Jetstar dumps MEL-HNL
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I'm not surprised this route didn't work. When QF had QF3 to HNL start in MEL and go MEL-SYD-HNL with the same aircraft and flight number, there were only ever about 40-50 pax starting in MEL. This would increase a little in school holidays, but not by much.
QF did used to do SYD - SGN and have had a ticket office, with QF staff there for quite a while. So once again with the codeshare and distribution of QF already in place, it is another place they didn't start fresh.
From what I gather Phuket is about the closet they got to starting a route from scratch, but before them Australian Airlines had operated there as seasonal flights for one or two summers.
QF did used to do SYD - SGN and have had a ticket office, with QF staff there for quite a while. So once again with the codeshare and distribution of QF already in place, it is another place they didn't start fresh.
From what I gather Phuket is about the closet they got to starting a route from scratch, but before them Australian Airlines had operated there as seasonal flights for one or two summers.
Kav
You misunderstand. I don't have a problem with the concept of Jetstar - it fill a niche that would have been filled by someone else.
I have a problem with pilots who don't realise the value of their skills and sell themselves for way below the market rate. The J* Intl EBA should never have been signed - that was pure treachery.
You misunderstand. I don't have a problem with the concept of Jetstar - it fill a niche that would have been filled by someone else.
I have a problem with pilots who don't realise the value of their skills and sell themselves for way below the market rate. The J* Intl EBA should never have been signed - that was pure treachery.
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Why are some here so offended that QF provides codeshare assistance to a fully owned subsiduary?
Are those some people equally offended that QF codeshare to Nadi with Air Pacific (45% QF owned)? Lets face it, compared to Air Pac Jetstar pilots are Sheiks!
Or how about the codeshare with Air Vietnam? Is it better that the QF pax go to a foreign carrier paying a bowl of rice and a Dong a day to pilots?
Perhaps some need to put industrial agenda's aside from Business logic.
Why would QF want to operate a route at a loss when Jetstar can operate it at a profit?
Or perhaps it is not Jetstar that is the problem, but that QF pilots are not in the seats?????? After all, I do not remember reading such dedicated vitriol directed at Australian, despite the fact that they BLED the QF purse from day 1. But they did employ pilots off the QF seniority list....
Hmmmmm
Are those some people equally offended that QF codeshare to Nadi with Air Pacific (45% QF owned)? Lets face it, compared to Air Pac Jetstar pilots are Sheiks!
Or how about the codeshare with Air Vietnam? Is it better that the QF pax go to a foreign carrier paying a bowl of rice and a Dong a day to pilots?
Perhaps some need to put industrial agenda's aside from Business logic.
Why would QF want to operate a route at a loss when Jetstar can operate it at a profit?
Or perhaps it is not Jetstar that is the problem, but that QF pilots are not in the seats?????? After all, I do not remember reading such dedicated vitriol directed at Australian, despite the fact that they BLED the QF purse from day 1. But they did employ pilots off the QF seniority list....
Hmmmmm
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Jetstar Here to stay?
Well I would'nt be so confident whether it will be here to stay. I don't hate it or love it I am totally neutral. However the leisure Holiday Market is the first to be hit if people start tightening their belts due to higher debt repayments. I see a future for Jetstar Domestic for sure but I'm still 50/50 whether Jet* international will remain in it's current form.
They are being mauled on the Japan route too at the moment.
I see a future for places like Phuket, Bali, Honolulu etc but I am not convinced it'd going to work on non resort places. I mean for example Japan "Oh cool I got a return fare for $700! Yay Now its just 3 or 4 k for my other 2 weeks there!" I mean if youve got that much money to spend a few hundred bucks is not really much difference to the overall experience IMO (Depending on the 20's year something accountants doing the books
) Theres a big difference being on a hour or 2 domestic run than a 20 hour ordeal to Europe for example.
Even though I am confident Jetstar domestic does have a place, but it better get prepared for an extreme bloody nose from Tiger!
Oh yeah dont bag me for saying its $700 bucks return to Japan I just chose it as an example I dont know what the real fare is but I guess cheap ones are around that
They are being mauled on the Japan route too at the moment.
I see a future for places like Phuket, Bali, Honolulu etc but I am not convinced it'd going to work on non resort places. I mean for example Japan "Oh cool I got a return fare for $700! Yay Now its just 3 or 4 k for my other 2 weeks there!" I mean if youve got that much money to spend a few hundred bucks is not really much difference to the overall experience IMO (Depending on the 20's year something accountants doing the books
) Theres a big difference being on a hour or 2 domestic run than a 20 hour ordeal to Europe for example.Even though I am confident Jetstar domestic does have a place, but it better get prepared for an extreme bloody nose from Tiger!
