Another Indonesian jet down
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Yes, the journo's footage may be seen as his contribution but if it was at the expense of even a single life, especially that of his colleague, then I simcerely wish him luck sleeping at night, no matter how hardened and desensitised he might be.
I know it's cynical but somehow I doubt crash-investigation was the first thought in his mind when filming.
We've seen that kind of thing before and it gets under my skin.
I really don't want to detract from the main purpose of the thread; sorry for the drift.
I know it's cynical but somehow I doubt crash-investigation was the first thought in his mind when filming.
We've seen that kind of thing before and it gets under my skin.
I really don't want to detract from the main purpose of the thread; sorry for the drift.
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Firstly, condolences to all affected.
Lets hope that after this latest landing accident that the authorities start to realise that aircraft age is not necessarily their biggest concern...it makes no difference if you have a 1 year old or 20 year old airframe - it's how the aircraft is operated (and maintained).
I'm making no assertions about the latter points, suffice to say that I think the focus on age is a convenient excuse for more fundamental issues...
Lets hope that after this latest landing accident that the authorities start to realise that aircraft age is not necessarily their biggest concern...it makes no difference if you have a 1 year old or 20 year old airframe - it's how the aircraft is operated (and maintained).
I'm making no assertions about the latter points, suffice to say that I think the focus on age is a convenient excuse for more fundamental issues...
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Uncle Aunty,
You don't work for the ABC by any chance do you?
So you are trying to tell me that the journo filming was doing it in order to help the crash investigation. Ha right.
Aircraft have Flight data recorders and Cockpit voice recorders. I think the crash investigators will get more out of that those don't you?
I fully agree with scotty doo's sentiments.
You don't work for the ABC by any chance do you?
So you are trying to tell me that the journo filming was doing it in order to help the crash investigation. Ha right.
Aircraft have Flight data recorders and Cockpit voice recorders. I think the crash investigators will get more out of that those don't you?
I fully agree with scotty doo's sentiments.
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Thanks Bloggs...
But this is bothering me. If anyone cares, a mate of mine went through similar burns to the journo who survived (and lived) and also a mate's kid recently was burned to death in an accident. Both cases were unthinkably nasty.
In no way, whatsoever, do I aim to trivialise what happened to her or wish it upon anyone in the world and I really hope she's going to pull through. She and the other survivors.
But this is bothering me. If anyone cares, a mate of mine went through similar burns to the journo who survived (and lived) and also a mate's kid recently was burned to death in an accident. Both cases were unthinkably nasty.
In no way, whatsoever, do I aim to trivialise what happened to her or wish it upon anyone in the world and I really hope she's going to pull through. She and the other survivors.
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F/O Blogs.....your right mate!!! FDR,s and Cockpit voice recorders are no doubt an accident investigator,s tools of the trade(if the A/C is so equiped),...many A/C do not have these Devices....I have flown 727,s,on contract(South America) where the operater has removed said devices....as they were not required.....(dont ask me why,I was in it for the $$$$$$$$$$)
To think this jorno,s objective was to film for accident investigation is a little way out there for sure......but the recording was made and it use(s) will probably be garnished as evidence....
You may or may not be aware,but the FAA and others have been pushing for years to get video recorders in the cockpit,in addition to the FDR and cockpit voice recorder....and it has been debated before on this forum.....
any and all evidence will be critical for those responsible in handling this tradgedy...........PB
To think this jorno,s objective was to film for accident investigation is a little way out there for sure......but the recording was made and it use(s) will probably be garnished as evidence....
You may or may not be aware,but the FAA and others have been pushing for years to get video recorders in the cockpit,in addition to the FDR and cockpit voice recorder....and it has been debated before on this forum.....
any and all evidence will be critical for those responsible in handling this tradgedy...........PB
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The speculation you are all making in regard to the actions or lack thereof of the journo who filmed the aftermath, as low and inappropriate as the behaviour you accuse him of. For a start, he is probably not such an 'expert' in the use of recording devices in accident investigation.
People bahave differently when faced with emotional trauma. You can't expect every traumatised passenger to leave their belongings, and keep their wits. Nor can you expect every traumatised passenger to drag as many bodies as they can from a burning wreckage and commence first aid.
