Jet* and Japan..A Failure
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Travelling Subload
Jet Star Reservations:"you want to go to Japan?Sure.When and where.We are wide open.
Full loads Huh ?
When NGO goes from the network print a retraction here on PPruNe Kavorka
Full loads Huh ?
When NGO goes from the network print a retraction here on PPruNe Kavorka
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Short Circuit
Regarding "your" ten year plan.
Can you explain why then, are Qantas mainline employing 500 pilots over the next 3 years only to make such employees redundant? Why bother with all the unnessary training costs?
Can you elaborate on the Jetstar plan to avoid the same fate as that happening to REX? The pilot shortage will not only be limited to Regional operators.
Why are cadets being placed at Qantas mainline & Qantas Link & not Jetstar Domestic or International and why is the mainline cadetship expanding?
Do you believe that a new QF CEO will embrace the two airline strategy to the same extent as GD?
Regarding "your" ten year plan.
Can you explain why then, are Qantas mainline employing 500 pilots over the next 3 years only to make such employees redundant? Why bother with all the unnessary training costs?
Can you elaborate on the Jetstar plan to avoid the same fate as that happening to REX? The pilot shortage will not only be limited to Regional operators.
Why are cadets being placed at Qantas mainline & Qantas Link & not Jetstar Domestic or International and why is the mainline cadetship expanding?
Do you believe that a new QF CEO will embrace the two airline strategy to the same extent as GD?
Ace, not disagreeing that the Japanese market is based on prestige or that Jetstar is not perceived as a prestige carrier. At no point do they make that claim, and I did not insinuate that they were. I was merely pointing out that you were incorrect in your claim that they do not offer agents anything because it was factually incorrect.
I think the segment which Jetstar will target and eventually find success in is the younger Japanese market. Society in Japan has changed a lot and the youth of that market are becoming a lot more Wedst-centric and have now taken on leisure travel more like backpacking etc. If Jetstar can offer these people low fares to Australia then it will have a captive market. It won't happen overnight but it will probably will happen.
I think the segment which Jetstar will target and eventually find success in is the younger Japanese market. Society in Japan has changed a lot and the youth of that market are becoming a lot more Wedst-centric and have now taken on leisure travel more like backpacking etc. If Jetstar can offer these people low fares to Australia then it will have a captive market. It won't happen overnight but it will probably will happen.
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"Can you explain why then, are Qantas mainline employing 500 pilots over the next 3 years only to make such employees redundant? Why bother with all the unnessary training costs?"
Have you guys not yet figured out the obvious.
QF can attract applicants to the mainline operation with relative ease compared to the lower paying Jetstar but there is nothing preventing them from forcing mainline pilots across to operate on Jetstar terms.
QF will utilize the alterations to IR laws to give mainline pilots a choice, take a seat in an orange aircraft or dont let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. It will be the easiest way to rationalize the highly inefficient cockpit crew at QF without industrial action.
As the detailed analysis of the APA bid stated, there is substantial value in the Jetstar model.
Jetstar will be the growth engine.
Have you guys not yet figured out the obvious.
QF can attract applicants to the mainline operation with relative ease compared to the lower paying Jetstar but there is nothing preventing them from forcing mainline pilots across to operate on Jetstar terms.
QF will utilize the alterations to IR laws to give mainline pilots a choice, take a seat in an orange aircraft or dont let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. It will be the easiest way to rationalize the highly inefficient cockpit crew at QF without industrial action.
As the detailed analysis of the APA bid stated, there is substantial value in the Jetstar model.
Jetstar will be the growth engine.
Spot on Professor,
Qantas mainline does not have a requirement for 500 Pilots over the next 3 years. - it's the wider "Qantas Group" that needs to recruit in large numbers.
New aircraft deliveries are mostly replacements for existing mainline aircraft; there is very minimal growth of the mainline business.
I hope no one actually bought Dixon's line that "every mainline pilot will have an opportunity to upgrade in the next 5yrs". For these upgrade opportunities to exist in mainline, the airline would have to double in size.
