Jet* and Japan..A Failure
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Capt....thats why Im not a betting type...but I hear from many in QF this is 'highly likely' on certain routes at least. Maybe a lot will depend what happens with the Japanese market (eg exchange rate) over the near future. Couldnt see it happening out of SYD though.
QF Insider...all the answers you seek are in the media release on the FY results. Plus if you are really an Insider you will have access to the rest.
EWL.. indeed enjoy the weekend. Remember when the 332 pitch is not the best (I face similare problems as you) there is always Star Class for INT flights.
Cheers
QF Insider...all the answers you seek are in the media release on the FY results. Plus if you are really an Insider you will have access to the rest.
EWL.. indeed enjoy the weekend. Remember when the 332 pitch is not the best (I face similare problems as you) there is always Star Class for INT flights.
Cheers
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Oh I guess you are refering to the publicly available information.
There is little information there, that is the point. Contribution margin, nett of transfer pricing (which certainly isn't there) would be marginal if at all.
And it certainly isn't a case of being inside the company, all investors should actually be able to discern the "value" of an investment their company makes by reviewing the Financial accounts. As this information is totally lacking one can conclude that in fact the contribution this "asset" makes is at the margin. As many posters here allude to, the Japan market is falling apart, but you won't find that in a media relaease.......
There is little information there, that is the point. Contribution margin, nett of transfer pricing (which certainly isn't there) would be marginal if at all.
And it certainly isn't a case of being inside the company, all investors should actually be able to discern the "value" of an investment their company makes by reviewing the Financial accounts. As this information is totally lacking one can conclude that in fact the contribution this "asset" makes is at the margin. As many posters here allude to, the Japan market is falling apart, but you won't find that in a media relaease.......
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Hi QFInsider,
I think you are right, the Japanese market is falling apart, but most of the posts here suggest this is JQ fault and the poor decisions of QF execs. My guess is JQ is being moved to do these routes to ensure that they dont go altogether, as mainline is simply more expensive to justify operation and is causing losses on these routes. Maybe in years ahead as things change in exchange rates QF will go full stride into what may become a high yield route again. Hopefully so for all those QF crew that are worried about dropping those big allowances!
In fact the company has alluded to this market problem previously in public (cant recall how long ago) and many tourism industry groups have been doing the same. Its no secret and its out there.
Your point on rate of return is fair, but keep in mind the important rate of return is the profiit on that investment, not simply the revenue. Cost does play a big part in that. All those execs which we love and hate at diff times, have an invested interest to get the best return from each aircraft. So why would they simply give a/c to JQ if they werent getting a better return from it?? From memory the return from JQ was laid out in FY results so that will give some idea what their contribution was from the number of aircraft they (JQ) have...wouldnt it??
Cheers
I think you are right, the Japanese market is falling apart, but most of the posts here suggest this is JQ fault and the poor decisions of QF execs. My guess is JQ is being moved to do these routes to ensure that they dont go altogether, as mainline is simply more expensive to justify operation and is causing losses on these routes. Maybe in years ahead as things change in exchange rates QF will go full stride into what may become a high yield route again. Hopefully so for all those QF crew that are worried about dropping those big allowances!
In fact the company has alluded to this market problem previously in public (cant recall how long ago) and many tourism industry groups have been doing the same. Its no secret and its out there.
Your point on rate of return is fair, but keep in mind the important rate of return is the profiit on that investment, not simply the revenue. Cost does play a big part in that. All those execs which we love and hate at diff times, have an invested interest to get the best return from each aircraft. So why would they simply give a/c to JQ if they werent getting a better return from it?? From memory the return from JQ was laid out in FY results so that will give some idea what their contribution was from the number of aircraft they (JQ) have...wouldnt it??
Cheers
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Wrong Business Model
Allowances around thw world were big when the $A was weak.
That was in the mid nineties...those days are well and truly gone.
There appears to be misunderstanding in this thread about the Japanese market.
No one is blaming Jet* for the demise of the market.Its just that it is the incorrect business model to be peddling in Japan at this time.
What the airlines want to do and what the market expects are at odds.
The Japanese equate price with quality and prestige and that is what they expect.Jet*doesnt meet those expectations.
