Hello? ML Centre? Yoohoo! Anyone home?
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I would suggest that being told that "TIBA procedures apply, frequency change approved" would indicate SARWATCH Terminated; if it were at high levels in CTA on the "Otherside" you have to contact the next unit all by yourself and get your onwards clearance, is it any different in terms of SARWATCH?
Interested also in what exactly happens to SARWATCH in this TIBA area due to lack of ATC.
The way I understand it is that an RPT or CHT aircraft under the IFR must have continuous capability to contact ATS (or the provision of trained ground company personel etc..). I'm assuming aircraft could still contact ATS via HF whilst in these areas or was HF unavailable too?
Also SARWATCH can not be terminated without a specific exchange, it's not just left to an assumption!
The way I understand it is that an RPT or CHT aircraft under the IFR must have continuous capability to contact ATS (or the provision of trained ground company personel etc..). I'm assuming aircraft could still contact ATS via HF whilst in these areas or was HF unavailable too?
Also SARWATCH can not be terminated without a specific exchange, it's not just left to an assumption!
Bottums Up
Nominate a SARTIME prior to leaving CTA, then when contacting company inbound, brief them to call Censar when they see the aircraft roll past the terminal and use the phrase, "ABC, Paraburdoo, cancel SARtime"
A full SARWATCH, by its very name, requires someone to be WATCHING.
The fact that you are in TIBA airspace means that there was NO ONE available to man that position... ergo, there is no one WATCHING.
If you nominate a SARTIME for arrival at your destination, that's a different matter. That's held in the CENSAR system.
The fact that you are in TIBA airspace means that there was NO ONE available to man that position... ergo, there is no one WATCHING.
If you nominate a SARTIME for arrival at your destination, that's a different matter. That's held in the CENSAR system.
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43 Inches, whilst I agree with the sentiments re SARWATCH, being told “Air Traffic Services Terminated, TIBA procedures apply, Frequency change approved” would implicitly suggest to me you are now getting no service; there surely is no doubt.
From AIP Gen 3.3
From AIP Gen 3.3
A position report must be made on the next CTA/FIA frequency 15 minutes prior to leaving airspace in which TIBA procedures apply to obtain a clearance or re-establish SARWATCH on the appropriate ATS frequency.
SM4, my only problem with that statement is that no positive cancellation has occured and both parties may be operating on assumptions. The pilot may assume he still has SARWATCH and the ATS operator may assume the pilot will cancel on HF. There are many places in oz where VHF coverage is lost and usualy SARWATCH requirements are arranged in these areas mutually prior to entry, ie cancel in the circuit, via relay, nominated reporting time, HF etc.. After reading the section in the AIP regarding TIBA there was no statement that SARWATCH is maintained or not, only the AIP GEN rules regarding continuous comms seems to stand out, that is VHF control is lost but some comms via HF or flightwatch must still exist there. Further query must be the question that IFR can not operate in this VHF void without HF contact? or if Flightwatch does exist then this must qualify as VHF coverage? Unfortunately I can not extrapolate an answer from what i've read so far!
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and the ATS operator may assume the pilot will cancel on HF
Relating to leaving VHF coverage the is an obligation as part of the SARWATCH service to follow up with you and if necessary go through HF, mobile phones etc.; before declaring a phase; i.e. the Air Traffic Service hasn't been terminated.
I can guarantee that there will be no follow-up/phase initiated by an ATC when you enter TIBA; unless you don't acknowledge the get off my dial call.
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The Devil's Advocate
As a controller who has worked the airspace in question, I can understand the belief that the controllers have that the phrase Air Traffic Services Terminated absolves the controller and the company of any subsequent responsibility in regard to SARWATCH, however, I suspect that the legal answer would be otherwise...
Imagine said situation being examined in a court of law in Australia. Barrister for the families of the deceased questions the Airservices Australia managers and controllers along the lines of the following:
You say that a SARWATCH is an Air Traffic Service and that the phrase "Air Traffic Services Terminated indicated that the SARWATCH was terminated... can a SARWATCH be communicated to, and held by a person other than a person licensed to provide an Air Traffic Service?
Therefore the holding of a SARWATCH is a service other than an Air Traffic Service... it just happens to have been provided by an Air Traffic Controller at the time.
