the first one barracking for a 'F/A, check in staff, engineer, etc retention surcharge'.
Although this shortage has been created due to crap terms and conditions, the short term answer is not going to be solved by playing at the edges of those pay rates, etc. What is needed is drastic action- like what the airlines have done with fuel surcharges. It's a short term solution until the 'industry' (and that includes Rex management) can work out what they need to do to get more young people opting for an aviation career. So far they've been short on all ideas.
Although this shortage has been created due to crap terms and conditions, the short term answer is not going to be solved by playing at the edges of those pay rates, etc. What is needed is drastic action- like what the airlines have done with fuel surcharges. It's a short term solution until the 'industry' (and that includes Rex management) can work out what they need to do to get more young people opting for an aviation career. So far they've been short on all ideas.