How about we leave the therapy and counceling to those trained in critical incident response?
People bahave differently when faced with emotional trauma. You can't expect every traumatised passenger to leave their belongings, and keep their wits. Nor can you expect every traumatised passenger to drag as many bodies as they can from a burning wreckage and commence first aid.
How about we leave the therapy and counceling to those trained in critical incident response?
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That'll teach her to be a journo eh fellahs?
Bon Giorno
Bon Giorno
I think the point is, most of us revert to what we know, in this case being a journo, seizing the opportunity to make a name for oneself by scooping the pool on a great bit of journalism. Well that it might be, but for what price.
I recall a nasty accident at Calder Park some years ago when a young Craig Lowndes got tangled up with a few at the start of a race, massive spectacular rolls etc ......the rest of the field came to a screaming halt and ran to his aid, not one pointed their car with cameras aboard at the scene! Kind of different scenario, but I am sure you get what I mean.
RIP those who did not make it out.
J
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One Question:
How is film of a burning wreckage from 100 odd metres away, going to help determine the cause of the accident
Clearly the film was taken well after the A/C had come to a stop.
How is film of a burning wreckage from 100 odd metres away, going to help determine the cause of the accident
Clearly the film was taken well after the A/C had come to a stop.
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Firstly condolences to families and friends of the missing. It is a tragic situation and while ch 7 seems to be speculating on "possible sabotage" I think the answer will be more mundane but no less sad.
As to the Cameraman/Journo while not defending their actions in any way, I was wondering if we all saw the footage? Thats the problem, it's a bit hard to flick over and they know we'll watch it. The real dog act was with the Journo who went to the injured womans mums house to ask her questions while her daughter is severely injured far far away. Her stressed response to the questions was a simple " do you have children? " So he kept asking her questions. The old adage of you get the media you deserve just doesn't feel right these days, either that or I'm well out of touch.
As to the Cameraman/Journo while not defending their actions in any way, I was wondering if we all saw the footage? Thats the problem, it's a bit hard to flick over and they know we'll watch it. The real dog act was with the Journo who went to the injured womans mums house to ask her questions while her daughter is severely injured far far away. Her stressed response to the questions was a simple " do you have children? " So he kept asking her questions. The old adage of you get the media you deserve just doesn't feel right these days, either that or I'm well out of touch.
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Only in Indonesia from the "Crikey" Website
Everyone in Indonesia has an airline story
Date: Thursday, 8 March 2007
A frequently flying Jakarta-based expat writes:
Almost everyone who has lived in Indonesia has an airline story. A good one relates to a Garuda flight to Balikpapan. After the plane took off and leveled out the Captain came and started to meet and greet the business class passengers. He was swanning around like Captain Stubing of Love Boat fame. After five mins the co-pilot left the cockpit to find the captain, waiting patiently for an opportune moment to break in and ask his assistance.
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After a few quick words they both turn around to go back to the cockpit to do whatever it was that needed to be done. To the dismay of the passengers the pilots realise that the door to the cockpit had closed, and could only be opened from the inside. Locked out of the cockpit, and in front of the now incredulous passengers, they had to use a fire ax to force the lock and re-take control of the plane.
Funny story, but sadly probably not an urban myth. Certainly believable and not the worst thing to have happened on an Indonesian airline. There will no doubt be lots of newspapers publishing air disaster statistics, but they will not cover the near misses and the shambolic state of the air industry as a whole. I wrote over a year ago a scathing riposte on QANTAS’s overtures to get into the Indonesian aviation industry. I’m sure now they are glad they stepped back.
Adam Air should have been grounded a year ago, except a part owner is speaker of the House of Representatives. Aside from a series of mishaps (mostly covered up) there was the seminal moment when their plane flying to Makassar landed in Sumbawa. Not unlike flying Sydney to Brisbane but ending up on Norfolk island. The pilots were unaware they had landed in the wrong place. No worries though – they took off without clearance and flew back up to their scheduled destination.
Adam Air has only been grounded in the last couple of weeks after another of their planes had a crash landing at the same airport as the Garuda disaster. Another recent Adam Air disaster (killing all 103 passengers) was blamed on the plane's age. It has nothing to do with aging aircraft and everything to do with gross incompetence and corruption.
