New Virgin EBA
Dear professor, I cant seem to grasp why you are so intent on telling all Virgin Blue pilots why they have so good and why they should except the current EBA offer, isn’t it up to them.
So since you are so keen to fly the lower wages and conditions banner,I have to ask, do you work for Virgin management or are you a JPC representative as suggested on this forum.
I just don’t understand why any pilot in the world would advocate to another group of pilots to except less unless he as a sinister motive.
If on the other hand you don’t have another motive then keep your childish rants to yourself and leave it to the virgin crews who are affected by this EBA NOT YOU.
So since you are so keen to fly the lower wages and conditions banner,I have to ask, do you work for Virgin management or are you a JPC representative as suggested on this forum.
I just don’t understand why any pilot in the world would advocate to another group of pilots to except less unless he as a sinister motive.
If on the other hand you don’t have another motive then keep your childish rants to yourself and leave it to the virgin crews who are affected by this EBA NOT YOU.
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Im surprised aircraft hasn't offered his amazing input on this thread yet.
When you think about it, it makes sense. Aircraft was always defending GD and Management, Workchoices, LJH etc, and the real giveaway is that aircraft didn't know that Jetstar Asia even existed, that proves aircraft is someone from the Qantas board.
Maybe the professor is actually BG!
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psycho joe,
It's all about money!
It’s surprising that people still want to join VB under the current conditions. And if the new conditions, which would allow a pilot to work 7 days and split duties get through (perhaps via AWA’s for new joiners), it will not be a good place to work.
Every jet company in Australia and NZ are recruiting at the moment, and companies, such as ANZ, Skywest, Alliance, Ozjet and Skyairworld will not make you pay for an endorsement. All these companies would offer a better lifestyle then what VB can offer.
Skywest offers a base in Perth with most nights at home and $110000+ per year as an F100 captain and only doing 700 hours per year. Ozjet offers Brisbane and Perth bases with captains earning $130000+ per year and once again most nights at home and similar hours to Skywest pilots per year. Alliance offers Townsville, Brisbane, Perth and Adelaide with captains earning $110000 per year and once again most nights at home and once again only doing 700 hours per year. So although these companies don’t pay the same as VB, they offer you lifestyle, which to most, is more important then money.
Most pilots at VB are doing 850+ hours per year and spending 12 -14 nights away per month. Most are doing 6 days in a row with one day off and then away for another 4-5 days. Does that sound like a good lifestyle?
It's all about money!
It’s surprising that people still want to join VB under the current conditions. And if the new conditions, which would allow a pilot to work 7 days and split duties get through (perhaps via AWA’s for new joiners), it will not be a good place to work.
Every jet company in Australia and NZ are recruiting at the moment, and companies, such as ANZ, Skywest, Alliance, Ozjet and Skyairworld will not make you pay for an endorsement. All these companies would offer a better lifestyle then what VB can offer.
Skywest offers a base in Perth with most nights at home and $110000+ per year as an F100 captain and only doing 700 hours per year. Ozjet offers Brisbane and Perth bases with captains earning $130000+ per year and once again most nights at home and similar hours to Skywest pilots per year. Alliance offers Townsville, Brisbane, Perth and Adelaide with captains earning $110000 per year and once again most nights at home and once again only doing 700 hours per year. So although these companies don’t pay the same as VB, they offer you lifestyle, which to most, is more important then money.
Most pilots at VB are doing 850+ hours per year and spending 12 -14 nights away per month. Most are doing 6 days in a row with one day off and then away for another 4-5 days. Does that sound like a good lifestyle?
PAF. A bit rich you a military pilot talking about fuel efficiencies and global warming! You really have no idea. Having seen both sides, I can tell you, there is much more consideration given to fuel savings and aircraft operating efficiencies at the airlines than in the RAAF.
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"Most pilots at VB are doing 850+ hours per year and spending 12 -14 nights away per month. Most are doing 6 days in a row with one day off and then away for another 4-5 days. Does that sound like a good lifestyle?"
That's hyperbole and exaggeration, Bent. Some are certainly doing more than 850 p.a. but I seriously doubt most. From a brief straw poll in the crew room, I have heard a 150 hours variance. Same seat, type, base. There's no reason for one colleague to work an effective 2 months more than another, esp without an overtime system rewarding him. Single days off are rare and usually illegal by the EBA 2002.
I would, though, suggest 850 VB hours can be more fatiguing than 850 hours with efficient rosters, limited overnights and less exposure to VB's policy of airport appreciation.
That's hyperbole and exaggeration, Bent. Some are certainly doing more than 850 p.a. but I seriously doubt most. From a brief straw poll in the crew room, I have heard a 150 hours variance. Same seat, type, base. There's no reason for one colleague to work an effective 2 months more than another, esp without an overtime system rewarding him. Single days off are rare and usually illegal by the EBA 2002.