Did the controller who was last able to provide the SARWATCH service have a VSCS communication line to a third party service provider who, at the time, was able to assume responsibility for the provision of SARWATCH to the aircraft until such time as the SARWATCH was cancelled by the PIC?
Why didn't the controller co-ordinate the SARWATCH details to the third party provider of SARWATCH prior to terminating the Air Traffic Service?
The above summarised in three words...
Duty of Care.
Imagine said situation being examined in a court of law in Australia. Barrister for the families of the deceased questions the Airservices Australia managers and controllers along the lines of the following:
You say that a SARWATCH is an Air Traffic Service and that the phrase "Air Traffic Services Terminated indicated that the SARWATCH was terminated... can a SARWATCH be communicated to, and held by a person other than a person licensed to provide an Air Traffic Service?
Therefore the holding of a SARWATCH is a service other than an Air Traffic Service... it just happens to have been provided by an Air Traffic Controller at the time.
Did the controller who was last able to provide the SARWATCH service have a VSCS communication line to a third party service provider who, at the time, was able to assume responsibility for the provision of SARWATCH to the aircraft until such time as the SARWATCH was cancelled by the PIC?
Why didn't the controller co-ordinate the SARWATCH details to the third party provider of SARWATCH prior to terminating the Air Traffic Service?
The above summarised in three words...
Duty of Care.
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Therefore the holding of a SARWATCH is a service other than an Air Traffic Service
If a VFR was leaving CTA and you said "Air Traffic Services terminated, squawk 1 2 0 0, frequency changed approved" You have not cancelled it's SARTIME; but you have cancelled it's SARWATCH; i.e. two way comms are over and I'm not coming looking for you at my initiation.
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The Devil's Advocate... Part 2
Good points, replace the word SARWATCH with Sartime and we get to the heart of the issue. The IFR service being provided to the aircraft includes both an inflight SARWATCH and a Sartime for arrival at destination.
As indicated by previous posts, the PIC of the IFR aircraft believes that whilst the inflight Air Traffic Service is no longer being provided, an IFR Sartime for arrival at destination is still being held by Airservices Australia, the last ATS unit aware of the aircrafts ETA. Why wouldn't he, they have his FPL and ETA and the ability to hold the Sartime for destination or relay it to a third party service provider prior to refusing to provide any service to the aircraft and it's occupants.
Under law, making a unilateral statement that you will no longer provide assistance to an aircraft and it's occupants does not absolve you of responsibility for that aircraft and it's occupants. The court would attempt to determine to what extent you were able to provide assistance to the aircraft and it's occupants and then apply the Reasonable Actions test to determine whether your refusal to provide such assistance was warranted or not.
As indicated by previous posts, the PIC of the IFR aircraft believes that whilst the inflight Air Traffic Service is no longer being provided, an IFR Sartime for arrival at destination is still being held by Airservices Australia, the last ATS unit aware of the aircrafts ETA. Why wouldn't he, they have his FPL and ETA and the ability to hold the Sartime for destination or relay it to a third party service provider prior to refusing to provide any service to the aircraft and it's occupants.
Under law, making a unilateral statement that you will no longer provide assistance to an aircraft and it's occupants does not absolve you of responsibility for that aircraft and it's occupants. The court would attempt to determine to what extent you were able to provide assistance to the aircraft and it's occupants and then apply the Reasonable Actions test to determine whether your refusal to provide such assistance was warranted or not.
Right, I'd like to add a bit to my previous post, which seems to have opened a can of worms, somewhat...
I have been racking my brain, trying to remember particular phraseology used, and I'm pretty sure that:
1) When we entered the TIBA airspace, it was on descent from E airspace (normal) to G airspace (where the TIBA was in force). This was via the normal "when ready leave control area descending, control services terminated". There was however no mention of "no reported IFR traffic" or "contact [some other freq.] at TOPD"
2) After landing we made the same call to HF that is always made, namely "landed Yxxx cancel SarWATCH". The reply was also as usual - "SarWATCH Terminated".
So that suggests to me that a Sarwatch for our arrival was in place. Otherwise, Flightwatch (HF) would have said they had nothing to cancel.
Also, I never heard "Air traffic services terminated" - that phrase has been used in previous posts. So perhaps there are subtle differences in the situations others are describing, to the one I experienced, and am wondering about.
