Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations
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Amusing Little Person
Its always amusing when domestic pursers compare themselves to international CSMs
Most CSSs are better,more experienced managers than a purser.
You dont spend long enough with your customers to even discover what their concerns and problems are.
You lot are just a bunch of yo yos...upand down all day.
If you are so well qualified my pretentious little friend why are you wasting away being a domestic purser?
Rio Tinto are looking for a new CEO .Why dont you put your hand up?
Most CSSs are better,more experienced managers than a purser.
You dont spend long enough with your customers to even discover what their concerns and problems are.
You lot are just a bunch of yo yos...upand down all day.
If you are so well qualified my pretentious little friend why are you wasting away being a domestic purser?
Rio Tinto are looking for a new CEO .Why dont you put your hand up?
Join Date: Nov 2007
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My God!!
You lot really need to get over yourselves.
Essentially, we ALL do the exact same job. Some do it in 1 hour, some do it in 14 hours. Whether we are "yo yo's" or not, we are all flight attendants working in a very challenging environment. Some would argue that short haul have alot more pressures and exposure to more challeges than long haul purely due to the sheer amount of extra sectors than long haul. Long haul may argue the amount of time in the air and time zone changes make for harder work. I think its swings and roundabouts.
Call me naive but I wish we could all just get along!!!!
The company would be loving all this bickering. We are playing into their hands.
You lot really need to get over yourselves.
Essentially, we ALL do the exact same job. Some do it in 1 hour, some do it in 14 hours. Whether we are "yo yo's" or not, we are all flight attendants working in a very challenging environment. Some would argue that short haul have alot more pressures and exposure to more challeges than long haul purely due to the sheer amount of extra sectors than long haul. Long haul may argue the amount of time in the air and time zone changes make for harder work. I think its swings and roundabouts.
Call me naive but I wish we could all just get along!!!!
The company would be loving all this bickering. We are playing into their hands.
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whatever6719,
You have got to remember that LH Cabin Crew consider themselves to be gods gift to just about everything. And they'll be the first ones to tell you!
This "B Scale" EBA is nothing more than what's in it for me, me, me!
Quite frankly, give me a short haul crew any day!
You have got to remember that LH Cabin Crew consider themselves to be gods gift to just about everything. And they'll be the first ones to tell you!
This "B Scale" EBA is nothing more than what's in it for me, me, me!
Quite frankly, give me a short haul crew any day!
Join Date: Feb 2007
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u5mj & Co....
Did SH sit down at the last EBA all concerned about LH losing flying? No, they did not. You now expect the LH crew to consider MAM casuals?
Your predicament is not ideal, having labour hire companies and off shore bases hurts us too, but we have had to adapt. Please just leave the issue alone. A SH FA has never been able to go into LH directly as a CSM/CSS and I cannot fathom how you expect an external applicant to be able to.
Hate the game, not the player.
Your predicament is not ideal, having labour hire companies and off shore bases hurts us too, but we have had to adapt. Please just leave the issue alone. A SH FA has never been able to go into LH directly as a CSM/CSS and I cannot fathom how you expect an external applicant to be able to.
Hate the game, not the player.
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Domestics Dilemma
Longhaul have an excellent outcome with EBA8.Once it is accepted...and it should be...the domestics are going to have a problem negotiating their next EBA.
They have no one to shaft in order to improve their position.
Oops..wait a minute...on second thought....they can shaft themselves.
They have no one to shaft in order to improve their position.
Oops..wait a minute...on second thought....they can shaft themselves.
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hear hear samford
to all our 'distressed' short haul colleagues, maybe you should be looking at your union and some of the decisions they recommended for you? Accountability starts from the top.
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Why shouldnt a SH CSM be able to transfer straight into LH as a CSM?
Most have plenty of experiance, also been flying regional sectors now for a few years - on aircraft that hold 300 pax with long flying times eg.BOM - more demanding pax on those with a more fragile IFE system!!
Not to mention that a bunch of SH CSM's did the whole LHR base.
Most have plenty of experiance, also been flying regional sectors now for a few years - on aircraft that hold 300 pax with long flying times eg.BOM - more demanding pax on those with a more fragile IFE system!!
Not to mention that a bunch of SH CSM's did the whole LHR base.
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syd shaul
because they are domestic pursers with domestic purser attitudes and ideas!
it takes us years to re train the domestics when they come over!
Domestic Pursers = LH CSM..............different type, will never be equal in experience.
it takes us years to re train the domestics when they come over!
Domestic Pursers = LH CSM..............different type, will never be equal in experience.
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I'm not going to even get into the whole shorthaul vs longhaul debate (yet). I've got my opinions...
But I don't understand why a few of my fellow longhaulers are attacking u5mj?? This person has been making sensible posts and some of you are slamming him/her unreasonably.