How bad is the corruption and incompetence in the airlines? Take a theoretical flight from Makassar to Jakarta. When you walk through security the metal detector does not detect anything. A flawed and corrupt procurement system has resulted in defective and un-maintained security equipment. Next, the X-ray of the bags would not be watched. Even if it was watched, the operator is not trained and does not know what to look for. That’s because he, and his colleagues bought their positions and are more interested in scams to make enough money to pay back the loan that got them the job.
When you go to the check in counter you can expect the operator will list you in the computer under a "T" code and not "P" code. This means you are listed as a Transit passenger and the airport tax you just paid at the desk can be pocketed as the system only reconciles tax collected against "P" (passenger) coded individual. Too bad if your plane crashes as there will not be an accurate manifest of passengers on board. This exact scenario happened with the Adam Air flight that crashed. It will be interesting to see if Garuda can produce an accurate manifest.
When you board the plane – keep an eye on the refueling. 18 months ago a local airline accused Pertamina employees of adulterating the fuel and selling the excess. The only problem was they were mixing it down with water. Literally watering down the fuel. This scam was discovered after the airline's maintenance crew, when they opened the tanks, found they had to drain out an excess of condensed water. After complaining the airline was reprimanded for causing trouble and the whole fiasco was swept under the carpet.
As you go up the stairs of your plane, keep an eye on the uncertified maintenance engineers who can’t read the English language manuals.
Once flying take note: the hostesses are not properly trained. I have heard two different first-hand eyewitness accounts on two different crash landings on two different airlines where the hostesses panicked and jumped out of the plane themselves leaving the passengers behind to fend for themselves. There is a story (myth?) of a crash many years ago. The only fatality was a hostess who panicked whilst the plane was doing an emergency landing, popped the door and jumped for her life. She died while everyone else remained seated and survived.
Landing in Jakarta, if you come through the international section – you might see some individuals inside the secure area greeting passengers as they come off the plane. For a mere $30 you can access the secure area beyond the immigration desk without any security check. Even better, the $30 buys you the right to skip the normal queue of people and present your passport at the queue reserved for diplomats. You can pick up your bags and be ushered out the airport without presenting your luggage at customs.
Once outside you have a choice of dodgy taxis who have paid a kick back to have the monopoly rights of their taxis at the airport. They make up the cost by ripping off passengers. Alternatively if you are in a hurry, and you have some serious money you can pay for a police escort to ease your way through the congested traffic into town.
If you are unlucky and happened to be an Indonesian returning home from working as a domestic helper overseas, you get to go through an especially notorious terminal where officials prey on, extort and steal the hard currency earnings of these pitiful folk.
Date: Thursday, 8 March 2007
A frequently flying Jakarta-based expat writes:
Almost everyone who has lived in Indonesia has an airline story. A good one relates to a Garuda flight to Balikpapan. After the plane took off and leveled out the Captain came and started to meet and greet the business class passengers. He was swanning around like Captain Stubing of Love Boat fame. After five mins the co-pilot left the cockpit to find the captain, waiting patiently for an opportune moment to break in and ask his assistance.
Advertisement
After a few quick words they both turn around to go back to the cockpit to do whatever it was that needed to be done. To the dismay of the passengers the pilots realise that the door to the cockpit had closed, and could only be opened from the inside. Locked out of the cockpit, and in front of the now incredulous passengers, they had to use a fire ax to force the lock and re-take control of the plane.
Funny story, but sadly probably not an urban myth. Certainly believable and not the worst thing to have happened on an Indonesian airline. There will no doubt be lots of newspapers publishing air disaster statistics, but they will not cover the near misses and the shambolic state of the air industry as a whole. I wrote over a year ago a scathing riposte on QANTAS’s overtures to get into the Indonesian aviation industry. I’m sure now they are glad they stepped back.
Adam Air should have been grounded a year ago, except a part owner is speaker of the House of Representatives. Aside from a series of mishaps (mostly covered up) there was the seminal moment when their plane flying to Makassar landed in Sumbawa. Not unlike flying Sydney to Brisbane but ending up on Norfolk island. The pilots were unaware they had landed in the wrong place. No worries though – they took off without clearance and flew back up to their scheduled destination.