Oh yeah dont bag me for saying its $700 bucks return to Japan I just chose it as an example I dont know what the real fare is but I guess cheap ones are around that
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I don't mind Jetstar operating on these routes, even if I don't like Jetstar per se. I would rather the QF group do it than a codeshare with someone else.
What I don't like is the way all these new routes are marketed as brand new. All the routes Jetstar have taken over have been operated by QF of Australian with in the last 5 years. They are only brand new for Jetstar, not the QF group.
What I don't like is the way all these new routes are marketed as brand new. All the routes Jetstar have taken over have been operated by QF of Australian with in the last 5 years. They are only brand new for Jetstar, not the QF group.
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KAV, we might ask these guys how many JQ pilots took advantage of the MOU? What? How many? You're kidding, right? They must be crazy for not joining. Hmmm, perhaps it's not the conditions but the culture!
How could mainline compete against VB and the new TIGER? What? another pay freeze on the way...lucky your little step-brother is here to save your arse-and a tough, cheeky little bastard too!
Let's Unite for skyGOD's sake!
How could mainline compete against VB and the new TIGER? What? another pay freeze on the way...lucky your little step-brother is here to save your arse-and a tough, cheeky little bastard too!
Let's Unite for skyGOD's sake!
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Why should QF bail out J*?
My whole point on cost is that J* built nothing, it was gifted everything....From routes to aircraft to underwriting, cost of fuel, a paperclip or a pencil...They paid market price for nothing, otherwise the start up costs would mimick any other start up...But they dont...
You see only so many things can be gifted before the tree from which the bastard child is fed starts to wither....
Interesting, what people think of JQ. Everyone seems to bag it on these forums. So it's cheap and nasty - isnt it doing more good than harm?
Last edited by AN Flyer; 8th Aug 2007 at 14:33.
Nunc est bibendum
AN Flyer, none of your points are incorrect. The gripe from most QF employees is the BS that comes along with it. If J* were charged as a customer for a dispatch at SIT instead of being charged a heavily subsidised rate then the profit would take a small dint. If they were charged for a lot of the equipment that QF has 'gifted' to them then they'd take another dint. Over time these little dints here and there would add up and the profit shown would be significantly less than what it is.
This would mean that the rhetoric around J* would have to be scaled back to more reasonable levels.
As Going Boeing mentioned earlier, most QF drivers are comfortable with the principle behind J* as being a LCC but what we object to is the continued reference to how much money they make whilst mainline is 'expensive' when there are 'costs' that mainline wear that subsidise J*'s profitability.
This would mean that the rhetoric around J* would have to be scaled back to more reasonable levels.
As Going Boeing mentioned earlier, most QF drivers are comfortable with the principle behind J* as being a LCC but what we object to is the continued reference to how much money they make whilst mainline is 'expensive' when there are 'costs' that mainline wear that subsidise J*'s profitability.
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I love this Qf props up Jq rhetoric only one problem,no proof but that's right non req this is a rumour network
. One thing for sure is yes planes and fuel negotiated at qantas rates but the rest, yeah sure.
people so concerned about the profit Jq makes just imagine if they operated on the route Qf makes a profit not just the loss making ones.
Oh no sorry I forgot Qf makes a profit everywhere its just those accounting principles at work again.
. One thing for sure is yes planes and fuel negotiated at qantas rates but the rest, yeah sure.people so concerned about the profit Jq makes just imagine if they operated on the route Qf makes a profit not just the loss making ones.
Oh no sorry I forgot Qf makes a profit everywhere its just those accounting principles at work again.
Nunc est bibendum
How much does JQ pay for a dispatch at SIT? I can tell you that the answer is 'considerably less than any other customer and nil profit to Qantas'.
I can also tell you that JQ has refused payment for some items fixed by QF on the aircraft. A colleague of mine now treats JQ the same way that he used to treat Austrian....if something is needed to be fixed then he gets the Captain to sign the purchase order.
I can also tell you that JQ has refused payment for some items fixed by QF on the aircraft. A colleague of mine now treats JQ the same way that he used to treat Austrian....if something is needed to be fixed then he gets the Captain to sign the purchase order.
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J* ....... Fantastic !
Yes, Jetsars is wonderful. A fantastic disease, all part of the strategy plan created by GD to destroy Q mainline, it's expensive spoilt crew, both cabin and tech, those pesky overpaid lame's that find too many things wrong with the aircraft. The loss of morale and overall shrinking of Q is all part of the grand scheme. End result, big bonus payout for the talented short sighted management. I can just see the robot from "Lost in Space" ....