Instead, the mainline product is languishing as all efforts are devoted to Jetstar, which is clearly where these career opportunities lie.
Qantas mainline does not have a requirement for 500 Pilots over the next 3 years. - it's the wider "Qantas Group" that needs to recruit in large numbers.
New aircraft deliveries are mostly replacements for existing mainline aircraft; there is very minimal growth of the mainline business.
I hope no one actually bought Dixon's line that "every mainline pilot will have an opportunity to upgrade in the next 5yrs". For these upgrade opportunities to exist in mainline, the airline would have to double in size.
Instead, the mainline product is languishing as all efforts are devoted to Jetstar, which is clearly where these career opportunities lie.
Last edited by Veruka Salt; 12th Nov 2007 at 02:56.
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Back to the issue.
Is it Jetstar or is it:
1. Over 100yen to the dollar
2. Japanese package rip-offs - over inflated accom costs, Japanese owned tour operators and agents in Cairns, Japanese owned "shopping" tours in Cairns.
Perhaps the humble Japanese tourist is waking up to these rip-offs and going elsewhere!
As for the QF/J* debate, remember that QF has given poor service to the Japanese market for years. Old equipment (747 classics) and the failure of the all economy Australian Airlines has seen this market in decline for years.
Can J* turn it around? Unlikely!
Is it Jetstar or is it:
1. Over 100yen to the dollar
2. Japanese package rip-offs - over inflated accom costs, Japanese owned tour operators and agents in Cairns, Japanese owned "shopping" tours in Cairns.
Perhaps the humble Japanese tourist is waking up to these rip-offs and going elsewhere!
As for the QF/J* debate, remember that QF has given poor service to the Japanese market for years. Old equipment (747 classics) and the failure of the all economy Australian Airlines has seen this market in decline for years.
Can J* turn it around? Unlikely!
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The more things change the more they stay the same. Qantas and JQ are so arrogant they are incapable of learning lessons from the past. (In JQ's case this also applies to safety, but that is another thread)
The Original source of the data below is the Australian Bureau of Statistics, via Tourism Australia. It is circa 2000.
The Original source of the data below is the Australian Bureau of Statistics, via Tourism Australia. It is circa 2000.
For most Japanese, because of the language difficulty (most Japanese cannot speak English) and the tendency to be fond of full service, a package tour is the most common way to travel overseas. Normally everything is arranged: transport, accommodation, sight seeing, meals and a Japanese tour guide.
When the Japanese economy went into recession in 1996, the tourist market changed, but the Australian tourism industry has been very slow to react. Prior to 1996 most Japanese booked their airfare, accommodation and tours at the same time in Japan. At that time money was not the major issue, it was a convenient way to arrange a holiday.
With the recession, the Japanese tourist became more selective with their money. No longer were they willing to accept the fixed terms and high mark-ups of package tours.
By the year 2000 another important factor had arrived on the market, the Internet. Now the Japanese tourist could research their overseas holiday in detail before they left. They could compare the prices and options they were being offered through the package tours to those available in the local market. It is at this point that the Australian tourism market missed the opportunity to take advantage of the change in the market. Today there is relatively little information in Japanese about tourism destinations, tours and accommodation on web.
When the Japanese economy went into recession in 1996, the tourist market changed, but the Australian tourism industry has been very slow to react. Prior to 1996 most Japanese booked their airfare, accommodation and tours at the same time in Japan. At that time money was not the major issue, it was a convenient way to arrange a holiday.
With the recession, the Japanese tourist became more selective with their money. No longer were they willing to accept the fixed terms and high mark-ups of package tours.
By the year 2000 another important factor had arrived on the market, the Internet. Now the Japanese tourist could research their overseas holiday in detail before they left. They could compare the prices and options they were being offered through the package tours to those available in the local market. It is at this point that the Australian tourism market missed the opportunity to take advantage of the change in the market. Today there is relatively little information in Japanese about tourism destinations, tours and accommodation on web.
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Professor
So let me get this right, Jet* will be needing crews to cater for growth or parking aircraft. They tell the QF guys see you later, or go drive an orange coloured aircraft. QF guys decline, cause they know Jet* are needing crew & that better T & C are available elsewhere.