I would, though, suggest 850 VB hours can be more fatiguing than 850 hours with efficient rosters, limited overnights and less exposure to VB's policy of airport appreciation.
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Originally Posted by bentandtwisted
Most are doing 6 days in a row with one day off and then away for another 4-5 days
Pilots - no
I have not heard of any pilots getting rostered single days off... infact my understanding of the Pilot EBA is that days off are to be rostered in no less than 2 at a time (excluding abnormal circumstances)
Cabin Crew need this changed though - 6 on, 1 off, 6 on can be torture! And no, the proposed new work rules did NOT rule out the chance of that being rostered.
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Pondoklabu. I have not told virgin pilots that they “have it so good”, I am not telling them that they should “except”???? the offer. I do think that many posters here are using dubious data to make the inevitable but pointless comparison to operators in different markets with contracts driven by outdated market forces. That is all. Like everyone, I have chums in Virgin, Jetstar and Eastern and many of them are totally clueless about what lifestyle a certain salary buys you in a certain part of the world but they still bang their fist on the table and complain about how tough they have it. UK is not an easy place to live; Ryan and Easy have seen a lot of turnover as a result so looking to them for salvation may not be the answer. HKG is not an easy place to live, I have chums in KA that spit blood with hatred for the company and are constantly going sick to avoid work.
No, I am not keen to lower wages and conditions (wow, as if I have such a power) but in my many years in this game I have seen many employee groups chose a combative relationship with their employer armed with very inaccurate information about the market in which they work. I do not work for Virgin management and I am not part of the JPC. Would it make it easier for you if I were? Would it be relevant?
My motive on pprune is probably the same as yours, to simply chew the fat. I am not intruding into other peoples affairs and a point of view not connected to yours does not constitute a childish rant.
Contrails, what is “the going rate” and what data have you used to calculate it?
No, I am not keen to lower wages and conditions (wow, as if I have such a power) but in my many years in this game I have seen many employee groups chose a combative relationship with their employer armed with very inaccurate information about the market in which they work. I do not work for Virgin management and I am not part of the JPC. Would it make it easier for you if I were? Would it be relevant?
My motive on pprune is probably the same as yours, to simply chew the fat. I am not intruding into other peoples affairs and a point of view not connected to yours does not constitute a childish rant.
Contrails, what is “the going rate” and what data have you used to calculate it?
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A very entertaining topic from both sides. To set the record straight the pilot av. at VB is around 780/yr. Some I personally know are up to the 900/yr limit. Most rosters I see have 4 on, 2-3 off recurring. A lot though have 5 on 2 off. The 4 on are a continuous trip away from base. An average of 12-13 overnights a month is pretty much on the money. 3 days off follow red eye flights or a 4-5 sector day ending very late. Commonly it does take the first day off just to recover from the end of the trip. Most days have 3-4 sectors with a 8-10 hr duty & 3 aircraft changes with 30 minute turnarounds. Morale is an issue with how pilots are treated on other levels. Many friends I have in other airlines operating jet aircraft have knocked back opportunities in VB for a number of reasons.
Most pilots (in my opinion & experience) find it very difficult to maintain a decent family life with some of the inefficient rostering techniques. Lifestyle is preferred but financial compensation otherwise is an alternative.
In this topic there is a bit of false information from both sides & much more personal opinion than fact. The shear volume of pilots looking abroad says something, & with so many of their former colleagues working abroad they are more aware of what they personally want from their employer.
By the way I'm definitely no fan of the smilies.
Most pilots (in my opinion & experience) find it very difficult to maintain a decent family life with some of the inefficient rostering techniques. Lifestyle is preferred but financial compensation otherwise is an alternative.
In this topic there is a bit of false information from both sides & much more personal opinion than fact. The shear volume of pilots looking abroad says something, & with so many of their former colleagues working abroad they are more aware of what they personally want from their employer.
By the way I'm definitely no fan of the smilies.
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Contrails mate, as an employee of one of the above mentioned airlines, I would suggest that you come and live in a polluted foreign city 4000 miles away and fly 22 days per month with up to 14 overnights in third world polluted cities in crap weather, totally dangerous ATC procedures with 300 hour cadet effohs before you start comparing jobs mate. I have done your job before - have you done mine. I doubt it.
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I'm not sure why Dragonair is being compared to Virgin Blue/Easyjet/Ryanair?
KA is a full service airline and part of Cathay Pacific/Swire, it has a very different operating philosophy.
I hope the VB pilot group maintain their resolve and attain remuneration that rewards their professionalism, experience and responsibility. It will hopefully be good for all pilots in Australia if they succeed.
