Jet* and Japan..A Failure
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
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I am not amazed that onestar has hit a glass mountain with the Japanese market.
Back in the dim dark when F28's roamed the skies East West was big in the Japanese market. In our run-in to launching the product we put together a product which was similar to our previously bad news attempts and sent it to our ex TN man on the ground there. That from memory was Tad Terimoto but I stand for correction there.
He came back saying the product and brochure is great - but too cheap. Increase the price by 30% or the Japanese will not but it.
We did. It worked - and within 6 months we had in flight announcements in Japanese and English on the Queensland services ex Sydney. They loved us and the free champers. They just loved being acknowledged despite the premium fare and loaded package they were paying for. To the Jap market, perception is everything.
Price it cheap and it will be considered to be crap by the Japanese market. Maybe they have something there!!!!!!!
Jetstar and Japan should not apprear in the same sentence.
Wrong airline concept - wrong market. I know that - all wholesalers know that - where has the Mega Rat heirachy gone wrong? This is marketing 101.
Put mainline back across all ports and there may be a chance of holding their market. If not SQ will clean the floor with decent fares and full service over SIN. I cannot see it happening, but somewhere logic may prevail.
You can dress a whore in a lovely frock and introduce her to your Mum, but she will still slide off a bar stool despite your best intentions.
Best all
EWL
Back in the dim dark when F28's roamed the skies East West was big in the Japanese market. In our run-in to launching the product we put together a product which was similar to our previously bad news attempts and sent it to our ex TN man on the ground there. That from memory was Tad Terimoto but I stand for correction there.
He came back saying the product and brochure is great - but too cheap. Increase the price by 30% or the Japanese will not but it.
We did. It worked - and within 6 months we had in flight announcements in Japanese and English on the Queensland services ex Sydney. They loved us and the free champers. They just loved being acknowledged despite the premium fare and loaded package they were paying for. To the Jap market, perception is everything.
Price it cheap and it will be considered to be crap by the Japanese market. Maybe they have something there!!!!!!!
Jetstar and Japan should not apprear in the same sentence.
Wrong airline concept - wrong market. I know that - all wholesalers know that - where has the Mega Rat heirachy gone wrong? This is marketing 101.
Put mainline back across all ports and there may be a chance of holding their market. If not SQ will clean the floor with decent fares and full service over SIN. I cannot see it happening, but somewhere logic may prevail.
You can dress a whore in a lovely frock and introduce her to your Mum, but she will still slide off a bar stool despite your best intentions.
Best all
EWL
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Keg - That wet feeling in your pants is your so called 'senior' management sources pissing in your pocket. But you just keep on listening to them.
At the end of the day Money talks, bullcrap walks.
Unusual for you to get personal so early, bit sensitive on this one eh?
At the end of the day Money talks, bullcrap walks.
Unusual for you to get personal so early, bit sensitive on this one eh?
Join Date: Nov 2003
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My god you're all wasting your breath;
1) Jetstar will be crewed by Mainline. Full stop.
2) Jetstar will never go beyond 23 airframes.
3) Jetstar International will be a dismal failure.
4) Qantas is absorbing the costs of the abject mistake that was Jetstar.
5) Jetstar's Trans-Tasman loads are dismal - the route will close.
6) Jetstar's Japan loads are dismal - the routes will close.
7) Qantas upper-management is losing interest in Jetstar.
Seven consistent arguments made by many contributors over the last 4 years. All of them have either proved to be completely ill-informed dummy-spitting by those out-of-the-know who like to pretend that they're in it (1-3 & 5), or wanton speculation by those who would prefer such an outcome but can't actually support their opinions with facts (6 & 7).
In the case of point (4), of course Qantas is absorbing some of Jetstar's costs! It owns the bloody airline! It's as much an investment as it is a venture! Why wouldn't it help to support it? As for being an abject failure, perhaps the following quote will address that bit of conjecture. In fact, it should pretty well address all the other assertions as well;
" 68 A320/A321 aircraft, plus 40 options and purchase rights".
Not gloating. Just facts. In addition to the 31 B737-800 (plus 49 options) ordered for mainline (not to mention the B787, A330 & A380 orders), why don't we start looking at the glass as being half-full for a change and stop this insistent bleating about how the sky is falling in because it's taken on a lighter shade of orange?
You're pilots, not executives. If you really want to run the show go and get an MBA and run to Coward Street (or Bourke Street - up to you) at full-speed.
1) Jetstar will be crewed by Mainline. Full stop.