Isn't that the reality of the situation?
So let me get this right, Jet* will be needing crews to cater for growth or parking aircraft. They tell the QF guys see you later, or go drive an orange coloured aircraft. QF guys decline, cause they know Jet* are needing crew & that better T & C are available elsewhere.
Isn't that the reality of the situation?
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Nagoya?
There are few reference made in this thread re JQ pulling out of Nagoya.
Where has this info/rumour come from?
Can anyone confirm or is it pure speculation about JQ again?
Where has this info/rumour come from?
Can anyone confirm or is it pure speculation about JQ again?
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Another point is that Jet* simply is not cheaper than other airlines, yes there are occasional cheapies but your still looking at around 1500-1700 return on Jet*. Malaysian and Korean, Thai and China Airlines etc. beat them hands down almost everytime, and it gives Japanese an opportunity to stop off in one of these countries on the way which are gaining popularity in the Japanese market.
Combined with this QF have treated the market badly in the past decade as another poster alluded to(the oldest crappiest equipment), then pulled out of everywhere except Tokyo to put in this new entity Australian which was then pulled and now Jet* comes in. Everyone in Japan knows the Qantas brands but the last 2 have completely confused them they don't know where they stand.
I know a few locals in the Japanese travel market and while everyone's $hit stinks Jet* is definitely in the rapidly gaining hate market for Japanese travellers.
I have predicted this around 6 months or more ago, and it is unfolding exactly as expected. Jet* is bleeding on the Japanese routes, maybe they will justify it to take over the Narita run, but if they do they will stuff the whole market.
Combined with this QF have treated the market badly in the past decade as another poster alluded to(the oldest crappiest equipment), then pulled out of everywhere except Tokyo to put in this new entity Australian which was then pulled and now Jet* comes in. Everyone in Japan knows the Qantas brands but the last 2 have completely confused them they don't know where they stand.
I know a few locals in the Japanese travel market and while everyone's $hit stinks Jet* is definitely in the rapidly gaining hate market for Japanese travellers.
I have predicted this around 6 months or more ago, and it is unfolding exactly as expected. Jet* is bleeding on the Japanese routes, maybe they will justify it to take over the Narita run, but if they do they will stuff the whole market.
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No-one has said that JQI are pulling out of NGO. However, they have just dropped a service ex CNS now making it 4x weekly compared to daily and sometimes double daily that AO once flew.
Also many JQI ex CNS to NGO and KIX are operating as a triangular service which confirms loads are bad.
Also, AO never had bad loads on Japan. Always full. Except during SARS.
Also many JQI ex CNS to NGO and KIX are operating as a triangular service which confirms loads are bad.
Also, AO never had bad loads on Japan. Always full. Except during SARS.
Also, AO never had bad loads on Japan. Always full. Except during SARS
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Jqi Ngo
My wife was on the NGO flight the other day...Surrounded by ex-pat Japanese, all taking advantage of the thirty something dollar airfares to get back to Japan. The missus said the service was near non-existant. She will pobably go to NGO via Guam from now on, just as many others are doing now. Perhaps if QF had a once weekly service to NGO/KIX it would make things all better... NGO is becoming a "New Money" hub in Japan, with companies taking advantage of its central loation, and the flow on in wealth to the local population. The ex-pat Aussies in NGO/KIX tolerated AO, but they mostly go with CX or SQ now.
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Jetstar Cairns-Japan
Jetstar averages around 100 pax per flight into Cairns from Osaka/Nagoya. When AO operated the flights average load was around 200. As I have mentioned on several occasions, the Japanese will not cop Jetstar. When AO was operating an average of about 1000 pax arrived per day on 4 flights from Japan (2 operated by QF) and 1 from SIN. That number is down to 600 arrivals per day. The Narita flights operated by QF are always well patronised, the others operated by Jetstar, from my observations, are a disaster.
the number of times we hear the J* flights to Japan climb straight to FL380 / FL400 departing Cairns would indicate poor loads....Just think of the fuel they're saving compared to the QF/AO services though