This person is obviously someone with a lot of experience and simply wants a job along side us. They realise that they won't be able to do it under our pay and conditions and seem pretty accepting of the conditions that it will be under. And they don't hold anything against us for this.
Stop being so reactionary. Start thinking before you post, people. These forums may be anonymous, but there are still people with real feelings at the other end of post...
But I don't understand why a few of my fellow longhaulers are attacking u5mj?? This person has been making sensible posts and some of you are slamming him/her unreasonably.
This person is obviously someone with a lot of experience and simply wants a job along side us. They realise that they won't be able to do it under our pay and conditions and seem pretty accepting of the conditions that it will be under. And they don't hold anything against us for this.
Stop being so reactionary. Start thinking before you post, people. These forums may be anonymous, but there are still people with real feelings at the other end of post...
Last edited by Flugbegleiter; 11th Dec 2007 at 04:14.
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Here we go, the big divisions are opening up. Long Haul gets something that makes them happy, and immediately starts putting the boot into shorthaul, MAM, LHR base, anyone who they can think of.
The continued comments of how high and almighty LH CSM's are is depressing. You people are so important given you are in charge as you like to call it of 400 people. Something that gives you management status equal to a company CEO with a similar amount of employees. To say other flight attendants are not suitable for the role is plain arrogant.
At the cinema the other night, there were over 1000 people inside the complex, and the duty manager there (about 21 years old that night) doesn't walk around bragging that they are responsible for 1000+ people and therefore command the respect of a company CEO. But that person was responsible for getting them all out if there was a fire and evacuation required (ie. they had to open the doors). Not a much different role to a CSM really.
The QF LHCC mentality of being super important, much better qualified, harder working, higher skilled, blah blah compared to all other flight attendants is rubbish. Just the ramblings of a deluded bunch of crusty old boilers who have done nothing else in life.
The more you lot harp on about how good you are and how bad everybody else is the more you will suffer in years to come. The more they are alienated, the bigger the wave against you next time around. Look at the numbers. Will current LHCC have a majority voice next time around? Look a bit further forward than yesterday.
Divide and conquer. Glad I don't work for QF anymore. Too many of you would not survive in the real world.
The continued comments of how high and almighty LH CSM's are is depressing. You people are so important given you are in charge as you like to call it of 400 people. Something that gives you management status equal to a company CEO with a similar amount of employees. To say other flight attendants are not suitable for the role is plain arrogant.
At the cinema the other night, there were over 1000 people inside the complex, and the duty manager there (about 21 years old that night) doesn't walk around bragging that they are responsible for 1000+ people and therefore command the respect of a company CEO. But that person was responsible for getting them all out if there was a fire and evacuation required (ie. they had to open the doors). Not a much different role to a CSM really.
The QF LHCC mentality of being super important, much better qualified, harder working, higher skilled, blah blah compared to all other flight attendants is rubbish. Just the ramblings of a deluded bunch of crusty old boilers who have done nothing else in life.
The more you lot harp on about how good you are and how bad everybody else is the more you will suffer in years to come. The more they are alienated, the bigger the wave against you next time around. Look at the numbers. Will current LHCC have a majority voice next time around? Look a bit further forward than yesterday.
Divide and conquer. Glad I don't work for QF anymore. Too many of you would not survive in the real world.
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The Rivalry..An Historical Context
TAA employed women...Qantas employed men.
TAA women were always "special" and the QF boys were so rough.
The Ansett "Girls" and Qantas "Boys" always got along well.
TAA always had the "princess"mentality
Then when the so called merger happened that mentality and the dobbing moved across to Longhaul.Its always an uncomfortable arrangement.
The resentment escalated when Longhaul crew began to migrate to domestic flying.The last domestic EBA was designed to stem that flow because of the domestic girls were losing their precious seniority.
The last domestic EBA was when the war really began.Most longhaul crew felt what had been done was contemptible....reduction in bands payment..transfer of flying etc..
Now with this new LH EBA domestics have been dealt out of the equation.
Why do you think management is happy to give LH back a large slice of regional flying?Simple...we do it better.
Domestics and the LHR basing is another story...its a screw up...the blind leading the near sighted.Contrary to the spin the LHR base is still in existence because its cheap.
To think that a purser is equivalent to a CSM in capability is nonsensical.Accept the reality.It has nothing to with being arrogant..its just a fact.
Qantas LH had done well for 80 years without any domestic assitance.
You guys really need to get over your domestic mentality and concentrate on your next EBA...you have some huge challenges.Be careful that domestic isnt overrun by casuals and all the old dears become an anachronistic minority.
Our future now is pretty much secure...yours is not.
Leave us alone and concentrate on your imminent problems
TAA women were always "special" and the QF boys were so rough.
