AIPA allows SH pay for endorsement
Thread Starter
AIPA allows SH pay for endorsement
Completely out of kilter with the industry the reformed AIPA has endorsed EBA 7 which is now being voted on and in effect makes all new Captains pay 34K in reduced wages just so existing pilots can maintain CPI.
What type of association do we have that organizes a paycut for it's members.
God help us as we run into LH EBA negotiations.
How much will a 380 Captain have to save up under this brave new system.
What type of association do we have that organizes a paycut for it's members.
God help us as we run into LH EBA negotiations.
How much will a 380 Captain have to save up under this brave new system.
Thread Starter
Bastardry
But Capt Kremin Capt Kremin, the peasants are revolting.
From what I'm told 95% of potential captains in the next few years are not on the 737 and so don't get a vote - no democracy at work here.
Looks like the new AIPA is no different to the old - if it ain't the 744 LHS it doesn't matter.
BTW any one hear how the 380 negotiations are going?
From what I'm told 95% of potential captains in the next few years are not on the 737 and so don't get a vote - no democracy at work here.
Looks like the new AIPA is no different to the old - if it ain't the 744 LHS it doesn't matter.
BTW any one hear how the 380 negotiations are going?
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Mud Skipper - whilst I understand the problem, and dont necessarily agree with the system - the same can be said for the last Long Haul EBA - it was a crap deal, it traded a pay increase for the (now defunct) Singapore S/O Basing - I couldnt vote on that, yet I plan to return to L/H.
Where does it end - maybe a unified EBA ?
Where does it end - maybe a unified EBA ?
Thread Starter
Blue,
The principle issue here is the AIPA REFORM GROUP has instigated or approved a scenario which will set one pilot groups interests against another.
There is no question SH Captains will en mass vote for this deal and in doing so display to the company just how un unified the pilot body can be.
God help us when AIPA is doing the oldpaddocks job.
Perhaps this attitude is the reason for the faction fighting in what was the ARG.
Mailine pilot against pilot, well done boys.
Anyhow you makes the NJS pilots look like industrial warriors - good luck to them btw.
The principle issue here is the AIPA REFORM GROUP has instigated or approved a scenario which will set one pilot groups interests against another.
There is no question SH Captains will en mass vote for this deal and in doing so display to the company just how un unified the pilot body can be.
God help us when AIPA is doing the oldpaddocks job.
Perhaps this attitude is the reason for the faction fighting in what was the ARG.
Mailine pilot against pilot, well done boys.
Anyhow you makes the NJS pilots look like industrial warriors - good luck to them btw.
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The principle issue here is the AIPA REFORM GROUP has instigated or approved a scenario which will set one pilot groups interests against another.
Of course, the company may draw a line in the sand and it will be up to the SH pilots if they are willing to cross it.
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Me thinks this is absolutely hilarious.
Typical of the bulls+!t mentallity that the AIPA Com is adorned with.
They crap on about JQ and the JPC selling out there members, then stuff not only the new borne, but also the existing SH crew.
What a pack of Wan**ers.
Totally hipocritical, if it is not a 744 then it aint worth Sh1T!!
Captain Woods needs to take a good hard look at himself and what he is doing to his crew.
There exists some good guys in the COM, and not surprisingly they are all from the 73.
At least the JPC had the purpose of securing the work, controlling the seniority list and then going about improving the T's and C's.
What is Captain Woods cunning plan?
Typical of the bulls+!t mentallity that the AIPA Com is adorned with.
They crap on about JQ and the JPC selling out there members, then stuff not only the new borne, but also the existing SH crew.
What a pack of Wan**ers.
Totally hipocritical, if it is not a 744 then it aint worth Sh1T!!
Captain Woods needs to take a good hard look at himself and what he is doing to his crew.
There exists some good guys in the COM, and not surprisingly they are all from the 73.
At least the JPC had the purpose of securing the work, controlling the seniority list and then going about improving the T's and C's.
What is Captain Woods cunning plan?
Popgun
The negotiators for the SH EBA were B737 pilots - not a single B744 pilot in sight. I gather you have never had to negotiate an EBA - it's much easier to sit on the sidelines and just slag off.
Having said that, I admit I'm in agreeance with Mud Skipper. It is morally wrong to allow management to bring in a "pay for endorsement/promotion" system.
The negotiators for the SH EBA were B737 pilots - not a single B744 pilot in sight. I gather you have never had to negotiate an EBA - it's much easier to sit on the sidelines and just slag off.
Having said that, I admit I'm in agreeance with Mud Skipper. It is morally wrong to allow management to bring in a "pay for endorsement/promotion" system.
Nunc est bibendum
Readers who are unaware of the EBA deal should note that it isn't a 'pay for your endorsement' per se because there is no money outlaid and no money sal sacked for the endorsement or even mention of 'training pay' or so on. What has happened is that there are reduced payments for the first few years in rank (with no mention of why) which results in a saving to the company equal to about the endorsement costs.
