New Virgin EBA
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New Virgin EBA
Found this on another forum;
Well, after 4 long months of waiting, the Feds have released the latest company offer in basic detail.
Lump sum of $8,000 paid on the introduction of new work rules ($7,500 promised in previous EBA).
737 Captain’s Salary to increase to $164,184 (including the professional retention bonus) plus 3% CPI on 1st July 07.
Embraer rate will be 80% of the 737 salary.
149 days off per year, up from 128 days, but six weeks leave has to fit in somewhere.
Annual target of 816 flying hours, and by my calculations that would be an average of 4.3 flying hours per day.
No reserve days on rosters, however those volunteering to work on a blank/day of to receive a payment of $1,000 for a minimum of 5 hours flight time.
A guarantee that 4/7th of all Captains positions on the B777 will be from current VB pilots for the first 7 aircraft.
VB have also changed the criteria for determining what level (1,2 or 3) new pilots join as FO's. In the past most pilots ie those with turboprop time (and no jet time) joined as level 2, and progressed to level 3 after 500 hours on the B737. Now any new joiners with turboprop time (without jet time above 50.0t) will be classified as level 1(ie lower pay).
I hear this EBA will follow the path of the last one and be voted down.
Well, after 4 long months of waiting, the Feds have released the latest company offer in basic detail.
Lump sum of $8,000 paid on the introduction of new work rules ($7,500 promised in previous EBA).
737 Captain’s Salary to increase to $164,184 (including the professional retention bonus) plus 3% CPI on 1st July 07.
Embraer rate will be 80% of the 737 salary.
149 days off per year, up from 128 days, but six weeks leave has to fit in somewhere.
Annual target of 816 flying hours, and by my calculations that would be an average of 4.3 flying hours per day.
No reserve days on rosters, however those volunteering to work on a blank/day of to receive a payment of $1,000 for a minimum of 5 hours flight time.
A guarantee that 4/7th of all Captains positions on the B777 will be from current VB pilots for the first 7 aircraft.
VB have also changed the criteria for determining what level (1,2 or 3) new pilots join as FO's. In the past most pilots ie those with turboprop time (and no jet time) joined as level 2, and progressed to level 3 after 500 hours on the B737. Now any new joiners with turboprop time (without jet time above 50.0t) will be classified as level 1(ie lower pay).
I hear this EBA will follow the path of the last one and be voted down.
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It actually works out to LESS money than the one voted down. (they still think pilots are idiots - maybe some are?)
They changed from an overtime based system, to an increase in base pay, which will work out to be less money considering the hours that will be flown in the near future. With pilots going to the EMB, and a rumoured 30 - 40 being interviewed by EK, anyone who thinks they will only be doing 816hrs/year are dreaming! Most are over 816 already.
87% NO last time, 90+% NO next time if its not changed.
They changed from an overtime based system, to an increase in base pay, which will work out to be less money considering the hours that will be flown in the near future. With pilots going to the EMB, and a rumoured 30 - 40 being interviewed by EK, anyone who thinks they will only be doing 816hrs/year are dreaming! Most are over 816 already.
87% NO last time, 90+% NO next time if its not changed.
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So let me get this straight,
Captains pay just short of $170,000 with the CPI.
6 weeks annual leave.
That leaves 149 days off spread across 46 weeks.
That results in over 14 days off per month.
No standby callouts.
$1000 just for volunteering to work on a day off.
Progression onto a 777 when it arrives.
My only question is, what sort of conditions are you expecting to get for operating an automated jet in the benign environment that is downunder?
Captains pay just short of $170,000 with the CPI.
6 weeks annual leave.
That leaves 149 days off spread across 46 weeks.
That results in over 14 days off per month.
No standby callouts.
$1000 just for volunteering to work on a day off.
Progression onto a 777 when it arrives.
My only question is, what sort of conditions are you expecting to get for operating an automated jet in the benign environment that is downunder?
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Well, though being out of my league and all i have to agree with the Professor. What are you really expecting? Hey lets pay the Captains 500k give them 26 weeks annual leave a year and watch the demise of another airline.
If the conditions are so crap put in your resignation. I hear Tiger are looking!!
If the conditions are so crap put in your resignation. I hear Tiger are looking!!