YOU DO NOT MEET COST OF CAP ITAL ..... YOU MUST BE DES TROYED
FOG
YOU DO NOT MEET COST OF CAP ITAL ..... YOU MUST BE DES TROYED
FOG
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Keg,
Have you considered that JQ are FORCED to be handled by QF out of SIT? The options are a lot cheaper and better I can assure you. Plus with the added bonus that JQ may actually be given some priority rather than 'sorry we are too busy as QF?? has problems, you will be delayed'.
As for QF Engineering on the A330 - don't get me started. Perhaps you should go away and do some research as to the dispatch reliability of QF group A330's. Below WORLD average.
Incedentally SQ have been very happy since they moved over their ground handling from QF. Dispatch reliability improved, customer service improved.....
Yes I am sure Jetstar are rubbing their hands together over the 'mates rates' given by QF .....NOT.
Have you considered that JQ are FORCED to be handled by QF out of SIT? The options are a lot cheaper and better I can assure you. Plus with the added bonus that JQ may actually be given some priority rather than 'sorry we are too busy as QF?? has problems, you will be delayed'.
As for QF Engineering on the A330 - don't get me started. Perhaps you should go away and do some research as to the dispatch reliability of QF group A330's. Below WORLD average.
Incedentally SQ have been very happy since they moved over their ground handling from QF. Dispatch reliability improved, customer service improved.....
Yes I am sure Jetstar are rubbing their hands together over the 'mates rates' given by QF .....NOT.
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Just a few other things that are subsidised by QF:
- Freight runs done by QF B767's going across the tasman without pax for JQ.
- Cleaning time for the JQ INT aircraft is 50 mins. but QF only gets 45 mins.
- JQ pax are flying QF domestically. Code-share!
Only three things but how much would it be costing Mainline???
- Freight runs done by QF B767's going across the tasman without pax for JQ.
- Cleaning time for the JQ INT aircraft is 50 mins. but QF only gets 45 mins.
- JQ pax are flying QF domestically. Code-share!
Only three things but how much would it be costing Mainline???
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Dixon alluded to the "J* will defend the mainline brand, as a vital plank in our defence" then a year later he went on about implying "legacy airline" COSTS were the problem.
My point is simple...
Want me to believe J* is worth what it costs, then compare apples with apples. The reality, is unfortunately for the believers lower wages are merely a smoke screen for an industrial policy designed to drive down terms and conditions at mainline...
Thus if you want me to belieive Geoffrey, (there there you elephant's scrotum lil fella) that my cost base is the issue, show me a true picture of the J* equation...They do not do it, because it does not return its cost of capital, low yield flying the routes we used to fly burning the same fuel, paying same enroute and terminal charges, with the only differential labour costs..What a load of rubbish change hands Geoff..
It is Ian Oldmeadow all over...unfortunately another prune too long in the sun
The arguement about stopping another competitor coming into australia was rubbish Tiger is coming...
Wafer thin margins, low yield routes and new accounting provisions...Let's see how well J* actually does..
My point is simple...
Want me to believe J* is worth what it costs, then compare apples with apples. The reality, is unfortunately for the believers lower wages are merely a smoke screen for an industrial policy designed to drive down terms and conditions at mainline...
Thus if you want me to belieive Geoffrey, (there there you elephant's scrotum lil fella) that my cost base is the issue, show me a true picture of the J* equation...They do not do it, because it does not return its cost of capital, low yield flying the routes we used to fly burning the same fuel, paying same enroute and terminal charges, with the only differential labour costs..What a load of rubbish change hands Geoff..
It is Ian Oldmeadow all over...unfortunately another prune too long in the sun
The arguement about stopping another competitor coming into australia was rubbish Tiger is coming...
Wafer thin margins, low yield routes and new accounting provisions...Let's see how well J* actually does..
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Fine. Hope Jetstar fails. That way Qantas will have to; a) compete head-to-head against Tiger and Virgin on ALL of its routes; b) cede a massive chunk of domestic and international marketshare and; c) aggressively and unilaterally lower mainline wages and conditions to achieve a & b.
If you think Jetstar will get a blood nose from Tiger, just imagine the carnage they'd inflict on Qantas without their "low-cost" line of defence. More than just a mere flesh wound!
As for (c), mainline pilots are aggreived at the impact of the Jetstar pilot's terms and conditions upon their own working conditions. Compared to what may have happened without the establishment and promotion of the Jetstar brand, I think you've done quite well. No wage drops. No forced redundancies. Limited opportunities for promotion at the moment. A stable future. NONE OF YOU WILL LOSE YOUR JOBS. YOU'LL ALL GET COMMANDS, PERHAPS IT WILL JUST TAKE A LITTLE LONGER. YOUR WAGES WILL RISE AGAIN.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. We just fly the planes. If you really want to make a difference, go and get an MBA, climb the corporate ladder and do something about it!