The theory from the negotiating team is that this was the best they could do with the various angles they'd tried and so they protected the 'top rate' of pay which Captains would be on rather than distribute towards the bottom end and not have a pay rise for the last couple of years of the deal. Of course, some contributors believe that a pay rise for every year of the deal should be a given as well as protecting current first year rates- a not unreasonable proposition- but at the end of the day, this is the best the SH EBA guys could do with the current negotiations and it's up to the SH pilot group to express their joy or otherwise with the proposal.
PS: I'm one of the guys that would be affected by the reduced conditions for Captains....I'd hate to be accused of having a 'hidden' agenda.
The theory from the negotiating team is that this was the best they could do with the various angles they'd tried and so they protected the 'top rate' of pay which Captains would be on rather than distribute towards the bottom end and not have a pay rise for the last couple of years of the deal. Of course, some contributors believe that a pay rise for every year of the deal should be a given as well as protecting current first year rates- a not unreasonable proposition- but at the end of the day, this is the best the SH EBA guys could do with the current negotiations and it's up to the SH pilot group to express their joy or otherwise with the proposal.
PS: I'm one of the guys that would be affected by the reduced conditions for Captains....I'd hate to be accused of having a 'hidden' agenda.
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Looking at the table - there is a $4.30 dollar pay cut for NEW captains in 2008 - followed by a series of 3% pay increases. A NEW Captain in 2009, will be above the existing Captains hourly rate by just under $3. A NEW Captain in 2010, will be $10 per hour above the current rate.
If you are an existing Captain, then there is no cut at all.
If you are an existing Captain, then there is no cut at all.
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Jeez, is'nt this interesting.
Up front pay for endo, sal sac, training pay or less pay for initial promotion.
Matters not how you dress it up, or what you call it.................IT IS PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING.
If you get promoted and are earning less than everybody else doing the same job, you are PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING ( in capitals twice for the slower among us )
If this gets voted in there will be a fair few that will have to step down off their " you've lowered the standards for everybody " soapboxes, me thinks
Up front pay for endo, sal sac, training pay or less pay for initial promotion.
Matters not how you dress it up, or what you call it.................IT IS PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING.
If you get promoted and are earning less than everybody else doing the same job, you are PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING ( in capitals twice for the slower among us )
If this gets voted in there will be a fair few that will have to step down off their " you've lowered the standards for everybody " soapboxes, me thinks
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Well I neither I am not particularly happy with this deal -but before anyone gets carried away lovely little emotive quotes - bear in mind these figures of 34k have been taken off someones privately built home MS excel spreadsheet - so I am not sure how the figures have been actually come up with - I suspect there is a bit of liberal license being applied - and everyone has since joined the bandwagon without substantiating the facts, also this lovely little emotive quote of PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING is a GEM - I have not read any material which says you have to pay 1 cent for training.
In terms of coming from different fleets (unless you are golden bidding a captain backwards from 744/767/330)- I am sure (other than maybe a 744 F/O)for most F/O's it would be a substantial pay increase. Bearing in mind - these things are being looked at and quoted only in isolation of the entire package.
As I said It is not a particularly good deal, it is however significantly better than the last - I am not sure if it is worth a YES or NO Vote (it would be a brave person who says we cannot get better - i think we have heard that before), but rather than dressing up the facts/and figures with some add lib, maybe people should talk to the SH reps and get some real information, so you can have an informed opinion.
In terms of coming from different fleets (unless you are golden bidding a captain backwards from 744/767/330)- I am sure (other than maybe a 744 F/O)for most F/O's it would be a substantial pay increase. Bearing in mind - these things are being looked at and quoted only in isolation of the entire package.
As I said It is not a particularly good deal, it is however significantly better than the last - I am not sure if it is worth a YES or NO Vote (it would be a brave person who says we cannot get better - i think we have heard that before), but rather than dressing up the facts/and figures with some add lib, maybe people should talk to the SH reps and get some real information, so you can have an informed opinion.
Nunc est bibendum
If you get promoted and are earning less than everybody else doing the same job, you are PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING ( in capitals twice for the slower among us )
Whilst I'm always one for change and a radical overhaul of the pay system to redistribute things towards a more equitable outcome (F/Os on the 767 work longer and harder than any S/O on the B744 and should be remunerated accordingly....spare me the arguments folks, I've seen both aircraft), you can't just throw lines like yours out there cunning and not expect to get smacked down.
Thread Starter
Captain Kremin,
This vote is in the bag, existing eligible Captains plus those F/O’s already with training slots hold the numbers and all benefit from this travesty. Even if all the F/O were against the deal they could still not win and you could probably expect some to take the fast money as they are too far away from promotion to worry about the long term. One pundit has suggested a 70% YES vote and I would not be surprised if it was even higher.
Does this make it a good deal thou, NO, it simply means those able to cast a vote are satisfied, in politics it’s called Pork Barrelling and it stinks which ever way you take it and the Association should be above that type of behaviour.
topgun0007
Depends on where you sit I suppose. Although not directly affected I’m saddened as this action weakens one of the few (partially) effective pilots unions in Australia. The tone of WK on Qrewroom sums up this up with his laughter striking to the bone.
