730 Report on Pilot Training.
Instant Pilots out of a box?
The Emperor is not wearing any clothes!
It's a crock of sh!t! And in time will be responsible for many innocent passenger deaths.
Perhaps we could also fix Australia's lack of medical doctors by training school kids on the internet?
The Emperor is not wearing any clothes!
It's a crock of sh!t! And in time will be responsible for many innocent passenger deaths.
Perhaps we could also fix Australia's lack of medical doctors by training school kids on the internet?
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The problem isn't the training whether we introduce the MPL or not.
The problem is rooting in Management of the Airlines, they view pilots as one poster put it an 'expense and therefore fail to look after their pilots. This has occurred in all professions thus we have shortage throughout.
But fall short of just blaming the Government eventually, the problem lies with the view that pilot training is too expensive! I like REX's advertisement recently.
Also there is more to life of a pilot than in a jumbo. "Training in Irrelevant single engine aircraft" - F**k off!
The problem is rooting in Management of the Airlines, they view pilots as one poster put it an 'expense and therefore fail to look after their pilots. This has occurred in all professions thus we have shortage throughout.
But fall short of just blaming the Government eventually, the problem lies with the view that pilot training is too expensive! I like REX's advertisement recently.
Also there is more to life of a pilot than in a jumbo. "Training in Irrelevant single engine aircraft" - F**k off!
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How many of us remember being alone, way out in the middle of nowhere, saying "I'll never, ever do this again
You have never been lost until you have been lost doing mach 3.
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FlexibleResponse that’s a great analogy. Let’s take it one step further.
This is a question to all you pro MPLers out there.……….. Would you send a loved one needing life threatening surgery to a surgeon who has only done an accelerated, simulated specialist course? Only an abbreviated medical diploma for the basics, 10 days experience as an intern and then some simulated surgery training. No Medical degree, no experience.
Unless your an idiot, then the answer is no. So why would anyone send loved ones up in a plane with an MPL pilot who is responsible for many lives, not just one.
Flying is still inherently dangerous. People just tend to forget that nowadays, especially if they know the instructor can hit the pause button if it gets out of shape. There is no substitute for decision making experience period.
As someone stated earlier, sims are an excellent training aid for experienced pilots. What do airlines look for in their interviews? Decision making thought processes during real scenarios. Not something that can be taught in a sim and applied later to unknown scenarios.
Another point is that these MPLs will never have an appreciation of the Captain’s responsibility, duties or role. They will essentially be the Captain’s secretary, look but don’t touch. Talk about a steep cockpit gradient and subsequent safety implications later on.
If this ridiculous scheme gets the nod, who will wear the blood if an 85ton 737NG carrying 200 people crashes because an MPL rated crewmember froze at the wrong time. CASA?
This is a question to all you pro MPLers out there.……….. Would you send a loved one needing life threatening surgery to a surgeon who has only done an accelerated, simulated specialist course? Only an abbreviated medical diploma for the basics, 10 days experience as an intern and then some simulated surgery training. No Medical degree, no experience.
Unless your an idiot, then the answer is no. So why would anyone send loved ones up in a plane with an MPL pilot who is responsible for many lives, not just one.
Flying is still inherently dangerous. People just tend to forget that nowadays, especially if they know the instructor can hit the pause button if it gets out of shape. There is no substitute for decision making experience period.
As someone stated earlier, sims are an excellent training aid for experienced pilots. What do airlines look for in their interviews? Decision making thought processes during real scenarios. Not something that can be taught in a sim and applied later to unknown scenarios.
Another point is that these MPLs will never have an appreciation of the Captain’s responsibility, duties or role. They will essentially be the Captain’s secretary, look but don’t touch. Talk about a steep cockpit gradient and subsequent safety implications later on.
If this ridiculous scheme gets the nod, who will wear the blood if an 85ton 737NG carrying 200 people crashes because an MPL rated crewmember froze at the wrong time. CASA?
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Good point Erin
So why would anyone send loved ones up in a plane with an MPL pilot who is responsible for many lives, not just one.
As an example, QF's minimum still states 500cmd, say 600TT. Not sure if anyone actually gets in with these mins. Maybe in QF's opinion the aptitude of the candidate is of more importance than the level of experience. I have met pilots with plenty of total time who would probably freeze at the wrong time...