Adam Air has only been grounded in the last couple of weeks after another of their planes had a crash landing at the same airport as the Garuda disaster. Another recent Adam Air disaster (killing all 103 passengers) was blamed on the plane's age. It has nothing to do with aging aircraft and everything to do with gross incompetence and corruption.
How bad is the corruption and incompetence in the airlines? Take a theoretical flight from Makassar to Jakarta. When you walk through security the metal detector does not detect anything. A flawed and corrupt procurement system has resulted in defective and un-maintained security equipment. Next, the X-ray of the bags would not be watched. Even if it was watched, the operator is not trained and does not know what to look for. That’s because he, and his colleagues bought their positions and are more interested in scams to make enough money to pay back the loan that got them the job.
When you go to the check in counter you can expect the operator will list you in the computer under a "T" code and not "P" code. This means you are listed as a Transit passenger and the airport tax you just paid at the desk can be pocketed as the system only reconciles tax collected against "P" (passenger) coded individual. Too bad if your plane crashes as there will not be an accurate manifest of passengers on board. This exact scenario happened with the Adam Air flight that crashed. It will be interesting to see if Garuda can produce an accurate manifest.
When you board the plane – keep an eye on the refueling. 18 months ago a local airline accused Pertamina employees of adulterating the fuel and selling the excess. The only problem was they were mixing it down with water. Literally watering down the fuel. This scam was discovered after the airline's maintenance crew, when they opened the tanks, found they had to drain out an excess of condensed water. After complaining the airline was reprimanded for causing trouble and the whole fiasco was swept under the carpet.
As you go up the stairs of your plane, keep an eye on the uncertified maintenance engineers who can’t read the English language manuals.
Once flying take note: the hostesses are not properly trained. I have heard two different first-hand eyewitness accounts on two different crash landings on two different airlines where the hostesses panicked and jumped out of the plane themselves leaving the passengers behind to fend for themselves. There is a story (myth?) of a crash many years ago. The only fatality was a hostess who panicked whilst the plane was doing an emergency landing, popped the door and jumped for her life. She died while everyone else remained seated and survived.
Landing in Jakarta, if you come through the international section – you might see some individuals inside the secure area greeting passengers as they come off the plane. For a mere $30 you can access the secure area beyond the immigration desk without any security check. Even better, the $30 buys you the right to skip the normal queue of people and present your passport at the queue reserved for diplomats. You can pick up your bags and be ushered out the airport without presenting your luggage at customs.
Once outside you have a choice of dodgy taxis who have paid a kick back to have the monopoly rights of their taxis at the airport. They make up the cost by ripping off passengers. Alternatively if you are in a hurry, and you have some serious money you can pay for a police escort to ease your way through the congested traffic into town.
If you are unlucky and happened to be an Indonesian returning home from working as a domestic helper overseas, you get to go through an especially notorious terminal where officials prey on, extort and steal the hard currency earnings of these pitiful folk.
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When you board the plane – keep an eye on the refueling. 18 months ago a local airline accused Pertamina employees of adulterating the fuel and selling the excess. The only problem was they were mixing it down with water. Literally watering down the fuel. This scam was discovered after the airline's maintenance crew, when they opened the tanks, found they had to drain out an excess of condensed water. After complaining the airline was reprimanded for causing trouble and the whole fiasco was swept under the carpet.
You cannot "water down" fuel with water. All avtur aircraft fuel tanks will have small amounts of water within.
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Scotty Doo:
My understanding is the 7 cameraman had broken both his legs in the crash and managed to drag himself clear of the plane before hitting record.
Still think he should have gone back in to try and rescue others in the plane?
My understanding is the 7 cameraman had broken both his legs in the crash and managed to drag himself clear of the plane before hitting record.
Still think he should have gone back in to try and rescue others in the plane?
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My understanding is the 7 cameraman had broken both his legs in the crash
The camera was small and probably close to hand at the time of the crash so lets leave the cameraman and move on to the next cheap target....
At last report, 6 of 7 crew survived.....given the overall casualties and their responsibilities, is this a high survival rate or is there something more sinister to it.....