Or, just whinge like a bunch of girls on PPRUNE. That could work too.
If you think Jetstar will get a blood nose from Tiger, just imagine the carnage they'd inflict on Qantas without their "low-cost" line of defence. More than just a mere flesh wound!
As for (c), mainline pilots are aggreived at the impact of the Jetstar pilot's terms and conditions upon their own working conditions. Compared to what may have happened without the establishment and promotion of the Jetstar brand, I think you've done quite well. No wage drops. No forced redundancies. Limited opportunities for promotion at the moment. A stable future. NONE OF YOU WILL LOSE YOUR JOBS. YOU'LL ALL GET COMMANDS, PERHAPS IT WILL JUST TAKE A LITTLE LONGER. YOUR WAGES WILL RISE AGAIN.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. We just fly the planes. If you really want to make a difference, go and get an MBA, climb the corporate ladder and do something about it!
Or, just whinge like a bunch of girls on PPRUNE. That could work too.
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'Or, just whinge like a bunch of girls on PPRUNE. That could work too.'
Unforunately it seems that it is always the same suspects who mount the 'lets bash Jetstar' bandwagon.
There is very little fact posted here about Jetstar and a lot of 'rumour with intent'. Perhaps for a change some of the usual suspects could try to back up their statements rather than launching another grenade.
I can tell you from the other side of the fence the constant 'anti' drivel that gets fired over our way IS having an effect. It is galvanising, and not in a way which supports pilot unity. Due to the constant ear / keyboard bashing they have received most Jetstar pilots do not bother to read Pprune anymore, let alone post.
As correctly posted above, Jetstar has provided a protective buffer for the Qantas group.. Without Jetstar QF would be bleeding on destinations like the Gold Coast and Tasmania. This before Tiger's entry.
Internationally Australian Airlines was not able to mount serious competition on routes like Bali and Phuket, let alone QF mainline. Once again Jetstar provides an alternative for the QF group which keeps the profits 'in house'.
I think you will find that despite the low fares, the Return on Gross Assets currently provided by Jetstar domestic is on a par with QF domestic. Qantas International is hopeless. Compare the value of the International fleet versus the returns generated ( I know this is not a popular thought amongst the -400 drivers).
Jetstar is here to stay (as permanent as that can be in aviation). It is time that some QF drivers woke up and supported their cousins taking crap from and for them.
Unforunately it seems that it is always the same suspects who mount the 'lets bash Jetstar' bandwagon.
There is very little fact posted here about Jetstar and a lot of 'rumour with intent'. Perhaps for a change some of the usual suspects could try to back up their statements rather than launching another grenade.
I can tell you from the other side of the fence the constant 'anti' drivel that gets fired over our way IS having an effect. It is galvanising, and not in a way which supports pilot unity. Due to the constant ear / keyboard bashing they have received most Jetstar pilots do not bother to read Pprune anymore, let alone post.
As correctly posted above, Jetstar has provided a protective buffer for the Qantas group.. Without Jetstar QF would be bleeding on destinations like the Gold Coast and Tasmania. This before Tiger's entry.
Internationally Australian Airlines was not able to mount serious competition on routes like Bali and Phuket, let alone QF mainline. Once again Jetstar provides an alternative for the QF group which keeps the profits 'in house'.
I think you will find that despite the low fares, the Return on Gross Assets currently provided by Jetstar domestic is on a par with QF domestic. Qantas International is hopeless. Compare the value of the International fleet versus the returns generated ( I know this is not a popular thought amongst the -400 drivers).
Jetstar is here to stay (as permanent as that can be in aviation). It is time that some QF drivers woke up and supported their cousins taking crap from and for them.
Last edited by VH-JJW; 9th Aug 2007 at 09:51.
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Fine. Hope Jetstar fails. That way Qantas will have to; a) compete head-to-head against Tiger and Virgin on ALL of its routes; b) cede a massive chunk of domestic and international marketshare and; c) aggressively and unilaterally lower mainline wages and conditions to achieve a & b.
Carnage would a word that would come to mind. Anyone care to watch another icon go the way of another full service carrier that once flew?
JQ pax are flying QF domestically. Code-share!
most QF drivers are comfortable with the principle behind J* as being a LCC but what we object to is the continued reference to how much money they make whilst mainline is 'expensive' when there are 'costs' that mainline wear that subsidise J*'s profitability.