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Pass-A- Frozo
Quote: Frozo
"With all due respect I don't think you've spent any time in a quality simulator."
Oh yes I have!! If you want to argue the quality of a CAT D sim at Alteon take it up with Management there.
You can learn heaps in a proper Sim, I say you just can't replace experience on line.
"With all due respect I don't think you've spent any time in a quality simulator."
Oh yes I have!! If you want to argue the quality of a CAT D sim at Alteon take it up with Management there.
You can learn heaps in a proper Sim, I say you just can't replace experience on line.
Last edited by R.Cruizo; 25th Sep 2007 at 14:52. Reason: I can't spell
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The traditional apprenticeship in GA has worked for Australia, Canada & USA because of supply and demand. In Europe, GA doesnt exist, it doesnt need to, so pilots traditionally have come from the military or intensive structured training programs. The MPL has come from Europe (specifically one well respected northern European Airline pushed for it) where there is a need to find people to fly multi crew aircraft because there isnt the experienced crews coming from the military or other sources, so there had to be another source. Questions should be asked, are the most suitable people being selected and trained for these positions, at the moment yes, but if the interest, terms and conditions continue to decline the best people for the job may not come forward, which would make things interesting.
As for experience, quality time making decisons as a commander is valuable but modern aircraft are more reliable than ever and in the current economic climate such 'hour' building in Europe isnt going to happen so the alternative is to put guys into the airline environment and let them gain thier expereince in a structured and managed environment.
The military have recruited and trained in this way for years, are people on this thread saying that young guys in their 20's shouldnt be flying multi engine or fast jets because they havent 'earnt' their wings flying around the mulga.
Not everyone who has 'done the hard yards' has the right to a job but if suitably able people with the right aptitude to be put through training and are managed then what is the problem.
The problem that so many airlines are having are that aircraft are very reliable and for pilots the simulator is the only place that you regularly get to deal with non normal situations. Are people saying that this 'experince' is not valid? Put it in another context, you can convert on a CCQ from the A320 to the A330 via the simulator only - a zero flight time course. Simulators allow time to train and give pilots valuable experience. Whilst a simulator cannot substitute for the real thing, I for one would rather train and have a SOP to deal with the real thing than muddle through. For those sitting on the GA side of the fence not haiving the benefit of being inside the Airline environment, the training is structured and audited by the airline and regulators, which I suggest is different to a GA environment.
Whilst Australians might not be able to get to grips with such a training program it is here to stay because economic circumstances dictate it, times are changing in Australia, not always for the better but this industry never stands still.
As for experience, quality time making decisons as a commander is valuable but modern aircraft are more reliable than ever and in the current economic climate such 'hour' building in Europe isnt going to happen so the alternative is to put guys into the airline environment and let them gain thier expereince in a structured and managed environment.
The military have recruited and trained in this way for years, are people on this thread saying that young guys in their 20's shouldnt be flying multi engine or fast jets because they havent 'earnt' their wings flying around the mulga.
Not everyone who has 'done the hard yards' has the right to a job but if suitably able people with the right aptitude to be put through training and are managed then what is the problem.
The problem that so many airlines are having are that aircraft are very reliable and for pilots the simulator is the only place that you regularly get to deal with non normal situations. Are people saying that this 'experince' is not valid? Put it in another context, you can convert on a CCQ from the A320 to the A330 via the simulator only - a zero flight time course. Simulators allow time to train and give pilots valuable experience. Whilst a simulator cannot substitute for the real thing, I for one would rather train and have a SOP to deal with the real thing than muddle through. For those sitting on the GA side of the fence not haiving the benefit of being inside the Airline environment, the training is structured and audited by the airline and regulators, which I suggest is different to a GA environment.
Whilst Australians might not be able to get to grips with such a training program it is here to stay because economic circumstances dictate it, times are changing in Australia, not always for the better but this industry never stands still.
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R.C.:
To my understanding, Alteon has Cat D Simulators at Brisbane but the Sim/FTD that was shown on the 730 report was a DA40 (or DA42?) FTD which is equiv. to the old Cat B standard.
The current FTDs are streets ahead of the old ATC/Frasca types but still not good enough to substitute reality.
However, with the planet needing 50,000/100,000 Airline Pilots in the next decade, the MCL appears to be a way to make up the shortage.