I must say right now, without question - If I know I am subject to a Sarwatch, I expect to be in place
UNTIL I AM TOLD SPECIFICALLY THAT IT ISN'T
I can't find any reference to it being "implied" by any other statement, and that's not good enough. That's like having someone cancel my Sartime (if I'm operating on one of those instead) because they thought that's what I might have wanted. Mate I'll cancel it when I'm finished with it. If you want to cancel it earlier for whatever reason - you better bloody tell me you have.
As a captain of the aircraft, it is my responsibility to ensure SAR services are in place for the flight, in accordance with AIP. How do I do that? Well there are various ways, and it is a function of category and/or type of operation.
SM4 - I am curious, are you posting from a pilot or ATC point of view?
Cheers all,
CR.
I have been racking my brain, trying to remember particular phraseology used, and I'm pretty sure that:
1) When we entered the TIBA airspace, it was on descent from E airspace (normal) to G airspace (where the TIBA was in force). This was via the normal "when ready leave control area descending, control services terminated". There was however no mention of "no reported IFR traffic" or "contact [some other freq.] at TOPD"
2) After landing we made the same call to HF that is always made, namely "landed Yxxx cancel SarWATCH". The reply was also as usual - "SarWATCH Terminated".
So that suggests to me that a Sarwatch for our arrival was in place. Otherwise, Flightwatch (HF) would have said they had nothing to cancel.
Also, I never heard "Air traffic services terminated" - that phrase has been used in previous posts. So perhaps there are subtle differences in the situations others are describing, to the one I experienced, and am wondering about.
I must say right now, without question - If I know I am subject to a Sarwatch, I expect to be in place
UNTIL I AM TOLD SPECIFICALLY THAT IT ISN'T
I can't find any reference to it being "implied" by any other statement, and that's not good enough. That's like having someone cancel my Sartime (if I'm operating on one of those instead) because they thought that's what I might have wanted. Mate I'll cancel it when I'm finished with it. If you want to cancel it earlier for whatever reason - you better bloody tell me you have.
As a captain of the aircraft, it is my responsibility to ensure SAR services are in place for the flight, in accordance with AIP. How do I do that? Well there are various ways, and it is a function of category and/or type of operation.
SM4 - I am curious, are you posting from a pilot or ATC point of view?
Cheers all,
CR.
I'm with SM4 ....
SARTIME .... held by ATS, normally for arrival at an aerodrome
FLIGHT NOTE ... can be held by anyone, normally for arraival at an aerodrome
SARWATCH ... Search And Rescue WATCH, based on continuous 2 way communications ... provided by ATS. For it to exist, there has to be an ATS Officer there, AND, you must be able to maintain 2-way continuous communications with him/her. If you are in a TIBA area, it is likely that you are only in range of the frequency that is normally guraded by that Sector Controller ... who ain't there. No one is watching your blip or ensuring that you answer all calls. A SARWATCH cannot exist.
Having said that, if you got into trouble and were able to raise another sector on the radio, they would certainly provide you with any assistance they could.
P.S. No one can hear you yell in space !
SARTIME .... held by ATS, normally for arrival at an aerodrome
FLIGHT NOTE ... can be held by anyone, normally for arraival at an aerodrome
SARWATCH ... Search And Rescue WATCH, based on continuous 2 way communications ... provided by ATS. For it to exist, there has to be an ATS Officer there, AND, you must be able to maintain 2-way continuous communications with him/her. If you are in a TIBA area, it is likely that you are only in range of the frequency that is normally guraded by that Sector Controller ... who ain't there. No one is watching your blip or ensuring that you answer all calls. A SARWATCH cannot exist.
Having said that, if you got into trouble and were able to raise another sector on the radio, they would certainly provide you with any assistance they could.
P.S. No one can hear you yell in space !
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I've been in ATS for 30+ years and I'm with SM4 Pirate on this. I reckon if your air traffic services are terminated then it's up to the pilot to make other SAR arrangements. (And I'd be happy to phone them through for you.)
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Also TIBA procedures are there and notamed. Those are the rules. No where does it say ATC will hold SAR based on your exit. It states to contact 15 minutes prior to exit to enable SAR and stuff.
To the bloke above who said he landed in the TIBA area and cancelled SAR and HF said the right words, sounds about right. HF will cancel it then go looking for who is holding it. I personally in the reverse scenario of a VFR cancelling a Censar filed Sartime tell them to stand by until I can contact flightwatch and the they accept the cancellation. The Sartime could be held by pretty much anybody and if I know it is not me, I am not saying the magic words until I hear from the person holding it. Bad practice what HF does I feel but otherwise there would need to be much more chatter on already full frequencies.
