730 Report on Pilot Training.
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quote "Will there be enough "hardcores" to keep GA alive"
I think you will always find there are some that want nothing to do with the airlines & think GA is great but realistically if there is going to be any increase in pilots in GA it isn't going to come from a young 18 year old straight out of school.
I think the industry needs to look at older people say 25 and older who are starting in aviation as they are more likely to stay in GA having different life experiences they are certain to know life isn't all rosey in an airline!
I think you will always find there are some that want nothing to do with the airlines & think GA is great but realistically if there is going to be any increase in pilots in GA it isn't going to come from a young 18 year old straight out of school.
I think the industry needs to look at older people say 25 and older who are starting in aviation as they are more likely to stay in GA having different life experiences they are certain to know life isn't all rosey in an airline!
I think the industry needs to look at older people say 25 and older who are starting in aviation as they are more likely to stay in GA having different life experiences they are certain to know life isn't all rosey in an airline!
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Real bush pilots
Real bush pilots will be doing those jobs, and doing them better.
The flood of city pilots only came because the flying schools persuaded far too many pilots to get CPL's and they could not find work in the city. But the flying schools killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
It's much the same as the tax concessions that resulted in lots of wealthy hobbyists setting up charter companies, and getting into something they knew nothing about and did not care about. They just wanted to dodge tax.
These things do not result in a stable industry.
It's like alcohol. It makes things look rosy for a while, but when the effect wears off the problems are still there.
And in the future (starting now) the goose will be taking many of the golden eggs to whoever has got a good simulator. It seems that will be big overseas based companies, and the airlines.
The flood of city pilots only came because the flying schools persuaded far too many pilots to get CPL's and they could not find work in the city. But the flying schools killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
It's much the same as the tax concessions that resulted in lots of wealthy hobbyists setting up charter companies, and getting into something they knew nothing about and did not care about. They just wanted to dodge tax.
These things do not result in a stable industry.
It's like alcohol. It makes things look rosy for a while, but when the effect wears off the problems are still there.
And in the future (starting now) the goose will be taking many of the golden eggs to whoever has got a good simulator. It seems that will be big overseas based companies, and the airlines.
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My two bobs worth.
What about Captaincy skills?
In Command Under Supervision has its place but is no substitute for In Command with no one covering your ass. It would appear the first time an MPL is actually in command will be on his first captain trip with 100+ pax on board. Only then will they find out what sort of captain he is without the check and trainers watching him.
Was a bit pissed that "former RAAF commander" was used to give someone credibility and give the impression that they were a RAAF pilot.
P.S. Insert Him/Her as required for equity reasons.
What about Captaincy skills?
In Command Under Supervision has its place but is no substitute for In Command with no one covering your ass. It would appear the first time an MPL is actually in command will be on his first captain trip with 100+ pax on board. Only then will they find out what sort of captain he is without the check and trainers watching him.
Was a bit pissed that "former RAAF commander" was used to give someone credibility and give the impression that they were a RAAF pilot.
P.S. Insert Him/Her as required for equity reasons.
Sprucegoose
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I would dispute that theory. Have seen numerous people go through GA very quickly by playing the age card. Letting it be known that they are only interested in GA as a result get quick progression and they are off to an airline or RFDS.
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I think sims are great, who has'nt had the pucker factor on a LOFT or a PC ??
If you treat the sim like it does'nt really matter if you prang it, to quote a famous naval aviator " you guys are dangerous "
Having said that, and as has been already mentioned numerous times, the sim cant teach you good old seat of the pants, scare the crap out of yourself, I'll never do that again decision making.
I'll bet you the mentioned times of 190-200 hours will not be sim time, who the hell is going to pay for that at around a grand an hour
More like 50, tops. ( betcha it will be little more than we already do for a type rating, cheap cheap )
Lets not forget what this is all about, an attempt by the airlines to circumvent the pilot shortage that is developing, by creating their own pilots ( Frankenpilot ?? ), rather than paying a decent wage and attracting, or keeping the ones they've already got.
With good old CASA in their back pocket...........pathetic
If you treat the sim like it does'nt really matter if you prang it, to quote a famous naval aviator " you guys are dangerous "
Having said that, and as has been already mentioned numerous times, the sim cant teach you good old seat of the pants, scare the crap out of yourself, I'll never do that again decision making.
