No AOC for Skyairworld, delay for Solomon Airlines
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It could have something to do with the fact that in the old days when Nauru was extremely wealthy, they treated their poorer Pacific cousins with utter contempt.
For sure the Ozjet relationship will go the same way as all who have dealt with Solomons before. Not paying is just a Pacific thing. Ozjet will learn the hard way.
Agree with Sale and Moonlight etc that the sensible solution is for these poor Pacific islands to put their differences aside and run a joint venture airline. Maybe Canberra needs to make aid available for such an airline, but with strict conditions attached, like no gravy train salaries, an impartial board of directors and an equitable sharing of jobs, schedules, revenue etc.
But trusting the Nauruans ? Yeah, right, they have reformed, they all got religion last week and they really really want to help their brothers out. Sorry Moonlight and Sale, I know you probably work there, but who in their right mind would trust the Nauruans to share and be fair, with their history?
For sure the Ozjet relationship will go the same way as all who have dealt with Solomons before. Not paying is just a Pacific thing. Ozjet will learn the hard way.
Agree with Sale and Moonlight etc that the sensible solution is for these poor Pacific islands to put their differences aside and run a joint venture airline. Maybe Canberra needs to make aid available for such an airline, but with strict conditions attached, like no gravy train salaries, an impartial board of directors and an equitable sharing of jobs, schedules, revenue etc.
But trusting the Nauruans ? Yeah, right, they have reformed, they all got religion last week and they really really want to help their brothers out. Sorry Moonlight and Sale, I know you probably work there, but who in their right mind would trust the Nauruans to share and be fair, with their history?
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Sorry to disappoint you but I'm in the sandpit. Which reminds me, the Nauruans used to be called the Arabs of the Pacific. You have some valid points there on that one. They did lord it over their neighbours for a couple of decades. But even their neighbours can see that they (Nauru) are a shadow of their former selves. In fact, they are 'below average' as far as standard of living goes.
The Solomons should realise that a few leaders of the past, most of whom a 6 feet under and who had ruined Nauru and it's reputation and who had left no inheritance behind for it's people, are no longer there. Instead, a desperate ragtag of a government is trying it's darnest to patch up whatever damage that has been done and should therefore understand.
The Solomons should realise that a few leaders of the past, most of whom a 6 feet under and who had ruined Nauru and it's reputation and who had left no inheritance behind for it's people, are no longer there. Instead, a desperate ragtag of a government is trying it's darnest to patch up whatever damage that has been done and should therefore understand.
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Some simple comparisons:-
-200 vs -300.
-200 published schedule Brisbane to Honiara v.v: 3 hours 40 minutes.
-300 published schedule Brisbane to Honiara v.v: 3 hours.
assuming ground times the same for both, an extra 40 minutes flying time in a -200.
-200 fuel burn Brisbane to Honiara v.v: 8.5 - 9.5 tonnes (conservative??)
-300 fuel burn Brisbane to Honiara v.v: 7.5 - 8.5 tonnes
at some 70/litre ex Brisbane = around $900 extra in fuel costs for a -200.
-200 payload Brisbane to Honiara: 9 tonnes.
-300 payload Brisbane to Honiara: 12 tonnes.
equates to 30 more passengers and their bags in a -300.
Now, thirty extra passengers and bags or 3 tonnes freight (or combination thereof) for at least $900 less in fuel costs per trip would seem to indicate the -300 is a better choice.
What on earth possessed Solomon Airlines to pick such an aircraft for their services? Sure, an improvement over the E-170, but not as good (or as economically sound) as the alternative available (and I'm assuming, offered).
-200 vs -300.
-200 published schedule Brisbane to Honiara v.v: 3 hours 40 minutes.
-300 published schedule Brisbane to Honiara v.v: 3 hours.
assuming ground times the same for both, an extra 40 minutes flying time in a -200.
-200 fuel burn Brisbane to Honiara v.v: 8.5 - 9.5 tonnes (conservative??)
-300 fuel burn Brisbane to Honiara v.v: 7.5 - 8.5 tonnes
at some 70/litre ex Brisbane = around $900 extra in fuel costs for a -200.
-200 payload Brisbane to Honiara: 9 tonnes.
-300 payload Brisbane to Honiara: 12 tonnes.
equates to 30 more passengers and their bags in a -300.
Now, thirty extra passengers and bags or 3 tonnes freight (or combination thereof) for at least $900 less in fuel costs per trip would seem to indicate the -300 is a better choice.
What on earth possessed Solomon Airlines to pick such an aircraft for their services? Sure, an improvement over the E-170, but not as good (or as economically sound) as the alternative available (and I'm assuming, offered).