As the yen weakens and yields fall airlines (In particular QF)want to reduce their costs to maintain profitability by introducing LCC to the market.
This does not meet the market expectations.Ergo the model will fail(is failing) in Japan.
That was in the mid nineties...those days are well and truly gone.
There appears to be misunderstanding in this thread about the Japanese market.
No one is blaming Jet* for the demise of the market.Its just that it is the incorrect business model to be peddling in Japan at this time.
What the airlines want to do and what the market expects are at odds.
The Japanese equate price with quality and prestige and that is what they expect.Jet*doesnt meet those expectations.
As the yen weakens and yields fall airlines (In particular QF)want to reduce their costs to maintain profitability by introducing LCC to the market.
This does not meet the market expectations.Ergo the model will fail(is failing) in Japan.
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Has anyone travelled QF inbound to Australia? When the FA announces "Those passegers on Jetstar collect your luggage and make your own way to the domestic terminal" it is not exactly the sevice standard that people expect. Lufthansa, Austrian, BA, ANA, JAL, it is a pretty poor effort really. It means if you have a connecting flight you can basically get st...fed.
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Meguro. Why? If you buy a ticket on Jetstar, you have to collect your baggage and recheck in. If you buy a ticket on a connecting Qantas flight (remember they are different airlines), your bags will be connected on the next flight and you can take the international transfer bus. If you bought a ticket on Jetstar, thats your tough luck. You get what you pay for. I'm amazed that they say anything at all about Jetstar.
TMAK,
You have just given me the best belly laugh in quite some time!
The loads to NGO and KIX are so good on 1* that they have cut the services!!!!!!
Ba ha ha ha you crack me up! Nothing like fiction getting in the way of a bit of fact.
M
ps On the 76 loads to KIX and NGO were consistently 229 pax.
pps. That means full load.
Cheers
M
You have just given me the best belly laugh in quite some time!
The loads to NGO and KIX are so good on 1* that they have cut the services!!!!!!
Ba ha ha ha you crack me up! Nothing like fiction getting in the way of a bit of fact.
M
ps On the 76 loads to KIX and NGO were consistently 229 pax.
pps. That means full load.
Cheers
M
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M,
Im glad I could ammuse you, but I cant see what was so funny. I read back through my posts...but I must be missing something?? Or are you just easily ammused? Please help me learn by pointing out what was fiction??
However your confidence in me being wrong must mean that you know what loads Jetstar is carrying? The 76 up to Japan were not always full...and the ones still operating are still not always full...the only good load is the one flight that is codeshare with JAL and all the punters have booked with JAL. Not QF.
Did some research for you, yesterday CNS-NGO was 230 and CNS-KIX 270. Your right I understand up in CNS that JQ dropped 2 services weekly but overall still offer more capacity than QF did as the aircraft has about 75 more seats on it.
So I guess my question is....if QF is doing so well to Japan...and demanding so much higher revenue...why are they not operating the route??
Or I am still making you laugh??
Cheers
Im glad I could ammuse you, but I cant see what was so funny. I read back through my posts...but I must be missing something?? Or are you just easily ammused? Please help me learn by pointing out what was fiction??
However your confidence in me being wrong must mean that you know what loads Jetstar is carrying? The 76 up to Japan were not always full...and the ones still operating are still not always full...the only good load is the one flight that is codeshare with JAL and all the punters have booked with JAL. Not QF.
Did some research for you, yesterday CNS-NGO was 230 and CNS-KIX 270. Your right I understand up in CNS that JQ dropped 2 services weekly but overall still offer more capacity than QF did as the aircraft has about 75 more seats on it.
So I guess my question is....if QF is doing so well to Japan...and demanding so much higher revenue...why are they not operating the route??
Or I am still making you laugh??
Cheers
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meguro,
when you fly inbound to Oz from overseas everyone has to collect their bags and recheck after customs, unless you get very lucky on select routes where there is a QF or JQ INT flight about to operate a domestic sector between 2 INT terminals. This is regardless of which airline you are planning to travel domestically.