I'll bet you the mentioned times of 190-200 hours will not be sim time, who the hell is going to pay for that at around a grand an hour
More like 50, tops. ( betcha it will be little more than we already do for a type rating, cheap cheap )
Lets not forget what this is all about, an attempt by the airlines to circumvent the pilot shortage that is developing, by creating their own pilots ( Frankenpilot ?? ), rather than paying a decent wage and attracting, or keeping the ones they've already got.
With good old CASA in their back pocket...........pathetic
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Krock O'Krappe
If ever there was a Krock O'Krap in the business, this is one.
The enthusiasm with which the candidates will embrace this is going to be irrepressible. Fewer checks, learning to fly a sim by rote, palsy walsy instructors.
When this comes to pass, I want to see the licence and medical certificates of the pilots (hopefully there will be one), when I get on board the machine. If one has a MPL, I'm off - and so is the family.
Hard to comprehend these so called authorities are going for this - clearly the el cheepo airlines we now have - Dick gets closer to his goal - affordable safety.
The enthusiasm with which the candidates will embrace this is going to be irrepressible. Fewer checks, learning to fly a sim by rote, palsy walsy instructors.
When this comes to pass, I want to see the licence and medical certificates of the pilots (hopefully there will be one), when I get on board the machine. If one has a MPL, I'm off - and so is the family.
Hard to comprehend these so called authorities are going for this - clearly the el cheepo airlines we now have - Dick gets closer to his goal - affordable safety.
I cant wear this MPL thing either. As a skipper, the MPL is working under your licence. Would you let them TO or LD in anything other than CAVOK L/V. If not, how are they to gain experience, to learn basic stick and rudder, navigation and weather skills and of course decision making. Oh thats right........GA.
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Let's not forget what this is all about, an attempt by the airlines to circumvent the pilot shortage that is developing, by creating their own pilots
... and I agree with the comment that the sim time these trainees will get be an absolute minimum, and will almost certainly reduce to an even lesser number of hours when the airlines scream about the cost.
Gents, (and gentesses), we're a bit like old salt mariners in the dying days of sail, bemoaning the fact that the new breed of 'sailors' operating the new-fabgled coal-fired steamers don't have the necessary skills to operate a 'real' ship.
I can assure that certainly the way the bean counters see us.
If this simulator training is thought to be the all-singing, all-dancing answer to pilot training for airline pilots, surely it would be equally applicable to other areas as well?
How about car and motorcycle training to be done on simulators with automatic licence grant on successful completion of the course? I am sure you don't need experience in actually driving a real car, truck or motorcycle to be safely set free on the streets of Australia?
This could also be extended to heavy truck and construction machinery licences. Think how much money and time could be saved.
How about simulator training for becoming a Member of Parliament? You could watch say 100 hours of televised House of Representatives with a sprinkle of senate proceedings for the upgrade licence. That could be enhanced with slagging off at interactive simulated opposition members. When you had finished the structured course you would be admissible to the highest echelons of Government.
At least you would probably have had more training than some of the d!ckheads that are authorising this ridiculous and dangerous "science-experiment" called the MPL licence.
How about car and motorcycle training to be done on simulators with automatic licence grant on successful completion of the course? I am sure you don't need experience in actually driving a real car, truck or motorcycle to be safely set free on the streets of Australia?
This could also be extended to heavy truck and construction machinery licences. Think how much money and time could be saved.
How about simulator training for becoming a Member of Parliament? You could watch say 100 hours of televised House of Representatives with a sprinkle of senate proceedings for the upgrade licence. That could be enhanced with slagging off at interactive simulated opposition members. When you had finished the structured course you would be admissible to the highest echelons of Government.
At least you would probably have had more training than some of the d!ckheads that are authorising this ridiculous and dangerous "science-experiment" called the MPL licence.
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Hi chaps.
I'm wondering if everyone who is making money out of this MPL has told travelers that a 10 hour(on a/c) pilot will be landing if the Capt. becomes incapasitated.It must be the first "let's remove redundancy"scenario I've ever heard of.
Yeah that will solve the shortage.
