Virgin and DME arrivals
I may be missing something here, but these days when most aerodromes have RNAV approaches to both ends of the main runway, why would you bother with a DME arrival and circling approach?
Dr
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exclusive employment of automated glass aircraft will render the old school obsolete.
The saddest part is how the promise of increased safety with the help of technology is eroded by the fact that the new technology is making up for the shortfall in flying skills (not necessarily talking about VQ).
but these days when most aerodromes have RNAV approaches to both ends of the main runway, why would you bother with a DME arrival and circling approach?
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“If you stay within the rules the chance of a CFIT is zero. If you step outside the rules the chance of a CFIT is a lot higher. Ergo, stay inside the rules.”
If you stay within all of the rules at any time while committing aviation there would zero human error accidents and therefore virtually no accidents at all.
But we are humans and so there are still a lot of CFIT accidents. The margins for error when circling in a large jet transport in marginal weather are wafer thin when combined with low experience levels of pilots. Sure, if everyone was a top gun pilot like Maui there would be no problems at all, but most airlines experiencing rapid growth in regions such as Asia (where I work) or startups such as Virgin Blue can generally only attract crew with the bare minimum experience to occupy the seat. Employing top guns is not an option and so widening the margins for error is the only pragmatic option left. No circling is just one example.
“As for some regulators banning such approaches, are you REALLY sure. Seems to me that Jepps haven't caught up with that.”
Many airlines in the US such as American Airlines where my son works, no longer train pilots to conduct circling approaches and do not require any proficiency to be demonstrated, something which the FAA fully endorses. TERPS still publish circling minimums but most airlines wont go there.
If you stay within all of the rules at any time while committing aviation there would zero human error accidents and therefore virtually no accidents at all.
But we are humans and so there are still a lot of CFIT accidents. The margins for error when circling in a large jet transport in marginal weather are wafer thin when combined with low experience levels of pilots. Sure, if everyone was a top gun pilot like Maui there would be no problems at all, but most airlines experiencing rapid growth in regions such as Asia (where I work) or startups such as Virgin Blue can generally only attract crew with the bare minimum experience to occupy the seat. Employing top guns is not an option and so widening the margins for error is the only pragmatic option left. No circling is just one example.
“As for some regulators banning such approaches, are you REALLY sure. Seems to me that Jepps haven't caught up with that.”
Many airlines in the US such as American Airlines where my son works, no longer train pilots to conduct circling approaches and do not require any proficiency to be demonstrated, something which the FAA fully endorses. TERPS still publish circling minimums but most airlines wont go there.
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Beerlover,
Virgin intends to introduce RNP approaches, and is pointing training in that direction already, but for now we're happy for QF to shake some of the bigs out of the procedures and equipment with their 738s.
Gentlemen, the discussion is not to "ban" circling approaches; which incidentally have been documented as several times the CFIT risk of any other maneuvers/phases of flight; but that one operator does not support their aircraft doing them when an alternative is available.
Virgin intends to introduce RNP approaches, and is pointing training in that direction already, but for now we're happy for QF to shake some of the bigs out of the procedures and equipment with their 738s.
Gentlemen, the discussion is not to "ban" circling approaches; which incidentally have been documented as several times the CFIT risk of any other maneuvers/phases of flight; but that one operator does not support their aircraft doing them when an alternative is available.
Last edited by Yusef Danet; 29th Mar 2007 at 01:51. Reason: speling
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to my previous, MK is Mackay & yes a/c do deviate around wx, inbound ac was from either SSW or NNW from my recollection.
1. circling apps in jet rpts is ok but the lower the minima, the more difficult the stabilized app is. That's why most overseas operators prefer not to do them as well. Any other app is far less workload.
2. To those who ask why not do an RNP, easy, FMCs usually slow the ac up 15nm out. Add the extra track miles & it adds 5 mins on to the flight. If the cloud base is BKN at 2000'aae, it makes sense to do a DME/GPS arr. After all there is a reason why CASA makes a jet's circuit height 1500' & not 700'. This subject is common sense to a lot, but common sense isn't that common these days. From an operators point of view(for those not operating these a/c) 5minsx300 flights x cost of operating the a/c - time off duty all adds up.
1. circling apps in jet rpts is ok but the lower the minima, the more difficult the stabilized app is. That's why most overseas operators prefer not to do them as well. Any other app is far less workload.