KA is a full service airline and part of Cathay Pacific/Swire, it has a very different operating philosophy.
I hope the VB pilot group maintain their resolve and attain remuneration that rewards their professionalism, experience and responsibility. It will hopefully be good for all pilots in Australia if they succeed.
Oh for gods sake, why all this 'who's better than whom' and flying to Dalian is worse than Darwin crap? Pilots are their own worst enemies.
There is only one rule governing all of this: Supply and Demand.
Pilots have been screwed (and allowed themselves to be) for years due too much supply and insufficient demand.
Now the situation has reversed. Much demand, insufficient supply. Take advantage of it NOW.
Get the AIPA, AFAP and even JPC under one roof and GO for it. Now is the time to claw back all that's been lost over the last 10 years (and stop trying to put down our colleagues - that helps nobody).
There is only one rule governing all of this: Supply and Demand.
Pilots have been screwed (and allowed themselves to be) for years due too much supply and insufficient demand.
Now the situation has reversed. Much demand, insufficient supply. Take advantage of it NOW.
Get the AIPA, AFAP and even JPC under one roof and GO for it. Now is the time to claw back all that's been lost over the last 10 years (and stop trying to put down our colleagues - that helps nobody).
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SO WHAT DO YOU WANT.
This thread had the opportunity to be informative, but as per usual it has turned to drivel. So what is your dream list?
Mine would be better provisions for meals. 45 min turn arounds is insufficient for a meal breaks especially with an aircraft swap. I don't like dinner being provided at 4pm. Sure pay could be better, but it's the small things that make a difference.
AirNZ domestic guys and gals have 10 RDOs/month minimum, and up to around 14 including unassigned days from time to time. We usually have 2 overnights a month, and incentive pay over 55hr/month.
For an FO with 1yr service and an ATPL goes on to 4yr pay = NZ$78,747.
Every 18 months or so you have a roster of standby (28days) either early or late sessions.
Instead of being negative lets be positive. So once again what do you want?
Be realistic about it. If you get your ideas out there others may agree and then you can take these requests to the table next time you negotiate.
This thread had the opportunity to be informative, but as per usual it has turned to drivel. So what is your dream list?
Mine would be better provisions for meals. 45 min turn arounds is insufficient for a meal breaks especially with an aircraft swap. I don't like dinner being provided at 4pm. Sure pay could be better, but it's the small things that make a difference.
AirNZ domestic guys and gals have 10 RDOs/month minimum, and up to around 14 including unassigned days from time to time. We usually have 2 overnights a month, and incentive pay over 55hr/month.
For an FO with 1yr service and an ATPL goes on to 4yr pay = NZ$78,747.
Every 18 months or so you have a roster of standby (28days) either early or late sessions.
Instead of being negative lets be positive. So once again what do you want?
Be realistic about it. If you get your ideas out there others may agree and then you can take these requests to the table next time you negotiate.
What do we want?
Better meal provisions
- no that's not so high on my list of priorities.
What I would envisage is full recognition of my chosen Union.
That cohesive union - representing all GA, Regional and Airline pilots Australia-wide would then push for huge pay increases and improvements to working conditions (rostering agreements with specific clauses regarding days-off, maximum hours workable [not CASA limits], deviations from archaic provisions of AWA's written directly into contracts and thus enforceable by law [particularly benificial during industry downturns]).
Employers have naturally taken advantage of the supply/demand equation being in their favour for the last 10 years and it has hurt us, and we have bickered amongst ourselves and fought like beggars over the crumbs they kindly throw our way.
Now the supply/demand equation has turned and we can play the same game, their game, this time with a chance of winning!
Should the employer not wish to agree to the conditions set by the representative Union, members can and will depart for overseas postings offering the same or better conditions with more favourable tax regimes.
If you have no pilots you have no business and no shareholder returns. You will soon accept that the Union conditions need to be accepted in order to have any business at all, they are simply a cost of running that business.
If we were united NOW, we could have this NOW. The only thing stopping this is US. At present we are simply a ragtag bunch of self-serving individuals undermining each other, PPRune being the outlet for that divisiveness.
But we need to think BIG (not about meals, but big-ticket items).
We must first regroup as a cohesive and determined league of professionals. The only way I can see this happening is by combining AIPA, AFAP and JPC, letting bygones be bygones and merging our collective intellect in order to come up with an innovative 21st century way to play the IR game. But it can only be done as a whole. Sniping at others on PPRune wont help this task.
Think big and the little items (like meal-breaks) will sort themselves out.
Better meal provisions
- no that's not so high on my list of priorities.What I would envisage is full recognition of my chosen Union.
