Sydney ATC
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: moree caravan park
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sydney ATC
I just though I'd share an experience with everyone to gauge some thoughts on whether this is commonplace in Sydney area ATC operations.
As probably 101% of pilots who have flown out of Bankstown in their training days have done, a flight over to the harbour bridge is a nice way to show passengers around and get a pretty bloody good view of the city at a price comparable to a ticket on the silly (albeit probably spectacular) bridge climb.
The caveat to this however is a force that exists in the midst. This force affects us all and not the strongest cyclone, nor the highest seas can even match the might that this sound wave carries. The sound wave I talk of is the voice of ATC.
Tonight I was turned around at long reef by ATC due simply to the 'Sydney duty runway and staff shortages'. I respectfully acknowledged, turned around and dragged my heels back to Bankstown, reinforcing to my passenger that "don't worry, there is just as much to see in the Bankstown lane of entry anyway". And with that, a confused passenger, and myself a couple of hundred bucks out of pocket I left the airport with an uncomfortable sense of disappointment.
I have heard the radar/terminal controller pull the Sydney duty runway one on me before, and, funnily enough, sometimes you're in, sometimes you're out. I think if a passenger jet is at 1500 feet over the city, a light aircraft near the harbour probably won't be the thing causing them grief.
As for the staff shortages, that was a little hard to swallow. Maybe an ATCer can clear this up for me. How does this affect me? Does it mean one person is manning every frequency and can't get a spare second to read out a generic clearance into an area which is as good as deserted? Or does it mean it has been a little longer since their last cuppa and they need a cover? Frequency congestion and workload certainly weren't the issues, I could hear old mate flicking through womans day as he told me I couldn't get in.
I am completely open minded on this one, if it's a regular occurrence and my being there is going to cause a serious safety breach please tell me how. I know ATC use their discretion on whether you're in or out, and they are not obliged to let you in (just watch this one in the quote box), but should anything other than strictly operational concerns influence this? After all, it is their job isn't it?
What's a couple of hundred bucks?? As with every single training pilot in this country, they know exactly what it is. And when you pull the mixture after promising this flight for god knows how long it tends to bring you down a little.
I'll cop any reasonable comments on this one, but some explanation of any description would be welcomed with open arms.
S&T
As probably 101% of pilots who have flown out of Bankstown in their training days have done, a flight over to the harbour bridge is a nice way to show passengers around and get a pretty bloody good view of the city at a price comparable to a ticket on the silly (albeit probably spectacular) bridge climb.
The caveat to this however is a force that exists in the midst. This force affects us all and not the strongest cyclone, nor the highest seas can even match the might that this sound wave carries. The sound wave I talk of is the voice of ATC.
Tonight I was turned around at long reef by ATC due simply to the 'Sydney duty runway and staff shortages'. I respectfully acknowledged, turned around and dragged my heels back to Bankstown, reinforcing to my passenger that "don't worry, there is just as much to see in the Bankstown lane of entry anyway". And with that, a confused passenger, and myself a couple of hundred bucks out of pocket I left the airport with an uncomfortable sense of disappointment.
I have heard the radar/terminal controller pull the Sydney duty runway one on me before, and, funnily enough, sometimes you're in, sometimes you're out. I think if a passenger jet is at 1500 feet over the city, a light aircraft near the harbour probably won't be the thing causing them grief.
As for the staff shortages, that was a little hard to swallow. Maybe an ATCer can clear this up for me. How does this affect me? Does it mean one person is manning every frequency and can't get a spare second to read out a generic clearance into an area which is as good as deserted? Or does it mean it has been a little longer since their last cuppa and they need a cover? Frequency congestion and workload certainly weren't the issues, I could hear old mate flicking through womans day as he told me I couldn't get in.
I am completely open minded on this one, if it's a regular occurrence and my being there is going to cause a serious safety breach please tell me how. I know ATC use their discretion on whether you're in or out, and they are not obliged to let you in (just watch this one in the quote box), but should anything other than strictly operational concerns influence this? After all, it is their job isn't it?
What's a couple of hundred bucks?? As with every single training pilot in this country, they know exactly what it is. And when you pull the mixture after promising this flight for god knows how long it tends to bring you down a little.
I'll cop any reasonable comments on this one, but some explanation of any description would be welcomed with open arms.
S&T
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: On a Ship Near You
Posts: 787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want to work the system, get to know it - go and visit the ATC cell at Sydney and see what they have to contend with, ask questions.
Staff shortages are significant; Sydney radar has been TIBA a few times in the last month; this happens when we are 3 short; not one short.