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It seems the Solair advisers are a few cans short of a six pack!!
Its pretty obvious what the best solution is, so why continue to throw money out the window? but then again look who the Attorney General is!……………… some how I doubt Canberra coming in to help!
Its pretty obvious what the best solution is, so why continue to throw money out the window? but then again look who the Attorney General is!……………… some how I doubt Canberra coming in to help!
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If the 300 really does knock 40 minutes off the sector it may be going direct on an ETOPS route. The 200 is just as quick as the 300 and cruises at the same mach numbers.
Does CASA realise that the ON airplane is ETOPS? Or maybe OJ is doing a refuel somewhere to get the payload but not telling the punters that on the schedule?
No argument the 300 is the better airplane, but see my previous post. If it was owned by most anyone else but Nauru it would probably be used. And we don't know what the OJ deal is - maybe they are taking all the commercial risk?
Does CASA realise that the ON airplane is ETOPS? Or maybe OJ is doing a refuel somewhere to get the payload but not telling the punters that on the schedule?
No argument the 300 is the better airplane, but see my previous post. If it was owned by most anyone else but Nauru it would probably be used. And we don't know what the OJ deal is - maybe they are taking all the commercial risk?
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Looking at Ivan's figures, then a -300 could shift the same payload on three trips versus the -200's four trips. Further very significant savings but at the expense of frequency which could be a problem. Would've thought a Monday/Wednesday/Friday service with the -300 would be the go.
I seriously don't think Ozjet would be silly enough to take the entire commercial risk!!! According to their AOC, they do not have approval to operate RPT services to Honiara so can only operate charters. That, by its very nature, would indicate someone else is paying them (and continue to do so, hopefully, after the SAW episode) and that other party is taking the commercial risk.
As for Our Airline being "owned by most anyone else", my understanding from the hoo-hah when the airline was launched is that other island nations have been invited to take a stake in the airline - hence the name. This would dilute the Nauruan ownership and give whomever invests some direct control as against being at the mercy of a charter operation.
I seriously don't think Ozjet would be silly enough to take the entire commercial risk!!! According to their AOC, they do not have approval to operate RPT services to Honiara so can only operate charters. That, by its very nature, would indicate someone else is paying them (and continue to do so, hopefully, after the SAW episode) and that other party is taking the commercial risk.
As for Our Airline being "owned by most anyone else", my understanding from the hoo-hah when the airline was launched is that other island nations have been invited to take a stake in the airline - hence the name. This would dilute the Nauruan ownership and give whomever invests some direct control as against being at the mercy of a charter operation.
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Yes the oz jet plane takes longer because it does not have etops approval thus having to take a route that stays closer to land. This has always been a problem for any opperator to honiara. Also oz jet has had big problems with flight planning of late with flights doing crazy route because bills have not been payed.
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From what I hear those flight planning changes have more to do with fine tuning of the non-etops route rather than the efforts of some out of control fllight planning company (which happens to be a pretty reputable one at that).
Last edited by sayallafter; 9th Sep 2007 at 07:01. Reason: sp
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and, until they do some serious culling and also look to worthwhile and realistic arrangements re their international operations, things will never get any better.
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You have got to wonder if they will ever learn. Maybe it's time for the public to teach them a lesson by not using their flights and instead using the other carriers e.g. Our Airline ,ANG,Air Pacific etc. But in the end I guess it's their money and they can throw it away any way they want to.
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non etops out of brisbane only adds about 15-20 minutes to the route.
oz jet is being used because they are the only ones they can get.
another airline is starting the route very shortly, and its my guess that they will blitz the field. they will not be involved with solomon airlines. they will be direct competition.
surprise surprise,
had to happen.
oz jet is being used because they are the only ones they can get.
another airline is starting the route very shortly, and its my guess that they will blitz the field. they will not be involved with solomon airlines. they will be direct competition.
surprise surprise,
had to happen.
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From yesterday's Solomon Star newspaper.
Wish my business could offer the wrong product initially then turn it around to use as a lever to get substantial rights. Seems like a threat to me in any other language, and the island culture doesn't take too kindly to such - unless it contains the right amount of sweetener
to allow common sense to be put aside. But then, common sense has been lacking in this whole debacle.
All the business community here wants is a decent, capable and reliable service with a suitable aircraft. Why would using the Embraer again under any sort of new arrangement be any better than it was in the past? Can it now carry more bags and passengers? Can it carry enough fuel to allow more than one approach before diverting to Santos? (that would be very handy when Santo is unsuitable 'cos it can't carry enough fuel for anywhere else at present).