2) Jetstar will never go beyond 23 airframes.
3) Jetstar International will be a dismal failure.
4) Qantas is absorbing the costs of the abject mistake that was Jetstar.
5) Jetstar's Trans-Tasman loads are dismal - the route will close.
6) Jetstar's Japan loads are dismal - the routes will close.
7) Qantas upper-management is losing interest in Jetstar.
Seven consistent arguments made by many contributors over the last 4 years. All of them have either proved to be completely ill-informed dummy-spitting by those out-of-the-know who like to pretend that they're in it (1-3 & 5), or wanton speculation by those who would prefer such an outcome but can't actually support their opinions with facts (6 & 7).
In the case of point (4), of course Qantas is absorbing some of Jetstar's costs! It owns the bloody airline! It's as much an investment as it is a venture! Why wouldn't it help to support it? As for being an abject failure, perhaps the following quote will address that bit of conjecture. In fact, it should pretty well address all the other assertions as well;
" 68 A320/A321 aircraft, plus 40 options and purchase rights".
Not gloating. Just facts. In addition to the 31 B737-800 (plus 49 options) ordered for mainline (not to mention the B787, A330 & A380 orders), why don't we start looking at the glass as being half-full for a change and stop this insistent bleating about how the sky is falling in because it's taken on a lighter shade of orange?
You're pilots, not executives. If you really want to run the show go and get an MBA and run to Coward Street (or Bourke Street - up to you) at full-speed.
East West you're right,
The Japanese culture holds value in the quality of a product. They are almost proud when they state they've bought something expensive because generally higher prices equate to higher quality.
The Japanese culture holds value in the quality of a product. They are almost proud when they state they've bought something expensive because generally higher prices equate to higher quality.
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Jet*'s Future
No One questions that the illegitimate child of Dixon's is here to stay.
This thread is about its presence and success in Japan.
The market is lagely misunderstood by both mainline and Jet*management.
The attitude is "we will educate them"
Even worse it is totally misunderstood by Australian Tourism in general.
There is money to be made in Japan but some research needs to be done.
SingAir and Cathay have a handle on it....as does JAL(obviously)
If QF doesnt pull its finger out Japan will disappear from the network .
I travel to Japan frequently outside of work.
The QF product compared to JAL or Sing Air is rubbish.
I refuse to fly Jet* to Osaka and usually fly to SIN or HKG and then transit.
It saves time and money on buses trains and internal Japanese flights.
There are a lot of Aussies like me who do the same and dont fly Qantas
This thread is about its presence and success in Japan.
The market is lagely misunderstood by both mainline and Jet*management.
The attitude is "we will educate them"
Even worse it is totally misunderstood by Australian Tourism in general.
There is money to be made in Japan but some research needs to be done.
SingAir and Cathay have a handle on it....as does JAL(obviously)
If QF doesnt pull its finger out Japan will disappear from the network .
I travel to Japan frequently outside of work.
The QF product compared to JAL or Sing Air is rubbish.
I refuse to fly Jet* to Osaka and usually fly to SIN or HKG and then transit.
It saves time and money on buses trains and internal Japanese flights.
There are a lot of Aussies like me who do the same and dont fly Qantas
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Mainline CNS/NRT BP255
A number of patterns in BP255 have mainline crews and aircraft transitting CNS both north and south to NRT.
These transits are from flights originating in both MEL and SYD
These transits are from flights originating in both MEL and SYD
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Jetstar
Narita is not the issue as the flights are operated by QF. The Osaka/ Nagoya flights are operated by JQI. The passenger loads are miserable given the capacity of a A330.. The JQI service to SIN via DRW is similarly unpopular. The Japanese would not buy a fake Rolex nor will they buy tickets on a fake airline.
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Tropicalchief,
your dislike of JQ and lack of facts are apparent yet again. JQI is currently carrying more pax to NGO/KIX than the QF 767 can muster at full load...and operates the route for less. Hence profit or no profit the nett result is better for the group.
Just how long before a big silver jet begins NRT?? I would guess (if I was a betting person...which Im not) that the answer is very similar to 'when do 787 start arriving'???
For Japanses groups doing a 3-4 day tour to CNS, SQ or MH etc is not an option...much longer flight time and cuts into half the trip...not a threat. Why do all the experts out there refuse to accept the damage is being done by the strong Oz dollar?? Aust is a high cost destination for Japanese at the moment. In time that will change Im sure.
