Want the JOB but will not pay 35k for it?
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Can't say I have any problems with bonding...
...an employer should be able to expect a reasonable return-of-service after investing in it's employee's training, I believe that's a reasonable expectation and bonding simply assures that their investment doesn't walk out the door prematurely.
Having said that, I'd want to be very familiar with T&Cs before accepting bond.
LP
...an employer should be able to expect a reasonable return-of-service after investing in it's employee's training, I believe that's a reasonable expectation and bonding simply assures that their investment doesn't walk out the door prematurely.
Having said that, I'd want to be very familiar with T&Cs before accepting bond.
LP
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Nothing is free. Somehow, somewhere, by some hidden or visible mechanism you pay. Of course you do. I paid quite visibly through the nose for a 777 rating years and years ago, best thing I ever did. By far. Decades ago I used up all my long service leave to go back to uni. Again, great decision. Made all the difference. BIg deal. Probably cost me $5 a week to have had the very best jobs flying could ever offer. The very best.
Don't sacrifice your career by fighting a silly war you can't win. Do the numbers, invest in your future, let the ideologues squabble, have fun. If you spend your life in the hold or diverting to an alternate, you'll never get to a worthwhile destination.
Safe flying
An older, wiser, greyer Captain Sherm.
Don't sacrifice your career by fighting a silly war you can't win. Do the numbers, invest in your future, let the ideologues squabble, have fun. If you spend your life in the hold or diverting to an alternate, you'll never get to a worthwhile destination.
Safe flying
An older, wiser, greyer Captain Sherm.
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It's all about choices.
You have the choice, to pay and get the job or apply to some other airline and go work for them instead. If you really want to work for those scum bags but on your terms you will have to compromise or be disappointed in the short term.
IMHO, if you can scrape the money together,you should sign a contract, get the endorsement and training from them, then leave as soon as you have the hours to do so. Such companies have not earned nor deserve your loyalty.
They are sucking money from junior pilots who can hardly afford to rent an apartment or support their families and often still have debts from their initial training. The only way for most to pay this amount is to take out a loan!
Alternatively only the wealthy pilots get the jobs, and that is discrimination not equal opportunity!
Now if they were paying top money for pilots who are already endorsed, the salary sacrifice system may be the way to go. You would then end up doing ok eventually. But they don't pay good money and you will struggle to meet every debt, while they continue to suck you dry at every opportunity.
So as I said above, take out the loan, then get the f_ck out of there asap.
They have made this profession a nasty business in OZ and you should not hesitate to treat them the same way.
You have the choice, to pay and get the job or apply to some other airline and go work for them instead. If you really want to work for those scum bags but on your terms you will have to compromise or be disappointed in the short term.
IMHO, if you can scrape the money together,you should sign a contract, get the endorsement and training from them, then leave as soon as you have the hours to do so. Such companies have not earned nor deserve your loyalty.
They are sucking money from junior pilots who can hardly afford to rent an apartment or support their families and often still have debts from their initial training. The only way for most to pay this amount is to take out a loan!
Alternatively only the wealthy pilots get the jobs, and that is discrimination not equal opportunity!
Now if they were paying top money for pilots who are already endorsed, the salary sacrifice system may be the way to go. You would then end up doing ok eventually. But they don't pay good money and you will struggle to meet every debt, while they continue to suck you dry at every opportunity.
So as I said above, take out the loan, then get the f_ck out of there asap.
They have made this profession a nasty business in OZ and you should not hesitate to treat them the same way.
I think you gotta put it into perspective, whilst I don't necessarily agree with paying for your own endorsement, I had no problem paying for my initial twin endorsement because I though it would better my career and keep me a bit more competative. As I don't really agree with some guys going and buying hours on a 210 to look better for a prospective employee up north, but hey people do it to get the edge.
Unfortunately my inital twin was about $1400, not $30grand so I do definately see why people would stand their ground.
I'm sure if a 737/a320 Endorsement was $1400 people would still complain on a principals ground but not nearly as much!
Unfortunately my inital twin was about $1400, not $30grand so I do definately see why people would stand their ground.
I'm sure if a 737/a320 Endorsement was $1400 people would still complain on a principals ground but not nearly as much!
Last decade, when I joined the airlines, they paid for my training. So I bought an inner city terrace after a few months. A decade later and I know pilots who sell their assets to pay for airline training.There is significant wealth gap emerging.
Rich pilots. Poor pilots?
Rich pilots. Poor pilots?
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Mate of mine just picked up a gig at one of the bigger Charter operators flying Dash-8. Not sure if they raised the matter first but he basically told them... you want me to fly for you fine - but if you want me to pay for an endorsement this meeting is over now!