The new arrangement with the 737-200 has already seen bags left behind in Brisbane - when will Solomon Airlines look at the problem properly????
AN Australian airline says it will drop millions of dollars in outstanding claims against Solomon Airlines if it is given the right to operate the Honiara-Brisbane route.
SkyAirWorld made the offer as its officials arrived in Honiara for talks with the government and Solomon Airlines.
Chief Executive Officer of the SkyAirWorld, David Charlton, told the Solomon Star last night they are looking forward to having fruitful discussions with local officials.
Solomon Airlines has a valid lease agreement with SkyAirWorld, under which the national carrier acquired a E-170 aircraft.
But Solomon Airlines abandoned the lease earlier this year when it realised it could not pay due to the cost involved.
As a result the E-170 aircraft was grounded in Brisbane, although the three-year lease agreement, signed in April this year, is still valid.
After abandoning its deal with SkyAirWorld, Solomon Airlines took an unprecedented move by entering into a new lease agreement with another Australian airline, Oz Jet.
The action angered SkyAirWorld, which recently demanded millions of dollars from Solomon Airlines in outstanding payments.
However, SkyAirWorld chief executive Mr Charlton said they are here to talk.
“We came with a bag of options,” Mr Charlton said.
“Our position is if your Government give us the right to operate the Honiara-Brisbane route, we will look favourably at waiving all the obligations that Solomon Airlines have with us,” he said.
Mr Charlton said they would be asking the government to give them the right to do that.
“We will start immediately if we are given the approval,” he said.
“We hope to reach an outcome with Solomon Airlines.
“If not, we’ll seek dialogue with the government and we will seek to offer the government the opportunity for us to take over the international operations,” he said.
Mr Charlton said like any business, if they are given the go-ahead, they will pay tax, royalty and other sources of income to the government.
Further, he said, they are planning to improve infrastructure and potentially offering subsidy to Solomon Airlines domestic operations.
SkyAirWorld made the offer as its officials arrived in Honiara for talks with the government and Solomon Airlines.
Chief Executive Officer of the SkyAirWorld, David Charlton, told the Solomon Star last night they are looking forward to having fruitful discussions with local officials.
Solomon Airlines has a valid lease agreement with SkyAirWorld, under which the national carrier acquired a E-170 aircraft.
But Solomon Airlines abandoned the lease earlier this year when it realised it could not pay due to the cost involved.
As a result the E-170 aircraft was grounded in Brisbane, although the three-year lease agreement, signed in April this year, is still valid.
After abandoning its deal with SkyAirWorld, Solomon Airlines took an unprecedented move by entering into a new lease agreement with another Australian airline, Oz Jet.
The action angered SkyAirWorld, which recently demanded millions of dollars from Solomon Airlines in outstanding payments.
However, SkyAirWorld chief executive Mr Charlton said they are here to talk.
“We came with a bag of options,” Mr Charlton said.
“Our position is if your Government give us the right to operate the Honiara-Brisbane route, we will look favourably at waiving all the obligations that Solomon Airlines have with us,” he said.
Mr Charlton said they would be asking the government to give them the right to do that.
“We will start immediately if we are given the approval,” he said.
“We hope to reach an outcome with Solomon Airlines.
“If not, we’ll seek dialogue with the government and we will seek to offer the government the opportunity for us to take over the international operations,” he said.
Mr Charlton said like any business, if they are given the go-ahead, they will pay tax, royalty and other sources of income to the government.
Further, he said, they are planning to improve infrastructure and potentially offering subsidy to Solomon Airlines domestic operations.
“We came with a bag of options,”
All the business community here wants is a decent, capable and reliable service with a suitable aircraft. Why would using the Embraer again under any sort of new arrangement be any better than it was in the past? Can it now carry more bags and passengers? Can it carry enough fuel to allow more than one approach before diverting to Santos? (that would be very handy when Santo is unsuitable 'cos it can't carry enough fuel for anywhere else at present).
The new arrangement with the 737-200 has already seen bags left behind in Brisbane - when will Solomon Airlines look at the problem properly????
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The 732 is definately not the best aircraft for the route, but to take the 170 back on would just be going from bad to worse. They already proved that.
At least the OJ 732 is carrying around 85 pax with bags X BNE, (and a little more than that X HIR), more than the capability of the 170.
To the quoted press release , sounds like a lot of desperation (give us the route back and we will drop any court action we may or might NOT win).
Perhaps Skyairworld should look at trying to find work that works for the type, not try and shoehorn it into something that it obviously does not, purely for its own cash flow purposes.