As for DRW/SIN that is not operated by JQI, it is operated by 3K (Jetstar Asia) until end of Jan, then I hear a JQ A320 takes on the run. Assume it will be an extra a/c based up there in the far north.
Cheers
your dislike of JQ and lack of facts are apparent yet again. JQI is currently carrying more pax to NGO/KIX than the QF 767 can muster at full load...and operates the route for less. Hence profit or no profit the nett result is better for the group.
Just how long before a big silver jet begins NRT?? I would guess (if I was a betting person...which Im not) that the answer is very similar to 'when do 787 start arriving'???
For Japanses groups doing a 3-4 day tour to CNS, SQ or MH etc is not an option...much longer flight time and cuts into half the trip...not a threat. Why do all the experts out there refuse to accept the damage is being done by the strong Oz dollar?? Aust is a high cost destination for Japanese at the moment. In time that will change Im sure.
As for DRW/SIN that is not operated by JQI, it is operated by 3K (Jetstar Asia) until end of Jan, then I hear a JQ A320 takes on the run. Assume it will be an extra a/c based up there in the far north.
Cheers
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TMAK
I am not sure where you get your input on the Japanese psyche from, but if a product to Oz is perceived as cheap and nasty the they go to Hawaii, Las Vegas, New Zealand, Micronesia - wherever.
You are right that the SQ and MH "via" products do not interest the "few days off" traveller.
However if something is underpriced and treats its victims like bacteria if an aeroplane falls over it will lose clientelle both ends - at the coal face where it is sold and also after one bad experience and by word of mouth.
A pig in a floral creton frock in a yiddish market is still after all a pig.
The Aussie dollar is indeed reducing spending ability but not on the airfares as such. The fares are set in Yen ex Japan and at a comparitively high level when compared to the reverse journey. It is just the on ground spend that is in question, and most of the group tours pump their little charges into company owned stores and tell them the rest of us are evil and not to be dealt with.
The Jap market is paying way above what they should for what they get and will continue to do so. They will fly with JAL rather than onestar or go to Okinawa instead.
Best all
EWL
I am not sure where you get your input on the Japanese psyche from, but if a product to Oz is perceived as cheap and nasty the they go to Hawaii, Las Vegas, New Zealand, Micronesia - wherever.
You are right that the SQ and MH "via" products do not interest the "few days off" traveller.
However if something is underpriced and treats its victims like bacteria if an aeroplane falls over it will lose clientelle both ends - at the coal face where it is sold and also after one bad experience and by word of mouth.
A pig in a floral creton frock in a yiddish market is still after all a pig.
The Aussie dollar is indeed reducing spending ability but not on the airfares as such. The fares are set in Yen ex Japan and at a comparitively high level when compared to the reverse journey. It is just the on ground spend that is in question, and most of the group tours pump their little charges into company owned stores and tell them the rest of us are evil and not to be dealt with.
The Jap market is paying way above what they should for what they get and will continue to do so. They will fly with JAL rather than onestar or go to Okinawa instead.
Best all
EWL
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EWL,
agree on issues of inferior service, that applies everywhere in the world not just Japan.
But do you really think there is sizeable difference in product & service between JQI and the American carriers serving Japan-HNL market?
The other destinations you mention are also 'cheap' now compared to Australia. Maybe the Japanese market (especially the younger generation) are not as fickle. But agree many still are.
Keeping in mind these companies are running a business here and not a public transport service, a market like CNS is not that viable for most. Up there in CNS they have lost JAL, SQ, MH, GA and prob more Im not aware of over the past 5-10 years. And QF has dropped most of its routes due cost (some hidden as codeshares i.e HKG with CX). Years back when working in CNS I know the cargo market really sustained CX (the only noteable foreign carrier operating there regularly year round) and I am guessing cargo still drives it, as I note from schedule online still shares flights with BNE.
If the Japanese want to fly JAL's 20 year old 747 instead of brand new A330 I guess that is their choice. But if they want to come to Australia they have limited flights. So if the market was there for Aust, why is JAL no longer flying to BNE, CNS etc?? If the market was there and they are prepared to pay, then they would be flying to routes. Wouldnt they?
Have a good weekend.
Cheers
agree on issues of inferior service, that applies everywhere in the world not just Japan.
But do you really think there is sizeable difference in product & service between JQI and the American carriers serving Japan-HNL market?
The other destinations you mention are also 'cheap' now compared to Australia. Maybe the Japanese market (especially the younger generation) are not as fickle. But agree many still are.