Whilst you may be flying in 'deserted' airspace you still have to monitored away from the other bits of fast moving tubes; and the urban areas re MSAW etc. Not doing this gets us in a whole heap of sh!t; just see the Bennalla six thread.
Imagine for a second that you ran your C182 into the top of the coat hangar; and your low altitude was visible for 1nm prior to hitting it; SY comes to a standstill; possible act of terrorism, roads closed, etc; all cause the ATC was unable to monitor you; who's in the poo eventually? Yes the ATC; when their actual priority is to the RPTs landing at the nations busiest airport it's easy to see why the occasional sightseer gets knocked back.
Imagine for a second that you ran your C182 into the top of the coat hangar; and your low altitude was visible for 1nm prior to hitting it; SY comes to a standstill; possible act of terrorism, roads closed, etc; all cause the ATC was unable to monitor you; who's in the poo eventually? Yes the ATC;
Obviously the controller resides on the northside, and was worried about getting home through all that mayhem!!
Didn't happen to coincide with an incident under the bridge by any chance?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: moree caravan park
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, I hear what you're all saying and I have no doubt there's more to reading a clearance out and going back to what you were doing. I was a little upset so don't want to have a dig at atc in general.
So with the staffing levels, I understand it's a problem you have no control over at all, and not a nice situation that you have to deal with yourselves. What I am trying to understand is, how do staff shortages impact you on the front line? Do you have to man more frequencies? Carry out tasks that you generally wouldn't? Or does is mean you are required to work more often for longer each time?
I ask because the uneducated view I have here, and please clear this up for me, is that if someone is there, then it's within their normal duties to deal with requests to enter CTA. So a request to enter for harbour orbits should only be judged based of course on operational safety issues at the time, not how the controller is feeling due to other factors. I'm sure there's more to it than this so I look forward to finding out how it works.
I'd love to come and take a look at ATC operations, I was always under the impression that it would be out of the question with the state of our terrorised world. If one of you could pm me a contact number and I'll give them a call and get on down to check it out.
Thanks for the replies
So with the staffing levels, I understand it's a problem you have no control over at all, and not a nice situation that you have to deal with yourselves. What I am trying to understand is, how do staff shortages impact you on the front line? Do you have to man more frequencies? Carry out tasks that you generally wouldn't? Or does is mean you are required to work more often for longer each time?
I ask because the uneducated view I have here, and please clear this up for me, is that if someone is there, then it's within their normal duties to deal with requests to enter CTA. So a request to enter for harbour orbits should only be judged based of course on operational safety issues at the time, not how the controller is feeling due to other factors. I'm sure there's more to it than this so I look forward to finding out how it works.
I'd love to come and take a look at ATC operations, I was always under the impression that it would be out of the question with the state of our terrorised world. If one of you could pm me a contact number and I'll give them a call and get on down to check it out.
Thanks for the replies
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lacemba!
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have flown through the TIBA airspace recently near BK, and its a bloody disgrace. Especially with respect to IFR aircraft. I don't blame the controllers I blame airservices corperate policy ie Make money by; increase revenue and reduce cost therefore - Staff shortages. Do IFR aircraft get a discount because they are not actually receiving a service even though they are paying for it! Unfortunatly it is not the only part of the industry that is suffering from dollar pinching......
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
Age: 49
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes
on
10 Posts
I don't think there is any blame to be laid with the AtC'ers, they are doing a job they have been instructed to do. lets get that straight. On the other hand yes Australia and particularly Sydney is damn pathetic for lighties ( I have had an instruction to orbit a 747-400 for a 172 VFR coming into LAX before) There is free reign to overfly LAX at or above 3000ft for any lightie (try that in Sydney ) not...
Unfortunatley when it comes to common sense and Australian Aviation regulation... well you can throw it out the door.. Its a fact. Security, GA regs, ASICS, (why have them?) Please write to Airservices...
And if you reall get the $hits just turn your transponder off, is all good then! Before anyone bags me I am not supporting this behaviuor but its common knowledge guys do it especially from out bush. If they have a regulation issue heres a damn regulation tissue. period. Thats what happens when you press too hard.
Unfortunatley when it comes to common sense and Australian Aviation regulation... well you can throw it out the door.. Its a fact. Security, GA regs, ASICS, (why have them?) Please write to Airservices...
And if you reall get the $hits just turn your transponder off, is all good then! Before anyone bags me I am not supporting this behaviuor but its common knowledge guys do it especially from out bush. If they have a regulation issue heres a damn regulation tissue. period. Thats what happens when you press too hard.