He got the job, the endo and a good package
The times are definately changing. I had a chat to a Braz skipper the other day who said that they are also screaming out for pilots.
Wish it was like that when I was trying to get into a paying gig about 8 yrs ago
I had to move onto less exciting but better paying sources of income.
He got the job, the endo and a good package
The times are definately changing. I had a chat to a Braz skipper the other day who said that they are also screaming out for pilots.
Wish it was like that when I was trying to get into a paying gig about 8 yrs ago
I had to move onto less exciting but better paying sources of income.
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Captain Sherm has some points. Don't bite your nose off to spite your face i suppose.
My advice try for QF CX and all the others first. If none of them come off then you need to think about what you want out of the career. You might be able to find a good turbo prop operator that won't charge you a cent. But for some the Jet job is the goal..
My advice try for QF CX and all the others first. If none of them come off then you need to think about what you want out of the career. You might be able to find a good turbo prop operator that won't charge you a cent. But for some the Jet job is the goal..
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Hi everyone,
I'm currently working on the Bell St Caltex servo doing nights. Id love to be a commercial pilot someday. Do you think I should sit back and wait for an Essendon charter company to pay for my CPL and MECIR?
I'm just not sure if I should change to suit the industry or if I should hold onto my pipedreams and keep working in this servo for the next 10 years while I watch everyone else getting ahead by "buying" a CPL.
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I'm currently working on the Bell St Caltex servo doing nights. Id love to be a commercial pilot someday. Do you think I should sit back and wait for an Essendon charter company to pay for my CPL and MECIR?
I'm just not sure if I should change to suit the industry or if I should hold onto my pipedreams and keep working in this servo for the next 10 years while I watch everyone else getting ahead by "buying" a CPL.
bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz
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Firstly - nice to see all the girls and boys playing fair and nice; doesn't always happen on Pprune!
Some great advice and thoughts from both sides of the divide, a bit in between but as not as much as there SHOULD be.
I am ready to leave the game should circumstances and lotto kick in, have thoroughly enjoyed playing but it is a very, very different game today then when I started.
Just some thoughts:
- 6 years ago after 9/11 there was an oversupply of pilots, now there is a (perceived) undersupply. Life is a sign curve, it is not impossible that in a few years, for whatever the cause, the demand decreases;
- experience is far more portable, like it or not the world IS opening up to movement of employment opportunities;
- with that comes the potential for individuals to ask where they would be willing to live (for money, lifestyle experience etc) Vs "never leave Oz" - both very valid arguments, no question!;
- having had a good run I have to accept that for whatever reasons the recruitment procedures in some of the airlines overseas and most of the local Oz airlines has changed - and individuals have to decide where they are placed and act accordingly.
I dealt with what was available in my day - and others can only deal with what is available in their day and whether I think it is good or bad is of no relavance to myself (sadness perhaps, but nothing more.)
The minority (I believe) are in it purely for the flying, and not for the "money" but because of "what's next..??"
Not because it was bigger but "different."
So decide what is good for you, your family life, your career - and act accordingly - and have no reason to criticise or (overly) judge others.
Have to finally agree with the intent of one particular poster - I know my personal professional desire has not died, however my allegiance to an airline died on 12/09/01.
If you DO pay for your endorsement it is yours, not theirs, therefore have no qualms about moving on should you desire.
Cheers
galdian
Some great advice and thoughts from both sides of the divide, a bit in between but as not as much as there SHOULD be.
I am ready to leave the game should circumstances and lotto kick in, have thoroughly enjoyed playing but it is a very, very different game today then when I started.
Just some thoughts:
- 6 years ago after 9/11 there was an oversupply of pilots, now there is a (perceived) undersupply. Life is a sign curve, it is not impossible that in a few years, for whatever the cause, the demand decreases;
- experience is far more portable, like it or not the world IS opening up to movement of employment opportunities;
- with that comes the potential for individuals to ask where they would be willing to live (for money, lifestyle experience etc) Vs "never leave Oz" - both very valid arguments, no question!;
- having had a good run I have to accept that for whatever reasons the recruitment procedures in some of the airlines overseas and most of the local Oz airlines has changed - and individuals have to decide where they are placed and act accordingly.
I dealt with what was available in my day - and others can only deal with what is available in their day and whether I think it is good or bad is of no relavance to myself (sadness perhaps, but nothing more.)
The minority (I believe) are in it purely for the flying, and not for the "money" but because of "what's next..??"
Not because it was bigger but "different."