Lowering the entry bar has been happening for some time. Airlines in Europe (Air Berlin etc) have for some time, taken on F/O's with a S/E IFR CPL with the first multi type endorsement being a 737NG/A320 in a Sim. Some regionals in the USA take on Dash8/ATR F/O's with less than 100 hours Multi.
We may not agree with the MCL but believe me, it's here to stay!.
Oh yes I have!! If you want to argue the quality of a CAT D sim at Alteon take it up with Management there.
The current FTDs are streets ahead of the old ATC/Frasca types but still not good enough to substitute reality.
However, with the planet needing 50,000/100,000 Airline Pilots in the next decade, the MCL appears to be a way to make up the shortage.
Lowering the entry bar has been happening for some time. Airlines in Europe (Air Berlin etc) have for some time, taken on F/O's with a S/E IFR CPL with the first multi type endorsement being a 737NG/A320 in a Sim. Some regionals in the USA take on Dash8/ATR F/O's with less than 100 hours Multi.
We may not agree with the MCL but believe me, it's here to stay!.
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The only experience you need to fly an airliner is the experience you get in an airline.
The rest is horse****e.
The benefit of the MPL is the fact that you are trained 'from the beginning' to operate as part of a team in a multi-crew simulated environment, without wasting valuable time and resources tooling around in aeroplanes that have no relevance to airline operations or flying.
It's obvious, that if you have alot of time and experience flying SPIFR in high performance pistons and turbines, dodging weather etc etc, you get so attached to the high workload and stress of keeping yourself out of harms way by yourself without the benefit of another pilot to help you catch out errors or deviations, that there is absolutely no way you can relinquish all that control and responsibility to another pilot in a multi-crew environment: it's just an impossible leap of faith to make....not to mention another skill-set that is impossible to learn after all other skill-sets one must learn.
Airline equipment is so good these days, an airline pilot doesn't need previous experience to get out of trouble - that's why there are multiple redundant systems on board, and radar to help them if they get lost.
I can't understand what the fuss is all about! The MPL crews will be taught how to strictly follow procedures, what to do, when to do it, all in high fidelity simulators, after all, there are plenty of SOPS around to follow, isn't there??
For fukc sake, they are going to do 10 landings in a real aeroplane before they get their licence!
The rest is horse****e.
The benefit of the MPL is the fact that you are trained 'from the beginning' to operate as part of a team in a multi-crew simulated environment, without wasting valuable time and resources tooling around in aeroplanes that have no relevance to airline operations or flying.
It's obvious, that if you have alot of time and experience flying SPIFR in high performance pistons and turbines, dodging weather etc etc, you get so attached to the high workload and stress of keeping yourself out of harms way by yourself without the benefit of another pilot to help you catch out errors or deviations, that there is absolutely no way you can relinquish all that control and responsibility to another pilot in a multi-crew environment: it's just an impossible leap of faith to make....not to mention another skill-set that is impossible to learn after all other skill-sets one must learn.
Airline equipment is so good these days, an airline pilot doesn't need previous experience to get out of trouble - that's why there are multiple redundant systems on board, and radar to help them if they get lost.
I can't understand what the fuss is all about! The MPL crews will be taught how to strictly follow procedures, what to do, when to do it, all in high fidelity simulators, after all, there are plenty of SOPS around to follow, isn't there??
For fukc sake, they are going to do 10 landings in a real aeroplane before they get their licence!
Its too much like a video game for these youngsters.
I have not posted much in this forum but this is one time I will.
The big problem that I see with the attitude of these " Sim " created pilots is that they think that it is just another video game .
If all goes awry you just hit the reset button and all will be fixed .
You can then start all over again without hurting anyone .
If you get confused or lost , simple , just hit reset and all is rosy in the garden again.
If the WX is too bad and you can't handle it " no probs " just hit reset and maybe it will go away " .
To quote the latest sayings of the young " How cool is that " .
They will end up living in a world of fantasy and not reality for quite some time .
Thats it , its just another video game or could be unless their mental attitude changes .
Rod H
The big problem that I see with the attitude of these " Sim " created pilots is that they think that it is just another video game .
If all goes awry you just hit the reset button and all will be fixed .
You can then start all over again without hurting anyone .
If you get confused or lost , simple , just hit reset and all is rosy in the garden again.
If the WX is too bad and you can't handle it " no probs " just hit reset and maybe it will go away " .