To the bloke above who said he landed in the TIBA area and cancelled SAR and HF said the right words, sounds about right. HF will cancel it then go looking for who is holding it. I personally in the reverse scenario of a VFR cancelling a Censar filed Sartime tell them to stand by until I can contact flightwatch and the they accept the cancellation. The Sartime could be held by pretty much anybody and if I know it is not me, I am not saying the magic words until I hear from the person holding it. Bad practice what HF does I feel but otherwise there would need to be much more chatter on already full frequencies.
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Tobzalp,
Re SARTIME held by anybody.....nope.....All SARTIME are held in CENSAR for all civil aircraft nominated to all ATSUs. There is only one CENSAR system and it can be accessed by multiple people. Hell, you can even send an AFTN ARR message and you therefore don't have to know that that much.
Dealing with busy frequencies is a problem - poor coord is a bigger one.
If the single ATCer staffing multiple combined sectors - high and low - answered the intercom in a timely fashion (ie, under 5 minutes on **lots** of occaisions) then maybe the practice of holding up the pilot to merely advise "Cancel Sarwatch" could be justified.
I sure the HF people would humbly suggest that you review your own bad practices before publicly criticising them and their huge workload juggling multiple frequencies, receivers and transmitters with all calls being cold calls.
Re SARTIME held by anybody.....nope.....All SARTIME are held in CENSAR for all civil aircraft nominated to all ATSUs. There is only one CENSAR system and it can be accessed by multiple people. Hell, you can even send an AFTN ARR message and you therefore don't have to know that that much.
Dealing with busy frequencies is a problem - poor coord is a bigger one.
If the single ATCer staffing multiple combined sectors - high and low - answered the intercom in a timely fashion (ie, under 5 minutes on **lots** of occaisions) then maybe the practice of holding up the pilot to merely advise "Cancel Sarwatch" could be justified.
I sure the HF people would humbly suggest that you review your own bad practices before publicly criticising them and their huge workload juggling multiple frequencies, receivers and transmitters with all calls being cold calls.
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SARTIME held by anybody.....nope.....All SARTIME are held in CENSAR for all civil aircraft nominated to all ATSUs
Additionally, it is not criticism I am posting. It is just stating how it is done. It IS bad practice as I have been involved a couple of times with the HF operator calling me to cancel SAR on something I have had no details on. The phone rang up the front as I refused to read back the call sign. Why would I? the pilot thinks they cancelled, I read it to the HF guy but some dude 2 consoles over or two aisles over has it sitting on a scratch pad, the timer goes off and they go looking for him. There is no record that I cancelled it. Someone calls HF who recalls calling me and suddenly some greasy pole climber from up the front is doing their best to 'make an example' of the practice and I find myself in hot water. Sound far fetched? Well I have worked for this bunch of arseholes long enough to know better.
Sigh. Been on two weeks leave and I swing by to see what is going on and let myself get caught up in it. I disappoint myself sometimes.
Last edited by tobzalp; 14th Oct 2007 at 07:08.
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MATS 7.2.25.1
SARTIMES are managed through a centralised SARTIME database
(CENSAR). Flight notifications addressed to CENSAR automatically have their SARTIME details placed into the database. CENSAR will alert the Flightwatch operator both when the SARTIME and the INCERFA times are reached.
MATS 7.2.25.2
CENSAR is used to manage all SARTIMEs for civil aircraft nominated to all ATSUs. CENSAR is also used to manage SARTIMEs for military aircraft nominated to all Airservices Australia ATSUs and most military units.
Pretty clear to me that is not incorrect.
If some ATCer has it written on his scratch pad and has set a "timer" and no-one other than that person can find it...then that is non-compliant with basic docuements and IS bad practice.
The officer (ATC or flightwatch for that matter) that is talking to the pilot, cancels the sarwatch or sartime. They then undertake to coordinate that cancellation to the holder of the sarwatch or sartime.
The phone would ring up the front to one of the supervisors because it is a superviors problem to sort out once the console ATC does not accept it.