Domestically is where it becomes a pain, where you can thru check with QF but not JQ (not sure on Virgin...Tiger definately not). As Henry said..you get what you pay for. Nothing more and hopefully nothing less.
Cheers
when you fly inbound to Oz from overseas everyone has to collect their bags and recheck after customs, unless you get very lucky on select routes where there is a QF or JQ INT flight about to operate a domestic sector between 2 INT terminals. This is regardless of which airline you are planning to travel domestically.
Domestically is where it becomes a pain, where you can thru check with QF but not JQ (not sure on Virgin...Tiger definately not). As Henry said..you get what you pay for. Nothing more and hopefully nothing less.
Cheers
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While this has nothing to do with the thread at hand, from what I can tell via holiday flights, the baggage sitation is this:
JQ Dom - no check-through to QF Dom
QF Dom - no check-through to JQ Dom
JQ Dom - no check-through to JQ Int
JQ Int - through check possible to JQ Int
JQ Int - through check possible to QF int (eg - HKT-SYD-AKL)
QF Dom - through check possible to JQ Int (eg - BNE-SYD-HNL)
QF Int - through check possible to JQ Int (eg - LHR-SIN-MEL-CHC)
JQ Int - through check possible to QF Dom, however all pax have to collect bags anyway, and clear customs as TMAK has said.
JQ Int - through check possible to other carriers (eg - Swiss, El Al, etc, MEL-BKK-TLV), or SYD-KIX-ZRH as long as your PNR is ticketed through with connecting sectors, and you stay in transit with -8 hour connection time.
Given the strict -30 cutoff for J* domestic, and the low cost limitations in which they operate, I would image the chaos and nightmare that would ensue should both QF group brands begin interlining baggage domestically ;-) (Which is why I'm guessing they DONT try)
JQ Dom - no check-through to QF Dom
QF Dom - no check-through to JQ Dom
JQ Dom - no check-through to JQ Int
JQ Int - through check possible to JQ Int
JQ Int - through check possible to QF int (eg - HKT-SYD-AKL)
QF Dom - through check possible to JQ Int (eg - BNE-SYD-HNL)
QF Int - through check possible to JQ Int (eg - LHR-SIN-MEL-CHC)
JQ Int - through check possible to QF Dom, however all pax have to collect bags anyway, and clear customs as TMAK has said.
JQ Int - through check possible to other carriers (eg - Swiss, El Al, etc, MEL-BKK-TLV), or SYD-KIX-ZRH as long as your PNR is ticketed through with connecting sectors, and you stay in transit with -8 hour connection time.
Given the strict -30 cutoff for J* domestic, and the low cost limitations in which they operate, I would image the chaos and nightmare that would ensue should both QF group brands begin interlining baggage domestically ;-) (Which is why I'm guessing they DONT try)
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On the 76 loads to KIX and NGO were consistently 229 pax.
pps. That means full load
pps. That means full load
(edit: 272, +/- 4; the exact number not really neccessary to make the point however)
Last edited by ftrplt; 24th Nov 2007 at 20:00.
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The JQ HNL services are being largely ignored by a large portion of the Australian market - ie: the professional surfers and the surf related manufacturing companies, whose executives and staff are generally well heeled and carrying boards.
You will often find that the QF 763s are full as a Primary School with the JQ services still loading at deep discounts.
Incompatibility with Global fares originating in the South West Pacific also has an effect.
The main reason they are avoiding JQ is the restrictive and blurred handling requirements of surf board coffins as part of the checked baggage, whereas the 2 piece system along with the extra allowance for Club Rat or Gold/Platinum FF members makes QF the only choice, along with the certainty of reaccommodation by flight interruption manifest or hotel if the aeroplane falls over.
Dropping the MEL service is logical as JQ can in theory uplift ex AVV to SYD and connect, feeding the SYD services.
That is of course if they allow it as a through connection which they do not from OOL - a stupid move seeing they offer through connections to ADL PER and BNE ignoring 2 core markets who are closest to AVV and OOL.
Even SYD originating traffic is avoiding them for the above reasons.
If Team Rat want to hold this market, the 743's would be better used there, as they will still fill them way ahead of a JQ 332.
My 2 bobs worth anyway.