So decide what is good for you, your family life, your career - and act accordingly - and have no reason to criticise or (overly) judge others.
Have to finally agree with the intent of one particular poster - I know my personal professional desire has not died, however my allegiance to an airline died on 12/09/01.
If you DO pay for your endorsement it is yours, not theirs, therefore have no qualms about moving on should you desire.
Cheers
galdian
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A CPL Pilot has a finite life.
We all have a maximum earning timeline after which either a medical issue or age will restrict each and every one of us from Command in the pointy end.
Whilst I applaud the principled out there - the reality is that we should all try and make the most of what we have (youth and a valid medical) while we have got it.
Do what you have to do - as long as it doesn't screw or white-ant anyone else or the companies you work for.
We all have a maximum earning timeline after which either a medical issue or age will restrict each and every one of us from Command in the pointy end.
Whilst I applaud the principled out there - the reality is that we should all try and make the most of what we have (youth and a valid medical) while we have got it.
Do what you have to do - as long as it doesn't screw or white-ant anyone else or the companies you work for.
Fellas I think we all know it comes down to money in the end.. the ultimate root of all evil.. especially in aviation.
All I can say is that by paying upfront for my endorsement, doing the numbers, I'm about $500 000 - $750 000 min better off over my life time.
For those that arn't paying, good for you, but you might as well throw $500 000 on a number playing roulette because they are the odds you are gambling with .... and there are plenty of people out there who think the same which means you may find yourselves well and truly out of luck.
All I can say is that by paying upfront for my endorsement, doing the numbers, I'm about $500 000 - $750 000 min better off over my life time.
For those that arn't paying, good for you, but you might as well throw $500 000 on a number playing roulette because they are the odds you are gambling with .... and there are plenty of people out there who think the same which means you may find yourselves well and truly out of luck.
Seasonally Adjusted
Do you think I should sit back and wait for an Essendon charter company to pay for my CPL and MECIR?
But just remember, when it does happen you will be taking a drop in pay.
"Any flybys with that sir?"
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Cheers for the insight guys, and Galdian - thank you for your insight from the other end of the tunnel.
The views and opinions expressed in this thread have certainly left one with something to think about...being principled could be a very expensive stance. Having said that, if we ALL decided to stop paying for endorsements then surely it must send a message to Management?? I know, I know....it's like expecting world peace.
Rich-Fine-Green - you point out an interesting consideration...especially for me at the start of my career and being nearly a decade older than most of my colleagues. Those friends I have from days-of-old who are currently flying are mostly Captains with the regionals or F/Os on heavy metal, and I wonder if I am 'cutting my nose off to spite my face' as one poster put it, which could put me well into my thirties before I start earning a reasonable salary...
Having said that, those operators I'd like to get a gig with are paying for endorsements, so I'll try going down that road before resorting to other options.
Many thanks for the balanced and considerate responses guys, I was expecting to get slaughtered....NF cheers for posting this thread.
LP
The views and opinions expressed in this thread have certainly left one with something to think about...being principled could be a very expensive stance. Having said that, if we ALL decided to stop paying for endorsements then surely it must send a message to Management?? I know, I know....it's like expecting world peace.
Rich-Fine-Green - you point out an interesting consideration...especially for me at the start of my career and being nearly a decade older than most of my colleagues. Those friends I have from days-of-old who are currently flying are mostly Captains with the regionals or F/Os on heavy metal, and I wonder if I am 'cutting my nose off to spite my face' as one poster put it, which could put me well into my thirties before I start earning a reasonable salary...
Having said that, those operators I'd like to get a gig with are paying for endorsements, so I'll try going down that road before resorting to other options.
Many thanks for the balanced and considerate responses guys, I was expecting to get slaughtered....NF cheers for posting this thread.
LP
Last edited by Launchpad McQuack; 10th Sep 2007 at 00:24. Reason: typos
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5 airline jet type ratings with 2 airlines in the last 10 years- all paid for by my employers. Pay for training- only if you are desperate or below average.
Good on you Night Flight.
Good on you Night Flight.
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The problem is that GA is so f#@ked up pilots want out. Flying pieces of junk around the country for scums for **** money, you'll just about do anything to get out. Rex and the like are clearly only marginally better.
Good on all you pilots who refuse to pay. This is the perfect time for pilots to stick together and refuse. If every pilot refused, they would be forced to pay for the training, like they bloody well should.
DON'T PAY !!!
Good on all you pilots who refuse to pay. This is the perfect time for pilots to stick together and refuse. If every pilot refused, they would be forced to pay for the training, like they bloody well should.
DON'T PAY !!!