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I didnt say fantastic, but having flown in 5 airlines in Oz, Asia and Europe, I would suggest its not a bad deal, especially the 6 weeks leave and the 14 days off per month. No airline I have flown for would provide such a lifestyle. Combine this with the quality of life in oz and it is not really worth getting wound up over.
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Why do they still insist on paying the EMB pilots 80% less than the Boeing crews ?
In terms of profitability it would make just as much, it saves the company money on a thinner route, the crews fly the same amount of hours and those silly enough to pay for the rating aren't going to get it any cheaper than a 737 ticket.
Shags
In terms of profitability it would make just as much, it saves the company money on a thinner route, the crews fly the same amount of hours and those silly enough to pay for the rating aren't going to get it any cheaper than a 737 ticket.
Shags
Grandpa Aerotart
Perhaps the VB chaps/chapesses should now concentrate on lifestyle/rostering issues...that package combined with fewer consecutive nights away from home...say 2 instead of 4...might be hard to better. Short of going to India/China and touring...which sounds fun but is disaster for family life. As good as the pay is for doing that sort of work you risk falling foul of the ATO and all of a sudden you're netting less and still stuck in one of the worlds less cellubrious spots working your arse off...they aint paying the big $ out of the goodness of their hearts.
C03...be careful making comparisons with other countries and other packages...it is simply not valid to multiply x exchange rate and suggest Ryan air are on 250k.
C03...be careful making comparisons with other countries and other packages...it is simply not valid to multiply x exchange rate and suggest Ryan air are on 250k.
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The Professor,
Its not 149 days off after 6 weeks leave is taken out, nobody said that - its your interpretation. A bit like your interpretation of the good deal (not) the JPC negotiated for their pilot group - and managed to sell it to them as well.
Its 11 days off in 7 roster periods, and 12 off in 6 roster periods. (28 day rosters). There will be Reserve as the no reserve thing is only a "best endeveour" type of commitment. 10 to 12 overnights will still be happening, only there is effectively another month of them! (13 roster periods, instead of 12).
Its no wonder T & C's in Aus are the way they are judging by some of the above posts. There is a pilot group trying to improve pay and conditions for all, closer to where they should be, only to be mocked by fellow pilots with comments like;
"My only question is, what sort of conditions are you expecting to get for operating an automated jet in the benign environment that is downunder?" or;
"Well, though being out of my league and all i have to agree with the Professor. What are you really expecting? Hey lets pay the Captains 500k give them 26 weeks annual leave a year and watch the demise of another airline. If the conditions are so crap put in your resignation. I hear Tiger are looking!!"
Its a sad state of affairs when you have pilots with this mentality roaming around. The Professor and Co. wake up you morons!!
Its not 149 days off after 6 weeks leave is taken out, nobody said that - its your interpretation. A bit like your interpretation of the good deal (not) the JPC negotiated for their pilot group - and managed to sell it to them as well.
Its 11 days off in 7 roster periods, and 12 off in 6 roster periods. (28 day rosters). There will be Reserve as the no reserve thing is only a "best endeveour" type of commitment. 10 to 12 overnights will still be happening, only there is effectively another month of them! (13 roster periods, instead of 12).
Its no wonder T & C's in Aus are the way they are judging by some of the above posts. There is a pilot group trying to improve pay and conditions for all, closer to where they should be, only to be mocked by fellow pilots with comments like;
"My only question is, what sort of conditions are you expecting to get for operating an automated jet in the benign environment that is downunder?" or;
"Well, though being out of my league and all i have to agree with the Professor. What are you really expecting? Hey lets pay the Captains 500k give them 26 weeks annual leave a year and watch the demise of another airline. If the conditions are so crap put in your resignation. I hear Tiger are looking!!"
Its a sad state of affairs when you have pilots with this mentality roaming around. The Professor and Co. wake up you morons!!
Grandpa Aerotart
All I am saying is it is not valid to quote a Ryanair Captain as earning GBP100k and suggest that is AUD250k, as I have seen on this website numerous times before.
To suggest the Brits etc are not taxed to the point of exasperation seems to jibe with the general feeling against Gordon Brown, their chief taxman. Brits are permanently leaving the UK in vaste numbers because of being overtaxed and that tax being wasted...many are moving to Australia.