I wonder who proposed this idea,must have been an Airline boss.
I'm wondering if everyone who is making money out of this MPL has told travelers that a 10 hour(on a/c) pilot will be landing if the Capt. becomes incapasitated.It must be the first "let's remove redundancy"scenario I've ever heard of.
Yeah that will solve the shortage.I wonder who proposed this idea,must have been an Airline boss.
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I cringed when i heard Cameron say "competency based training" as though that was a good thing. That is another topic in itself
Simulators are too one dimensional in that they replicate Weather and visuals and Systems failures, but the Don't PROVIDE EXPERIENCE with the REAL world. EG, Language problems, Radio problems, the thousands of little swiss cheese events that one encounters and mitigates every day on the line.
For my money the Multi crew licence is an accident waiting to happen by placing far too much emphasis on the Captain to manage it all.
Simulators are too one dimensional in that they replicate Weather and visuals and Systems failures, but the Don't PROVIDE EXPERIENCE with the REAL world. EG, Language problems, Radio problems, the thousands of little swiss cheese events that one encounters and mitigates every day on the line.
For my money the Multi crew licence is an accident waiting to happen by placing far too much emphasis on the Captain to manage it all.
Lord Flashhart,
To the point and true!
As Wiley said, this process is being driven by bean counters in an effort to avoid parking aircraft. Well I'm afraid to date they haven't been particularily sucessful.
DJ are still cancelling up to 30 flights a week due lack of crew. REX cancelled 8 flights last Sunday and 11 or so the week before. All due to lack of crew. This trend will not only continue but will become appreciably worse as the major players move ahead with their planned expansions. Hell, even REX has expansion ambitions, and they can't even crew their existing flights!
So in true bean-counter tradition, lets put in a scheme that will see the market flooded with low-time and ultimately lower valued pilots. We can pay them less, as they will have limited options, and we can retain them by locking them into contracts for the privilege. They'll generally be young and niave, so we can manipulate them pretty much the way we want.
I have said this before. The profession of pilot has been in decline in this country for years, simply because the effort and financial outlay nowhere near matches the evential outcome. You will not reverse this crisis overnight.
The wholesale increase in wages and conditions across the industry will not solve the problem overnight either. It is fundamental however to the recovery and sustainability of all aspects of Australian aviation into the future. If you pay them, they will come.
In the current climate, unless perhaps we are talking about Qantas, Cadetships and/or the MPL will fail because of the above reasons. Some people are gullible, but I doubt they are out there in the numbers required?
To the point and true!
As Wiley said, this process is being driven by bean counters in an effort to avoid parking aircraft. Well I'm afraid to date they haven't been particularily sucessful.
DJ are still cancelling up to 30 flights a week due lack of crew. REX cancelled 8 flights last Sunday and 11 or so the week before. All due to lack of crew. This trend will not only continue but will become appreciably worse as the major players move ahead with their planned expansions. Hell, even REX has expansion ambitions, and they can't even crew their existing flights!
So in true bean-counter tradition, lets put in a scheme that will see the market flooded with low-time and ultimately lower valued pilots. We can pay them less, as they will have limited options, and we can retain them by locking them into contracts for the privilege. They'll generally be young and niave, so we can manipulate them pretty much the way we want.
I have said this before. The profession of pilot has been in decline in this country for years, simply because the effort and financial outlay nowhere near matches the evential outcome. You will not reverse this crisis overnight.
The wholesale increase in wages and conditions across the industry will not solve the problem overnight either. It is fundamental however to the recovery and sustainability of all aspects of Australian aviation into the future. If you pay them, they will come.
In the current climate, unless perhaps we are talking about Qantas, Cadetships and/or the MPL will fail because of the above reasons. Some people are gullible, but I doubt they are out there in the numbers required?
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For the skippers out there, remember that you are still responsible for the flight operation, your job is going to be a lot harder under this system as you will become a baby sitter/instructor for the new guys who come on line.
Of course the difference being you can get some decent money O/S to compensate slightly.
Maybe we could all get together
and go to the companies and tell them we want Trg Capt pay whenever we fly with these MPLs................that'd work 
( or we could just say to management " thats not how we did it in Ansett " )