Keeping in mind these companies are running a business here and not a public transport service, a market like CNS is not that viable for most. Up there in CNS they have lost JAL, SQ, MH, GA and prob more Im not aware of over the past 5-10 years. And QF has dropped most of its routes due cost (some hidden as codeshares i.e HKG with CX). Years back when working in CNS I know the cargo market really sustained CX (the only noteable foreign carrier operating there regularly year round) and I am guessing cargo still drives it, as I note from schedule online still shares flights with BNE.
If the Japanese want to fly JAL's 20 year old 747 instead of brand new A330 I guess that is their choice. But if they want to come to Australia they have limited flights. So if the market was there for Aust, why is JAL no longer flying to BNE, CNS etc?? If the market was there and they are prepared to pay, then they would be flying to routes. Wouldnt they?
Have a good weekend.
Cheers
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I will indeed have a good weekend TMAK and hope you have the same.
I will be flying into BNE on QF and then on a chartered Q400 into LRE with other Qantas Platinum Agents for the annual dinner, the on Sunday from LRE to SYD on another charter - a 734.
Should be a heap of fun. So look out stars - if you are crewing those flights you will have the Loco Bloko on board.
As for the Jap market, you are correct in saying it is a thinnish route - however if any service failure occurs then face is lost and so is further load factor. The JQ mindset of "no plane - go away until we have one - no compensation or flight interruption manifest protection" will not wash.
Japan is a very specific market - more so than even the whineing septics.
I guess at least they in general fit the seat pitch OK.
Best regards
EWL
I will be flying into BNE on QF and then on a chartered Q400 into LRE with other Qantas Platinum Agents for the annual dinner, the on Sunday from LRE to SYD on another charter - a 734.
Should be a heap of fun. So look out stars - if you are crewing those flights you will have the Loco Bloko on board.
As for the Jap market, you are correct in saying it is a thinnish route - however if any service failure occurs then face is lost and so is further load factor. The JQ mindset of "no plane - go away until we have one - no compensation or flight interruption manifest protection" will not wash.
Japan is a very specific market - more so than even the whineing septics.
I guess at least they in general fit the seat pitch OK.
Best regards
EWL
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Guess I was resboy.
I am larger than the average bear, so that may have been unfair - have flown QF 332's when they first came in. Enjoyed the standard Airbus 2-4-2 config but found legroom a little under par.
Guess I have been spoiled by the legroom in the Dash 100/200 and 300 equipment out of here - particularly in row 4 on the 1's and 2's.
Best regards
EWL
I am larger than the average bear, so that may have been unfair - have flown QF 332's when they first came in. Enjoyed the standard Airbus 2-4-2 config but found legroom a little under par.
Guess I have been spoiled by the legroom in the Dash 100/200 and 300 equipment out of here - particularly in row 4 on the 1's and 2's.
Best regards
EWL
TMAK
I reckon you'd lose your dough on that bet TMAK.
Word is the NIPPON Govt doesn't look too favourably on swapping slots in NRT.
All the favouritism given to Geoffs bastard child counts for diddley squat in the land of the rising sun
The Flying Roo will be servicing NRT NOT 1*
Just how long before a big silver jet begins NRT?? I would guess (if I was a betting person...which Im not) that the answer is very similar to 'when do 787 start arriving'???
Word is the NIPPON Govt doesn't look too favourably on swapping slots in NRT.
All the favouritism given to Geoffs bastard child counts for diddley squat in the land of the rising sun
The Flying Roo will be servicing NRT NOT 1*
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If the J* "product" is so appealing, then as an "investment" it would show a rate of return...
Details ARE ALWAYS so scant, no meaningful comparison of its CONTRIBUTION MARGIN be made.
The really sad part of the strategy is that it dilutes yield and hence profit. Persuing a low yield strategy forsakes potential revenues. Concentrating so hard on cost at the expense of all else (including mainline investment) is perpetuating the continued decline, ableit incrementally of a once great airline.
Even sadder the architects of this strategy deny it, get rich from it despite increasing amounts of evidence (as in Japan, NHL-MEL) that it simply doens't work!
Details ARE ALWAYS so scant, no meaningful comparison of its CONTRIBUTION MARGIN be made.
The really sad part of the strategy is that it dilutes yield and hence profit. Persuing a low yield strategy forsakes potential revenues. Concentrating so hard on cost at the expense of all else (including mainline investment) is perpetuating the continued decline, ableit incrementally of a once great airline.
Even sadder the architects of this strategy deny it, get rich from it despite increasing amounts of evidence (as in Japan, NHL-MEL) that it simply doens't work!