To quote the latest sayings of the young " How cool is that " .
They will end up living in a world of fantasy and not reality for quite some time .
Thats it , its just another video game or could be unless their mental attitude changes .
Rod H
As has been stated simulators though good for procedures and doing things you wouldn't want to try in a real aircraft, they do however not feel like a real aircraft (767, and 737 3/4/and 800 sims that I've flown) . You don't get that little feeling of sink as you cross the river off 07 in Syd or any other multitude of little things make up real flying. Sims have their place for sure and an increased role is probably a good thing. But to reduce actual flying to 10 hours or something is BAD.
How do you do a PFL in a sim? Computer terrain is just not good enough to be able to do things like this.
The other thing that never gets really replicated in a Sim is the Comms side. You have one instructor playing the role of ATC etc, you don't get all the radio traffic that makes up a flight.
How do you do a PFL in a sim? Computer terrain is just not good enough to be able to do things like this.
The other thing that never gets really replicated in a Sim is the Comms side. You have one instructor playing the role of ATC etc, you don't get all the radio traffic that makes up a flight.
Noone on that show mention the pyschological aspect of leaving a simulator and then doing the same thing in a aeroplane for real, where you have in the back of your mind "if I screw this up we die".
The other problem with the MPL is who will hire these guys? For the system to work they have to have a job lined up before they start as part of their license training is on type. Which Australian airline's going to do that?
Noone mentioned cost yet either.
The other problem with the MPL is who will hire these guys? For the system to work they have to have a job lined up before they start as part of their license training is on type. Which Australian airline's going to do that?
Noone mentioned cost yet either.
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SNAFU,
That point is a major one. With just one instructor replicating communications, only one transmission by the instructor can be made at any one time.
You cannot possibly re-create the real world where you are flying into a busy CTAF-R, receiving traffic from Centre, and having the cabin call you at the same time to tell you that a passenger has just had some sort of medical problem. All the time flying the aircraft, reading checklists, and talking to the other crew member.
This is my personal gripe with simulators, they just cannot load you up like in real-life. And so sims should be treated as a training aid to practise drills, aircraft handling, and standard operating procedures, NOT to teach pilots how to fly in an airline environment.
That point is a major one. With just one instructor replicating communications, only one transmission by the instructor can be made at any one time.
You cannot possibly re-create the real world where you are flying into a busy CTAF-R, receiving traffic from Centre, and having the cabin call you at the same time to tell you that a passenger has just had some sort of medical problem. All the time flying the aircraft, reading checklists, and talking to the other crew member.
This is my personal gripe with simulators, they just cannot load you up like in real-life. And so sims should be treated as a training aid to practise drills, aircraft handling, and standard operating procedures, NOT to teach pilots how to fly in an airline environment.
Silly Old Git
My kids have got VID games and PS2,never been on the flight deck they can remember (too young)
I borrowed a SIM and let them have a go
They said THIS IS IT?
Too boring.
I borrowed a SIM and let them have a go
They said THIS IS IT?
Too boring.
Real life experience aint worth a cracker in Australia already. You could have 20,000 jet hours and if you come back to Australia to work you have to be a junior F/O or S/o . There will be no shortage of guys if qualifications and experience is respected. 100s if not thousands of Aussies would return home if they could maintain their current rank. Bring on the AWA's.
We all seem to be forgetting that this will cripple the GA industry.
If kiddies dont have to go bush, take sh!t from management and clean up vomit to end up in an airline job, then they wont. And what will be the future for remote communities, no mail, no rfds, no aeromed, no more aboriginal intervention.
What about the instructors, very few will be left to teach the pilots who want to fly "useless single engine aircraft" for pleasure or to actually get qualifications to fly command of a shiny jet one day.
Will there be enough "hardcores" to keep GA alive, because it already seems there arent enough pilots in the NT to fill the work now
If kiddies dont have to go bush, take sh!t from management and clean up vomit to end up in an airline job, then they wont. And what will be the future for remote communities, no mail, no rfds, no aeromed, no more aboriginal intervention.
What about the instructors, very few will be left to teach the pilots who want to fly "useless single engine aircraft" for pleasure or to actually get qualifications to fly command of a shiny jet one day.
Will there be enough "hardcores" to keep GA alive, because it already seems there arent enough pilots in the NT to fill the work now