2. To those who ask why not do an RNP, easy, FMCs usually slow the ac up 15nm out. Add the extra track miles & it adds 5 mins on to the flight. If the cloud base is BKN at 2000'aae, it makes sense to do a DME/GPS arr. After all there is a reason why CASA makes a jet's circuit height 1500' & not 700'. This subject is common sense to a lot, but common sense isn't that common these days. From an operators point of view(for those not operating these a/c) 5minsx300 flights x cost of operating the a/c - time off duty all adds up.
Dynasty Trash Hauler
Let me see if I have this right.
You have conceded that if you stay within the rules, you will stay safe.
You contend therefore , that, because some have commited CFIT whilst not following the rules, everyone should be banned from the subject manouevers.
Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds.
If you are unable to fly a basic visual manouvre safely and therefore choose not to do it, I commend you for your responsible attitude and recognition of your limitations.
As you say, some operators have banned the procedure. As I have said before, more power to them. They recognise, and are obviously unwilling to rectify, deficiencies in their training. A commendable attitude. However once again why penalise those who are prepared to properly train and maintain those standards.
Your comment re the FAA and TERPS in no way confirms, in fact it denies, the veracity of your statement re regulatory banning of circling approaches .
QED
Top Guns not required. Just law abiding citizens.
Maui
Let me see if I have this right.
You have conceded that if you stay within the rules, you will stay safe.
You contend therefore , that, because some have commited CFIT whilst not following the rules, everyone should be banned from the subject manouevers.
Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds.
If you are unable to fly a basic visual manouvre safely and therefore choose not to do it, I commend you for your responsible attitude and recognition of your limitations.
As you say, some operators have banned the procedure. As I have said before, more power to them. They recognise, and are obviously unwilling to rectify, deficiencies in their training. A commendable attitude. However once again why penalise those who are prepared to properly train and maintain those standards.
Your comment re the FAA and TERPS in no way confirms, in fact it denies, the veracity of your statement re regulatory banning of circling approaches .
If you stay within all of the rules at any time while committing aviation there would zero human error accidents and therefore virtually no accidents at all
Top Guns not required. Just law abiding citizens.
Maui
Last edited by maui; 27th Mar 2007 at 13:08.
Yes I think Dynasty is being a bit precious. When did you actually do one? If you accept that a jet cannot turn base like a C150 and you employ practical procedures with practical limitations, they are not at all difficult. In fact, if you can't do one, the pax down the back should be worried about your stick and rudder skill/ability. More and more jets are crashing because pilots can't fly, not because they do a min wx circuit and drag the wingtip thru the trees turning base...
...... Bloggsie 
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Ever get the feeling that Maui has never flown for an airline in Asia or the desert.
Mate, you may be an ace and your company may be full of good training, but there are airlines out there with guys in the left seat of widebodies with a couple of thousand hours TT with a guy in the right seat with 200 hours TT who have both been put through a sausage factory training school. Trust me, the last thing you want is them flying around the pattern in poor viz at 400 feet. The smarter companies know this.
Mate, you may be an ace and your company may be full of good training, but there are airlines out there with guys in the left seat of widebodies with a couple of thousand hours TT with a guy in the right seat with 200 hours TT who have both been put through a sausage factory training school. Trust me, the last thing you want is them flying around the pattern in poor viz at 400 feet. The smarter companies know this.
And that dear friend is why some airlines have banned or restricted their use. That is sane and proper for any operator that has no need or desire to train and maintain the required standard.
However the proposal put by the Trash Hauler was that they be banned in total. An unreasonable and unwarranted proposal.
Now if you would address training standards, that is an entirely different and potentially more productive area.
(And BTW you're a bit out of whack in your guess about me.)
Maui
However the proposal put by the Trash Hauler was that they be banned in total. An unreasonable and unwarranted proposal.
Now if you would address training standards, that is an entirely different and potentially more productive area.
(And BTW you're a bit out of whack in your guess about me.)
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Hello Gals & Guys,
The problem is not with the published procedure, rather than the way it is flown.
Next time you have a chance ask a Checkie or Senior Pilot what they think.
The procedure should be spelled out clearly in the Ops manual you are given when you begin.
If you are not issued one there are troubles ahead.
The problem is not with the published procedure, rather than the way it is flown.
Next time you have a chance ask a Checkie or Senior Pilot what they think.
The procedure should be spelled out clearly in the Ops manual you are given when you begin.
If you are not issued one there are troubles ahead.