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Cunning....you are right mate...100 metres away.....what might you ask could anyone see???.....the fact is...this might not be the only footage that was shot.....joe blow...sitting in the living room ,may have had a camera...and seen the whole approach.....and nothing to do with the jorno sagarso......
come on guys...as ****ty as it sounds,and as terrible as this situation is....lets get past the "hollywood" and concentrate on the real situation...the news reports indicate a very fast app and landing..we have seen this before(SW Airlines) and they were lucky,if thats what you want to call it.....the fatalities were low.....
when this thing all shakes out....and it will....none of us wll be too surprised...why...because its been done before.....its just a bloody shame its keeps being repeated.....ILL bite my tounge
PB
Cunniglinguist....need to have a chinwaggle wiff you...have some interesting info of a secret nature....007 stuff...PB
come on guys...as ****ty as it sounds,and as terrible as this situation is....lets get past the "hollywood" and concentrate on the real situation...the news reports indicate a very fast app and landing..we have seen this before(SW Airlines) and they were lucky,if thats what you want to call it.....the fatalities were low.....
when this thing all shakes out....and it will....none of us wll be too surprised...why...because its been done before.....its just a bloody shame its keeps being repeated.....ILL bite my tounge
PBCunniglinguist....need to have a chinwaggle wiff you...have some interesting info of a secret nature....007 stuff...PB
Last edited by pakeha-boy; 8th Mar 2007 at 03:42.
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Adam Air has only been grounded in the last couple of weeks after another of their planes had a crash landing at the same airport as the Garuda disaster.
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Rightly or wrongly, it is usual for Jounros to cover a story as if they are not there. Whether its earthquakes, wars, or cats up a tree, the idea, I beleive, is to sit back and watch and report on how things unfold. Most people have already made up their mind if they agree with this way of thinking or not and thats their opinion. Again rightly or wrongly, I don't doubt that the journo would have had his butt kicked if the boss knew he/she were on board and didn't get something news-worthy out of it.
A similar occurence springs to mind when an Ethiopian Airlines plane was highjacked and crashed into the sea - a cameraman (I don't know if it was a professional or not) remained on the beach taking pictures while others swam out to help survivors.
Personally I found the footage interesting in looking at the passengers' reaction to the crisis. Who was helping others? Who was helping themself? Who was helpless? While no technical information as the cause of the crash may be gained from the footage, perhaps an analysis of the success of the evacuation as well as how the actions of passengers can affect the survivability of the crash. I haven't looked that closely mind you, don't know if that sort of thing is covered.
A similar occurence springs to mind when an Ethiopian Airlines plane was highjacked and crashed into the sea - a cameraman (I don't know if it was a professional or not) remained on the beach taking pictures while others swam out to help survivors.
Personally I found the footage interesting in looking at the passengers' reaction to the crisis. Who was helping others? Who was helping themself? Who was helpless? While no technical information as the cause of the crash may be gained from the footage, perhaps an analysis of the success of the evacuation as well as how the actions of passengers can affect the survivability of the crash. I haven't looked that closely mind you, don't know if that sort of thing is covered.
The Reverend
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If the reporter had not broken his leg, in most probability the footage would not have been shot. He would have run away from the blazing wreck as far as he could, just like everybody else that was able to do it.
At last report, 6 of 7 crew survived.....given the overall casualties and their responsibilities, is this a high survival rate or is there something more sinister to it.....
AFAIK cabin crew are, as part of their training, instructed that if their lives are in peril they are to get out. They are not (and should not be) expected to stay in a risky situation even to save others. That some of them do in this sort of event is utterly heroic, I think.
I'm fortunate to have never been in something like this. Don't know how I'd react. And I think, neither does anyone else. I'd like to think I'd be on to it, helpful, cool calm collected etc, but the truth is that until you experience it, you don't know. Reactions can vary from the truly heroic to the frozen in shock, and everything in between.
And any of these reactions are normal, in a shocking situation. In a former life, I was in the Fire Brigade, and have seen a fairly wide range of reactions to shock, even in trained professionals, and in myself. It's all normal, like it or not. (Apparently) admirable or not.
Let's put the armchair judgements aside.
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And those at the back said forward
You are right. Let those at the site, who know what they are doing do there work, and make factual reports. Wild speculation is not helpful.
Last edited by bushy; 8th Mar 2007 at 08:18. Reason: big fingers-small keys