Starting next year, assuming LJH is returned to power, the tax rates in Australia will be such that you'll be averaging somewhere < 30% overall on everything less than AUD180k...and losing 45% of everything above.
Most of the complaints I hear from mates at VB revolve around time away from home. Raw money won't resolve that complaint...certainly not for very long.
Perhaps it is time to sit down and negotiate with the company about lifestyle and rostering...balancing off extra $, most of which will just go to the Govt, against rosters that have you away from home fewer nights in a row. Some late start/early finish trip pairs where you get an extra 1/2 day here and there as opposed to late finish/early start trip pairings.
If you just demand gross numbers you may succeed in the current employment climate...but then the company will extract their pound of flesh in rosters that will have you crying inside 6 mths.
Perhaps rather than going for gross pay you should start exploring rostering protocols that will afford you a decent lifestyle while still allowing those who want to work their coyts off the ability to do so via the $1000/day rate of some other suitable overtime system that everyone is happy with...mostly.
I dunno...Ryanair has some system where guys work 4 days and have 3 off and then 3 on 4 off or some such...would a 4 on, 4 off rostering system be a workable system in VB?
Perhaps with one of those off days, the first and/or last, available by mutual agreement as an 'available' day at that agreed rate of AUD1000.
You could do all sorts of things...take 4 leave days and have 12 consecutive days off...or if hungry/needing cash negotiate with rostering..."Yeah gidday rostering...look wanna buy the fiancee a nice ring so can you put me down as available on my first and last day off for the next two weeks?"
There will always be pilots hungry for $ so the company will know who to ring and leave those who don't want the overtime alone with their wives and kids or hobbies.
I think the numbers are looking close...smart employees might start to look at mutually beneficial rostering protocols that allow them to make lifestyle choices rather than holding the company over a barrel and then wondering why they are never home as a result.
FWIW
To suggest the Brits etc are not taxed to the point of exasperation seems to jibe with the general feeling against Gordon Brown, their chief taxman. Brits are permanently leaving the UK in vaste numbers because of being overtaxed and that tax being wasted...many are moving to Australia.
Starting next year, assuming LJH is returned to power, the tax rates in Australia will be such that you'll be averaging somewhere < 30% overall on everything less than AUD180k...and losing 45% of everything above.
Most of the complaints I hear from mates at VB revolve around time away from home. Raw money won't resolve that complaint...certainly not for very long.
Perhaps it is time to sit down and negotiate with the company about lifestyle and rostering...balancing off extra $, most of which will just go to the Govt, against rosters that have you away from home fewer nights in a row. Some late start/early finish trip pairs where you get an extra 1/2 day here and there as opposed to late finish/early start trip pairings.
If you just demand gross numbers you may succeed in the current employment climate...but then the company will extract their pound of flesh in rosters that will have you crying inside 6 mths.
Perhaps rather than going for gross pay you should start exploring rostering protocols that will afford you a decent lifestyle while still allowing those who want to work their coyts off the ability to do so via the $1000/day rate of some other suitable overtime system that everyone is happy with...mostly.
I dunno...Ryanair has some system where guys work 4 days and have 3 off and then 3 on 4 off or some such...would a 4 on, 4 off rostering system be a workable system in VB?
Perhaps with one of those off days, the first and/or last, available by mutual agreement as an 'available' day at that agreed rate of AUD1000.
You could do all sorts of things...take 4 leave days and have 12 consecutive days off...or if hungry/needing cash negotiate with rostering..."Yeah gidday rostering...look wanna buy the fiancee a nice ring so can you put me down as available on my first and last day off for the next two weeks?"
There will always be pilots hungry for $ so the company will know who to ring and leave those who don't want the overtime alone with their wives and kids or hobbies.
I think the numbers are looking close...smart employees might start to look at mutually beneficial rostering protocols that allow them to make lifestyle choices rather than holding the company over a barrel and then wondering why they are never home as a result.
FWIW
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although Australia doesn't have terrain challenges, it can produce some of the most challenging weather conditions in the world.
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VB have also changed the criteria for determining what level (1,2 or 3) new pilots join as FO's. In the past most pilots ie those with turboprop time (and no jet time) joined as level 2, and progressed to level 3 after 500 hours on the B737. Now any new joiners with turboprop time (without jet time above 50.0t) will be classified as level 1(ie lower pay)
Do they suddenly perform to a lower standard?