What do you expect the HF operator to do? They are a relay conduit and need to acquit that responsibility and get the required acknowledgment and/or readbacks (as also specifed in MATS). If you don't want to do that, then accept that the next step up the food chain is going to get a call about it and you may be called to account.
The Flightwatch officer has no details on anything. Every call is a cold call and it must be taken on good faith that when a pilot calls to cancel SARWATCH, then such a thing exists. Waiting for some ATC running a wad of combined sectors to answer an intercom before "cancel sarwatch" is ludicrous.
SARTIMES are managed through a centralised SARTIME database
(CENSAR). Flight notifications addressed to CENSAR automatically have their SARTIME details placed into the database. CENSAR will alert the Flightwatch operator both when the SARTIME and the INCERFA times are reached.
MATS 7.2.25.2
CENSAR is used to manage all SARTIMEs for civil aircraft nominated to all ATSUs. CENSAR is also used to manage SARTIMEs for military aircraft nominated to all Airservices Australia ATSUs and most military units.
Pretty clear to me that is not incorrect.
If some ATCer has it written on his scratch pad and has set a "timer" and no-one other than that person can find it...then that is non-compliant with basic docuements and IS bad practice.
The officer (ATC or flightwatch for that matter) that is talking to the pilot, cancels the sarwatch or sartime. They then undertake to coordinate that cancellation to the holder of the sarwatch or sartime.
The phone would ring up the front to one of the supervisors because it is a superviors problem to sort out once the console ATC does not accept it.
What do you expect the HF operator to do? They are a relay conduit and need to acquit that responsibility and get the required acknowledgment and/or readbacks (as also specifed in MATS). If you don't want to do that, then accept that the next step up the food chain is going to get a call about it and you may be called to account.
The Flightwatch officer has no details on anything. Every call is a cold call and it must be taken on good faith that when a pilot calls to cancel SARWATCH, then such a thing exists. Waiting for some ATC running a wad of combined sectors to answer an intercom before "cancel sarwatch" is ludicrous.
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The Devil's Advocate... Part 3
I can't think of a generic word or term for SARWATCH, Sartime and Flight Note, except maybe the three letters... SAR. Replace the words with whatever generic word or term that you prefer or believe to be the case for the following:
Monitoring of the safe arrival of an IFR aircraft and it's occupants at destination and action following a failure to report arrival at destination.
The purpose of this part of the debate is to discuss the responsibility and/or transfer of responsibility for SAR for IFR aircraft when Air Traffic Services are reduced or terminated due inability to provide services in part or whole.
Instead of focusing on book definitions of the words SARWATCH, Sartime and Flight Note, it would be more useful to answer the question of SAR responsibilities of Air Traffic Control prior to, and at the time of, reducing or terminating Air Traffic Services.
If you were asked the question as to why you didn't lodge a Sartime with CENSAR for IFR aircraft before terminating Air Traffic Services, given that you have a direct VSCS line to CENSAR, what would you say?
Monitoring of the safe arrival of an IFR aircraft and it's occupants at destination and action following a failure to report arrival at destination.
The purpose of this part of the debate is to discuss the responsibility and/or transfer of responsibility for SAR for IFR aircraft when Air Traffic Services are reduced or terminated due inability to provide services in part or whole.
Instead of focusing on book definitions of the words SARWATCH, Sartime and Flight Note, it would be more useful to answer the question of SAR responsibilities of Air Traffic Control prior to, and at the time of, reducing or terminating Air Traffic Services.
If you were asked the question as to why you didn't lodge a Sartime with CENSAR for IFR aircraft before terminating Air Traffic Services, given that you have a direct VSCS line to CENSAR, what would you say?
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If you were asked the question as to why you didn't lodge a Sartime with CENSAR for IFR aircraft before terminating Air Traffic Services, given that you have a direct VSCS line to CENSAR, what would you say?
Were they aware that a SARTIME was lodged on their behalf?
Did they have the capacity to contact flightwatch and cancel the SARTIME on arrival?
Do they have an alternative already organised like company rep on the ground at destination that was holding a flight note on them?
Too many open questions to work through to consider this as a matter of course.
Generic term is the heading of "SAR Alerting".
(Alerting Action is based on 1 of 4 procedures (MATS 7.2.3.1)
Nominated IFER
Required to report or who have nominated reporting schedules
nominated SARTIME
flight note or not submitted flight notification)
Choose your Procedure - Choose your Consequences