Best all
EWL
You will often find that the QF 763s are full as a Primary School with the JQ services still loading at deep discounts.
Incompatibility with Global fares originating in the South West Pacific also has an effect.
The main reason they are avoiding JQ is the restrictive and blurred handling requirements of surf board coffins as part of the checked baggage, whereas the 2 piece system along with the extra allowance for Club Rat or Gold/Platinum FF members makes QF the only choice, along with the certainty of reaccommodation by flight interruption manifest or hotel if the aeroplane falls over.
Dropping the MEL service is logical as JQ can in theory uplift ex AVV to SYD and connect, feeding the SYD services.
That is of course if they allow it as a through connection which they do not from OOL - a stupid move seeing they offer through connections to ADL PER and BNE ignoring 2 core markets who are closest to AVV and OOL.
Even SYD originating traffic is avoiding them for the above reasons.
If Team Rat want to hold this market, the 743's would be better used there, as they will still fill them way ahead of a JQ 332.
My 2 bobs worth anyway.
Best all
EWL
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On what runs do JAL and Jet* compete again?!?!
I thought JAL no longer flew the KIX-Aussie run(BNE-SYD)...they codeshare on Jet*!!!
Jet* don't fly to NRT(yet).....NRT-BNE, NRT-SYD are the only runs JAL have down to Oz.
I thought JAL no longer flew the KIX-Aussie run(BNE-SYD)...they codeshare on Jet*!!!
Jet* don't fly to NRT(yet).....NRT-BNE, NRT-SYD are the only runs JAL have down to Oz.
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Announcement re:Cairns is the deployment of A321s on the MEL-CNS and MEL-OOL routes:
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html
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Hi Bankstown
The SYD OOL and MEL OOL markets are another 2 screaming for more mainline seats running flights at very high load factors. OOL HNL and return is a huge on all QF services as the fares are near common rate, as are OOL LAX and beyond including Oneworld fares.
Maybe the group should keep the A321's for other routes and give the punters what they want. The ones that want their Club Rat (like me) and like full service carriers. I even love my little Ratlink flight out of DPO.
Looking at a sole use airport to develop in the deeper South East of Melbourne would be a very good way to draw more traffic. Lots of disposable income out there - far more than in the Western suburbs (on average at least).
It does however look that quite a lot of the group fighting fund is being used in tooling JQ up to meet the SQ group incursion.
Interesting times cometh.
As long as Pilots are in shortish supply, then you good guys and girls may actually get the break you have long deserved and some better conditions.
Bring it awnnnnnn
After the brilliant night in LRE weekend before last at the Qantas Platinum Agents dinner, and the magnificent way the whole thing was handled, maybe mainline is also acknowleding their top resellers. I am still gobsmacked at LRE and the logistical operation many good QF Staff undertook on a voluntary basis and pulled of with the precision of a moon landing. Brilliant job all of you. You have proved to me that the Airline still has a strong heart.
Best all
EWL
The SYD OOL and MEL OOL markets are another 2 screaming for more mainline seats running flights at very high load factors. OOL HNL and return is a huge on all QF services as the fares are near common rate, as are OOL LAX and beyond including Oneworld fares.
Maybe the group should keep the A321's for other routes and give the punters what they want. The ones that want their Club Rat (like me) and like full service carriers. I even love my little Ratlink flight out of DPO.
Looking at a sole use airport to develop in the deeper South East of Melbourne would be a very good way to draw more traffic. Lots of disposable income out there - far more than in the Western suburbs (on average at least).
It does however look that quite a lot of the group fighting fund is being used in tooling JQ up to meet the SQ group incursion.
Interesting times cometh.
As long as Pilots are in shortish supply, then you good guys and girls may actually get the break you have long deserved and some better conditions.
Bring it awnnnnnn
After the brilliant night in LRE weekend before last at the Qantas Platinum Agents dinner, and the magnificent way the whole thing was handled, maybe mainline is also acknowleding their top resellers. I am still gobsmacked at LRE and the logistical operation many good QF Staff undertook on a voluntary basis and pulled of with the precision of a moon landing. Brilliant job all of you. You have proved to me that the Airline still has a strong heart.
Best all
EWL