Is turbo-prop time suddenly worth less or not rate higher than piston only?
I spent 15+ years and quite a few thousand hours flying all over Australia before leaving for my current employer. My last thousand + hours have been attained flying to many different points on the globe. Does Aus have challenging weather - Yes it can, although rarely did I find it an issue in the 73, or even a DHC6, although it was more of an issue in a C310/C206! I have seen MUCH more challenging weather in the last 18 months from my current type than I saw in my ENTIRE career in Aus. The MAIN challenges VB pilots face are incredibly low morale (Basic Flight Safety 101) due to the utter disdain that their management treats them with (a respect issue that has permeated the whole company), no career management or professional development (unless you come from a VERY specific previous employment/relative stream), and rostering practises that can only be described as punitive. One would believe the Rostering Departments main KPI is duty hours rather than effective stick time. To consistently offer packages that , in REAL terms do not outperform average CPI, whilst taking literally tens of millions in bonuses/share options (that are traded OUTSIDE of the trading window available to employees) demonstrates the managements view of their average pilots intellect. Please guys and girls, stand firm on this or vote with your feet, like an increasing number of us have done. It is FINALLY a pilots market, so make hay whilst the sun shines. 
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t m
You are an absolute , " richard cranium " with your comments re, OZ WX.
Having flown, every where around OZ,as a Captain,on, 3's, F 27's, F/O on DC-9's , L188's, Capt. on 737-200/300 glass, 727-200/200LR, and Capt. overseas for Malaysian for many years, on 200, 400, it is obvious to me that you have never had to flight plan SYD/PER on domestic ( !!! ) aircraft.
A DC 9, do not even try think about it, with the jet streams, in OZ.
In a B 727-200 LR , I had to flight plan, Syd- Adl- Per to get there.
In OZ, we have weather you really don't want to know about at times, ever heard of a, " Southerly Buster, in an OZ city, you know it all, how about, the huge sink out, landing to the south at BNE at certain times of the year, then there's ADL, CBR, ASP, DRW and many more. Think about OZ, How big it is, how few Airports. Also think about the North of Queensland in the WET, in a DC-9, 24200 lbs of fuel, this equals, 242 minutes, TOTAL endurance. Where to go, if the SH one T, hits the fan.
At MAS, when I was with them, a great time, and many friends at SIA, everywhere one went, there are heaps of airports to divert to, provided you have planned, correctly, and at around 10 tonnes per hour, one can carry a suitable, Alternate, anywhere.
As a long time friend of mine always quotes, when asked by the F/O, why have you ordered, SO, much fuel, he, says, "Put down, CVE."
t m, work that one out for yourself, you DH,
Fuel Tanks, ARE FUEL TANKS, NOT, air tanks,
To all others,
Cheers,
And, don't ever forget, that the only time you, as Captain, can have tooooo, much fuel on, is if you happen, to have a fire.
Had one of those, also a 2 engine failure, ( On a 4 eng. A/c ) a Loss of cabin pressure out of Singa's, and the ensuing Emerg. Descent, not counting many other PROB's
With Chardy in hand,
Apinun Olgeta
robroy
Having flown, every where around OZ,as a Captain,on, 3's, F 27's, F/O on DC-9's , L188's, Capt. on 737-200/300 glass, 727-200/200LR, and Capt. overseas for Malaysian for many years, on 200, 400, it is obvious to me that you have never had to flight plan SYD/PER on domestic ( !!! ) aircraft.
A DC 9, do not even try think about it, with the jet streams, in OZ.
In a B 727-200 LR , I had to flight plan, Syd- Adl- Per to get there.
In OZ, we have weather you really don't want to know about at times, ever heard of a, " Southerly Buster, in an OZ city, you know it all, how about, the huge sink out, landing to the south at BNE at certain times of the year, then there's ADL, CBR, ASP, DRW and many more. Think about OZ, How big it is, how few Airports. Also think about the North of Queensland in the WET, in a DC-9, 24200 lbs of fuel, this equals, 242 minutes, TOTAL endurance. Where to go, if the SH one T, hits the fan.
At MAS, when I was with them, a great time, and many friends at SIA, everywhere one went, there are heaps of airports to divert to, provided you have planned, correctly, and at around 10 tonnes per hour, one can carry a suitable, Alternate, anywhere.