That cohesive union - representing all GA, Regional and Airline pilots Australia-wide would then push for huge pay increases and improvements to working conditions (rostering agreements with specific clauses regarding days-off, maximum hours workable [not CASA limits], deviations from archaic provisions of AWA's written directly into contracts and thus enforceable by law [particularly benificial during industry downturns]).
Employers have naturally taken advantage of the supply/demand equation being in their favour for the last 10 years and it has hurt us, and we have bickered amongst ourselves and fought like beggars over the crumbs they kindly throw our way.
Now the supply/demand equation has turned and we can play the same game, their game, this time with a chance of winning!
Should the employer not wish to agree to the conditions set by the representative Union, members can and will depart for overseas postings offering the same or better conditions with more favourable tax regimes.
If you have no pilots you have no business and no shareholder returns. You will soon accept that the Union conditions need to be accepted in order to have any business at all, they are simply a cost of running that business.
If we were united NOW, we could have this NOW. The only thing stopping this is US. At present we are simply a ragtag bunch of self-serving individuals undermining each other, PPRune being the outlet for that divisiveness.
But we need to think BIG (not about meals, but big-ticket items).
We must first regroup as a cohesive and determined league of professionals. The only way I can see this happening is by combining AIPA, AFAP and JPC, letting bygones be bygones and merging our collective intellect in order to come up with an innovative 21st century way to play the IR game. But it can only be done as a whole. Sniping at others on PPRune wont help this task.
Think big and the little items (like meal-breaks) will sort themselves out.
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Contrails, paying pilots to stop leaving! You mean paying ransom money. VB could easily stop the exodus without throwing good money after bad. Aircrew retention rates are not tied exclusively to salary. You mentioned an example of one such airline yourself. If you personally make career decisions based purely on salary, then its time to leave VB as it clearly does not meet your criteria. Do you really expect VB to design a compensation package to suit only you?
“Professor, if you're happy with lower pay and conditions”. A comment as absurd as “you are either with us or with the terrorists”.
Firstly, let it be clear, I love money. I love it. The more the better. BUT, I also understand that my desire for enough money to own my own Gulfstream can coexist with an acceptance that compromise is required at some point along the income scale and that as an airline pilot I am unlikely to be shopping the flight line in Savannah. It is possible for a highly evolved person to see both sides of the argument. Obviously you cannot.
Secondly, If it does turn around (from what to what I am unsure), by your own admission, it will be because “market forces dictate”. Such forces are wonderful, they giveth and they taketh away but “fighting” (exactly how are you fighting?) will do very little to help your cause. Let the market do the work for you but it will be interesting to see if your argument is intact after the global economy inevitably tanks and the usual downsizing occurs. Seen it many times now.
Thirdly, what exactly are “lower rates”? Lower than Qantas pilots? Lower than Jetstar Pilots? Lower than NJS pilots? Lower than a school principle? Lower than last year?
Your arguments are simplistic and very emotional. You resort to the common assumption that mutual exclusivity is not possible when analyzing a set of circumstances, probably because you are unable to achieve such a thought process yourself.
“Professor, if you're happy with lower pay and conditions”. A comment as absurd as “you are either with us or with the terrorists”.
Firstly, let it be clear, I love money. I love it. The more the better. BUT, I also understand that my desire for enough money to own my own Gulfstream can coexist with an acceptance that compromise is required at some point along the income scale and that as an airline pilot I am unlikely to be shopping the flight line in Savannah. It is possible for a highly evolved person to see both sides of the argument. Obviously you cannot.
Secondly, If it does turn around (from what to what I am unsure), by your own admission, it will be because “market forces dictate”. Such forces are wonderful, they giveth and they taketh away but “fighting” (exactly how are you fighting?) will do very little to help your cause. Let the market do the work for you but it will be interesting to see if your argument is intact after the global economy inevitably tanks and the usual downsizing occurs. Seen it many times now.
Thirdly, what exactly are “lower rates”? Lower than Qantas pilots? Lower than Jetstar Pilots? Lower than NJS pilots? Lower than a school principle? Lower than last year?
Your arguments are simplistic and very emotional. You resort to the common assumption that mutual exclusivity is not possible when analyzing a set of circumstances, probably because you are unable to achieve such a thought process yourself.
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So whens the vote on the EBA? What is the expected time frame to get the total package sorted out?
Wouldn't mind a gig on the Embraear, but not at the rates quoted so far here...
Wouldn't mind a gig on the Embraear, but not at the rates quoted so far here...
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I suspect less overnights given the more regional destinations, probably a better lifestyle and possibly a quicker upgrade. At my stage in life, a better proposition.
Horses for courses, you young blokes can have the BIG jets and the long haul!
PS: I also think they are a sexy ship!
Horses for courses, you young blokes can have the BIG jets and the long haul!
PS: I also think they are a sexy ship!