Anyway, maybe one day some one will find something that can deliver the goods at a fair cost.
At least the OJ 732 is carrying around 85 pax with bags X BNE, (and a little more than that X HIR), more than the capability of the 170.
To the quoted press release , sounds like a lot of desperation (give us the route back and we will drop any court action we may or might NOT win).
Perhaps Skyairworld should look at trying to find work that works for the type, not try and shoehorn it into something that it obviously does not, purely for its own cash flow purposes.
Anyway, maybe one day some one will find something that can deliver the goods at a fair cost.
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If Sayallafter is correct, and I don't doubt it, then carrying 85 passengers and bags in a 737-200 taking somewhat longer than a 737-300 on the route (and burning more fuel per hour) totally defies logical economical sense.
I understand a -300 can take 12 tonnes of passengers/bags/freight and it appears the -200 can take around 9 tonnes. Thus 3 trips in a -300 equates to 4 trips in a -200. Given the higher fuel burn of the latter, the entire exercise of shifting 36 tonnes from Brisbane to Honiara could probably be done in the -300 for 50% of the fuel the -200 uses overall. Now wouldn't that be a saving to Solomon Airlines - paying for 3 trips in lieu of 4 for the same result.
I understand a -300 can take 12 tonnes of passengers/bags/freight and it appears the -200 can take around 9 tonnes. Thus 3 trips in a -300 equates to 4 trips in a -200. Given the higher fuel burn of the latter, the entire exercise of shifting 36 tonnes from Brisbane to Honiara could probably be done in the -300 for 50% of the fuel the -200 uses overall. Now wouldn't that be a saving to Solomon Airlines - paying for 3 trips in lieu of 4 for the same result.
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ivan
I don't think anyone in their right mind would have any doubt about the difference a 300 would make compared to the 200 , but isn't the question at the moment about a 732 versus the E-170 (on that route of course)...considering that is what Skyairworld seems to want to happen. (They don't seem to be offering any more weight or biggger aircraft).
BTW has anyone offered to lease something bigger than that offered, or is it a case of using what is available?
I don't think anyone in their right mind would have any doubt about the difference a 300 would make compared to the 200 , but isn't the question at the moment about a 732 versus the E-170 (on that route of course)...considering that is what Skyairworld seems to want to happen. (They don't seem to be offering any more weight or biggger aircraft).
BTW has anyone offered to lease something bigger than that offered, or is it a case of using what is available?
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Skyairworld
Does anyone know where Skyairworld has moved the Brisbane office to? They have moved out of the fancy office they had at the airport and when you ring the Skyairworld hone number the person who answers the phones says - "you have to contact Telstra to find out where they are" we do not know.
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SAA,
What I was trying to convey was in support of Ringbinders comments that the problem needs to be assessed properly once and for all. The use of the 737-200 is another example of Solomon Airlines inability to properly assess matters and select something that can serve their needs as well, or better, and for much lower costs. After all, I imagine they want their airline to make money. Three trips in the 737-300 for the same result means the current cost of the fourth trip in the 737-200 is foregone profit. That fourth trip is probably costing Solomon Airlines something in the order of $50k. And that is A$2.5m per year unnecessarily spent!!!!
There appears to be nothing else around that can do a decent job and it's not as if Solomon Airlines don't have experience with 737-300's. There is a current glaring example under their very noses in Our Airline which underscores the suitability of that type. In the past they've also had one on lease from Qantas, they used the Air Vanuatu one for a while and they leased the Spanish aircraft. Solomon Airlines are experienced with the 737-300 and well know its capabilities - it defies logic why they don't run with that experience.
What I was trying to convey was in support of Ringbinders comments that the problem needs to be assessed properly once and for all. The use of the 737-200 is another example of Solomon Airlines inability to properly assess matters and select something that can serve their needs as well, or better, and for much lower costs. After all, I imagine they want their airline to make money. Three trips in the 737-300 for the same result means the current cost of the fourth trip in the 737-200 is foregone profit. That fourth trip is probably costing Solomon Airlines something in the order of $50k. And that is A$2.5m per year unnecessarily spent!!!!
There appears to be nothing else around that can do a decent job and it's not as if Solomon Airlines don't have experience with 737-300's. There is a current glaring example under their very noses in Our Airline which underscores the suitability of that type. In the past they've also had one on lease from Qantas, they used the Air Vanuatu one for a while and they leased the Spanish aircraft. Solomon Airlines are experienced with the 737-300 and well know its capabilities - it defies logic why they don't run with that experience.