As a long time friend of mine always quotes, when asked by the F/O, why have you ordered, SO, much fuel, he, says, "Put down, CVE."
t m, work that one out for yourself, you DH,
Fuel Tanks, ARE FUEL TANKS, NOT, air tanks,
To all others,
Cheers,
And, don't ever forget, that the only time you, as Captain, can have tooooo, much fuel on, is if you happen, to have a fire.
Had one of those, also a 2 engine failure, ( On a 4 eng. A/c ) a Loss of cabin pressure out of Singa's, and the ensuing Emerg. Descent, not counting many other PROB's
With Chardy in hand,
Apinun Olgeta
robroy
Last edited by robroy; 12th May 2007 at 16:11.
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Contrails, Ryan and Easy are in a vastly different labor market than Virgin Blue and Jetstar. The salary comparison is not valid. There are certain advantages to working for these airlines such as Easy’s rostering but I would suggest that you have rose colored glasses when it comes to assessing the lifestyle an Easy salary buys you. UK is not an easy place to live.
The contract at Southwest can trace its origins back to when the airline first proposed a compensation scheme for aircrew almost 40 years ago. The US industry has changed since WN arrived on the scene and shorthaul contracts written in recent years offer considerably less. Take a look at Virgin America.
Once again, Dragonair pilots are in a totally different market to carriers employing crew in oz and will always pay a premium to attract crew to live in HKG. Most, if not all employers in many industries in Asia pay large premiums to attract professional talent from countries such as oz.
Your comment thus “Sydney and Melbourne are a lot more expensive to live in than most Easy Jet and Ryan air bases. If you don't believe me do some research”.
Maybe in some cases, but not in most. Have you ever been to Luton?
The only valid salary comparison is within your industry within your market. NJS, Jetstar, Qantas, Skywest, Aus Air Express, Alliance, Air New Zealand, Zeal320 etc
Cap Brush, thanks for clarifying the number of days off on offer and also. 11 and 12 in 28 is about 10 and 11 per month. I would love to get 11 RDO’s per month. My contract entitles me to 8 or 9 like almost all other airline contracts I have signed.
And what exactly would you like me to wake up to. The market has changed in oz, just take a look at the salary levels being offered to fly jets now. NO NEW COMPANY HAS OR WILL EVER PAY YOU QF/AN PAY. THEY DON’T NEED TO.
You should wake up.
Robroy, a lot of issues you raise are to do with using an aircraft to fly a sector its barely capable of doing. In general the weather and especially the atc in oz are far better than India / Africa and especially north Asia. Japan has the strongest crosswinds and windshear I have ever seen and sometimes can leave you with little choice of airports.
The contract at Southwest can trace its origins back to when the airline first proposed a compensation scheme for aircrew almost 40 years ago. The US industry has changed since WN arrived on the scene and shorthaul contracts written in recent years offer considerably less. Take a look at Virgin America.
Once again, Dragonair pilots are in a totally different market to carriers employing crew in oz and will always pay a premium to attract crew to live in HKG. Most, if not all employers in many industries in Asia pay large premiums to attract professional talent from countries such as oz.
Your comment thus “Sydney and Melbourne are a lot more expensive to live in than most Easy Jet and Ryan air bases. If you don't believe me do some research”.
Maybe in some cases, but not in most. Have you ever been to Luton?
The only valid salary comparison is within your industry within your market. NJS, Jetstar, Qantas, Skywest, Aus Air Express, Alliance, Air New Zealand, Zeal320 etc
Cap Brush, thanks for clarifying the number of days off on offer and also. 11 and 12 in 28 is about 10 and 11 per month. I would love to get 11 RDO’s per month. My contract entitles me to 8 or 9 like almost all other airline contracts I have signed.
And what exactly would you like me to wake up to. The market has changed in oz, just take a look at the salary levels being offered to fly jets now. NO NEW COMPANY HAS OR WILL EVER PAY YOU QF/AN PAY. THEY DON’T NEED TO.
You should wake up.
Robroy, a lot of issues you raise are to do with using an aircraft to fly a sector its barely capable of doing. In general the weather and especially the atc in oz are far better than India / Africa and especially north Asia. Japan has the strongest crosswinds and windshear I have ever seen and sometimes can leave you with little choice of airports.