I fear if IW does have a plan it’s just that, a plan, this vote on the other hand is reality for as you say their ‘new born’ and reflects badly on those willing to support it in the first place.
Keg,
As cunninglinguist says;
The association is moving money out of the
hands to give others the CPI they should be regardless entitled to.
Well I never heard of them trying the angle NJS is on. Only when the aircraft are about to be parked will the company honestly negotiate – up until then were just a pack of S*ft C*cks as a certain CEO called us.
Blueloo,
How about you factor in the CPI in those figures and then see what is happening. For that matter try using a CPI of 5%+ which is what’s truly happening to our demographic.
True it’s an increase for any F/O upgrading but it’s 7.5% less (reducing) for the first three years – apart from the 737 F/O on the negotiating committee who’s Command will still be at the full rate.
Keg,
I’m not against different pay rates for years of service but this is not how it should be bought in.
This plan makes Machiavelli look like a saint.
BTW who remembers what the trade off was when the previous graduated pay rates was removed?
You don't have to vote it in
Does this make it a good deal thou, NO, it simply means those able to cast a vote are satisfied, in politics it’s called Pork Barrelling and it stinks which ever way you take it and the Association should be above that type of behaviour.
topgun0007
absolutely hilarious
I fear if IW does have a plan it’s just that, a plan, this vote on the other hand is reality for as you say their ‘new born’ and reflects badly on those willing to support it in the first place.
Keg,
As cunninglinguist says;
Matters not how you dress it up, or what you call it.................IT IS PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING
new born
this was the best they could do with the various angles they'd tried
Blueloo,
How about you factor in the CPI in those figures and then see what is happening. For that matter try using a CPI of 5%+ which is what’s truly happening to our demographic.
True it’s an increase for any F/O upgrading but it’s 7.5% less (reducing) for the first three years – apart from the 737 F/O on the negotiating committee who’s Command will still be at the full rate.
Keg,
I’m not against different pay rates for years of service but this is not how it should be bought in.
This plan makes Machiavelli look like a saint.
BTW who remembers what the trade off was when the previous graduated pay rates was removed?
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Mud skipper, you keep saying AIPA is responsible for this. All that has happened is that the negotiations have got to a point where AIPA feels as though it can endorse this deal as acceptable and then put it up for a vote.
If it is as bad as you say then it will be voted down. If not, then the majority of SH plots can live with it. If they can't live with it then I am sure there AIPA will back the SH pilots with any industrial action they wish to take, because I am sure that is what will be required to get a better deal than this.
So the question is asked of the SH pilots, What are you prepared to accept and what are you prepared to do to get it?
Anyone saying this is paying for endorsement is not aware of how it all works.
I didn't get full rates for any rank until I was in the company for 12 years. Was that paying for my endorsements? What a crock of Sh!t
If it is as bad as you say then it will be voted down. If not, then the majority of SH plots can live with it. If they can't live with it then I am sure there AIPA will back the SH pilots with any industrial action they wish to take, because I am sure that is what will be required to get a better deal than this.
So the question is asked of the SH pilots, What are you prepared to accept and what are you prepared to do to get it?
Anyone saying this is paying for endorsement is not aware of how it all works.
I didn't get full rates for any rank until I was in the company for 12 years. Was that paying for my endorsements? What a crock of Sh!t
Thread Starter
Kremin,
How I wish I lived in such a simple world.
Unfortunately this insidiously deal is sure to get up as SELF INTEREST will rule the day and yes AIPA is responsible for allowing this divisive temptation to be put to the members.
The agreement is a sell out and should not have passed the COM. Forget calling it paying for an endorsement if you must, it's just a paycut endorsed by the Association. Great work fellas.
Damn if I can get WK's laughter out of my head.
How I wish I lived in such a simple world.
If it is as bad as you say then it will be voted down.
The agreement is a sell out and should not have passed the COM. Forget calling it paying for an endorsement if you must, it's just a paycut endorsed by the Association. Great work fellas.
Damn if I can get WK's laughter out of my head.
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it's just a paycut endorsed by the Association
AIPA is responsible for allowing
The agreement is a sell out and should not have passed the COM
Why does Democracy scare you? Because you're much smarter than the rest of us? We don't have your brilliant insight, therefore we'll be led down the garden path. Please.
Thread Starter
OK TT, I'll concede we are talking a payscale reduction presented by the association to be put to the vote by people who will not be hurt by such.
The question is not about democracy but protecting and representing all members and this EBA fails to do so as the pork barrelling involved adversely effects those unable to defend themselves with a vote.
Anyhow, voting closes at 4pm, I guess we'll have a result by Monday if not close of business tonight. God help us with the LH EBA (No I don't mean Geoff).
The question is not about democracy but protecting and representing all members and this EBA fails to do so as the pork barrelling involved adversely effects those unable to defend themselves with a vote.
Anyhow, voting closes at 4pm, I guess we'll have a result by Monday if not close of business tonight. God help us with the LH EBA (No I don't mean Geoff).