The Ansett "Girls" and Qantas "Boys" always got along well.
TAA always had the "princess"mentality
Then when the so called merger happened that mentality and the dobbing moved across to Longhaul.Its always an uncomfortable arrangement.
The resentment escalated when Longhaul crew began to migrate to domestic flying.The last domestic EBA was designed to stem that flow because of the domestic girls were losing their precious seniority.
The last domestic EBA was when the war really began.Most longhaul crew felt what had been done was contemptible....reduction in bands payment..transfer of flying etc..
Now with this new LH EBA domestics have been dealt out of the equation.
Why do you think management is happy to give LH back a large slice of regional flying?Simple...we do it better.
Domestics and the LHR basing is another story...its a screw up...the blind leading the near sighted.Contrary to the spin the LHR base is still in existence because its cheap.
To think that a purser is equivalent to a CSM in capability is nonsensical.Accept the reality.It has nothing to with being arrogant..its just a fact.
Qantas LH had done well for 80 years without any domestic assitance.
You guys really need to get over your domestic mentality and concentrate on your next EBA...you have some huge challenges.Be careful that domestic isnt overrun by casuals and all the old dears become an anachronistic minority.
Our future now is pretty much secure...yours is not.
Leave us alone and concentrate on your imminent problems
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extinct
ahh white pointer with comments like that you are in danger of becoming as rare as your named species. 'The real world' hero statement doesn't wash mate along with your cinema manager-CSM comparison. You and your mate U5mj can sit together (hands on crotch) and compare 'qualifications' and 'real world experience' over a milky soy decaf latte, the preferred choice of beverage for the self indulged.
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Although shorthaul will only retain 25% of the regional flying, this will essentially consist of PVG PEK and HKG. This is to efficiently utilise the large number of Contract C Mandarin and Cantonese speakers.
BOM CGK MNL NRT and some Tasmans (those not already operated by Jitconnict) will return to longhaul.
In addition, the 767 will become a purely domestic aircraft and will then be exclusively operated by shorthaul. All new 737-800's will be operated by shorthaul.
There is still a question mark over the 743, as to who will operate this aircraft when it becomes purely domestic.
BOM CGK MNL NRT and some Tasmans (those not already operated by Jitconnict) will return to longhaul.
In addition, the 767 will become a purely domestic aircraft and will then be exclusively operated by shorthaul. All new 737-800's will be operated by shorthaul.
There is still a question mark over the 743, as to who will operate this aircraft when it becomes purely domestic.
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COuple of points of clarification...
The 25% of regional flying that will be done by SHort Haul will essentially be the tasmans and some flying out of the Perth base and cairns base. If long haul did that international flying it would potentially affect the viability of those two short haul bases and that is certainly not the intention of the LH Division..
I would envisage that the 560 recruits into long haul before june next year will potentially come from the MAM Casual pool as many of them are looking for Careers....
The languages skills necessary for the PVG HKG and other asians ports already exist in the LH division and as such, short haul will not likely be getting them.
the 743 is a wide bodied aircraft and under the divisional flying agreement is the flying domain of the LH division. I dont envisage that it will be flown by other than long haul crew.
However, if short haul wanted to fly it domestically around australia i think that there would be a number of overjoyed long haul crew that would be glad to see the back of them. To be quite frank though, as much as we would like to see the back of them , short haul crew are not going to be flying 747 any time in the near future.
The 25% of regional flying that will be done by SHort Haul will essentially be the tasmans and some flying out of the Perth base and cairns base. If long haul did that international flying it would potentially affect the viability of those two short haul bases and that is certainly not the intention of the LH Division..
I would envisage that the 560 recruits into long haul before june next year will potentially come from the MAM Casual pool as many of them are looking for Careers....
The languages skills necessary for the PVG HKG and other asians ports already exist in the LH division and as such, short haul will not likely be getting them.
the 743 is a wide bodied aircraft and under the divisional flying agreement is the flying domain of the LH division. I dont envisage that it will be flown by other than long haul crew.
However, if short haul wanted to fly it domestically around australia i think that there would be a number of overjoyed long haul crew that would be glad to see the back of them. To be quite frank though, as much as we would like to see the back of them , short haul crew are not going to be flying 747 any time in the near future.
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Hmmm interesting movements.
Just noticed on the QF crew website that applications are now open for AKL BASED F/A's to be employed by QCCA in Mel on six (6) and twelve (12) month contracts starting on the 24/12/07. T&C's appear to be (as has been stated here before) ie: "B" scale conditions.
I am surprised this has started before the EBA 8 agreement has been ratified.
Just noticed on the QF crew website that applications are now open for AKL BASED F/A's to be employed by QCCA in Mel on six (6) and twelve (12) month contracts starting on the 24/12/07. T&C's appear to be (as has been stated here before) ie: "B" scale conditions.
I am surprised this has started before the EBA 8 agreement has been ratified.
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P747
Are you able to clarify a few things.....
1. What is Regional flying? S/H don't have a real definition, like what I heard as AEST +3hrs.Does this mean Short Haul will do CGK, BOM, MNL?
2. Will L/H fly on 767?
3. will QCCA have part time? The casuals mentioned in the proposed agreement, will they be 'labour hire'?
additional q's....
So really QCCA = QCUK - 747 only?
New recruits on A380 remain there for life, no transfer to L/H?
Are you able to clarify a few things.....
1. What is Regional flying? S/H don't have a real definition, like what I heard as AEST +3hrs.Does this mean Short Haul will do CGK, BOM, MNL?
2. Will L/H fly on 767?
3. will QCCA have part time? The casuals mentioned in the proposed agreement, will they be 'labour hire'?
additional q's....
So really QCCA = QCUK - 747 only?
New recruits on A380 remain there for life, no transfer to L/H?
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ok here goes 
the term regional flying is confusing... Under the divisional flying agreement A330 and 767 International flying was shared between LH/SH
SH got 25%
LH got 30%
and Qantas had 45% to distribute as it wished.....Because SH so many more hours than LH and only get 12 hours rest everywhere and the MAM casuals and SH crew are paid a lot less than L:H crew, Qantas gave their 45% to SH.
This resulted in surpluses of crew in LH, which led to redundancies and forced LSL and the changing circumstances of the LH Division.
This EBA rectifies those issues and sends the 45% plus the 30% back to LH ..this effectively gives 75% of the A330 and 767 INternational flying to LONG HAul where it rightfully sits.
When the 787 comes, it will be flown internationally and domestically. Where it is flown internationally all (100%) of international flying will be done by Long Haul crew as part of this EBA arrangement.
the predominant international flying done by short haul after this eba is approved will be trans tasman flying and some out of perth and cairns which will be the 25% originally promised to short haul.
QCCA will employ crew on both A380 and in the current LH world. Those in the LH world will operate all current and new aircraft that current LH crew fly and sit under them in seniority but will have a different pay and work rules structure. They will be part of EBA and not on a contract.
QCCA crew will only have their rosters constructed after current LH crew have bid using seniority, and there will be no work either "pulled for them or reserved for them. for all intents and purposes they will be junior to the current crew.
Crew from the current LH can go to A380 on the conditions negotiated for A380 which in essence in the LOndon base work rules except that they will get a substantial salary top up to ensure no loss of income over in A380 division.
Crew that go over to start with (1st 2 years) 4 A/C, will be able to return to their original base or stay if they wish with ongoing salary top up arrangements.
ANy current LH crew that goes to A380 after start up will also get the salary top up arrangement indefinitely.
This is a great outcome given the current laws and circumstances facing crew.
the term regional flying is confusing... Under the divisional flying agreement A330 and 767 International flying was shared between LH/SH
SH got 25%
LH got 30%
and Qantas had 45% to distribute as it wished.....Because SH so many more hours than LH and only get 12 hours rest everywhere and the MAM casuals and SH crew are paid a lot less than L:H crew, Qantas gave their 45% to SH.
This resulted in surpluses of crew in LH, which led to redundancies and forced LSL and the changing circumstances of the LH Division.
This EBA rectifies those issues and sends the 45% plus the 30% back to LH ..this effectively gives 75% of the A330 and 767 INternational flying to LONG HAul where it rightfully sits.
When the 787 comes, it will be flown internationally and domestically. Where it is flown internationally all (100%) of international flying will be done by Long Haul crew as part of this EBA arrangement.
the predominant international flying done by short haul after this eba is approved will be trans tasman flying and some out of perth and cairns which will be the 25% originally promised to short haul.
QCCA will employ crew on both A380 and in the current LH world. Those in the LH world will operate all current and new aircraft that current LH crew fly and sit under them in seniority but will have a different pay and work rules structure. They will be part of EBA and not on a contract.
QCCA crew will only have their rosters constructed after current LH crew have bid using seniority, and there will be no work either "pulled for them or reserved for them. for all intents and purposes they will be junior to the current crew.
Crew from the current LH can go to A380 on the conditions negotiated for A380 which in essence in the LOndon base work rules except that they will get a substantial salary top up to ensure no loss of income over in A380 division.
Crew that go over to start with (1st 2 years) 4 A/C, will be able to return to their original base or stay if they wish with ongoing salary top up arrangements.
ANy current LH crew that goes to A380 after start up will also get the salary top up arrangement indefinitely.
This is a great outcome given the current laws and circumstances facing crew.