Pilots to fight for Qantas
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Lunacy?
Mulder,
Yes. Qantas will now help pilots to screw them. Brilliant isn't it. Qantas will never suspect.
And everyone will live happily ever-after.
Ian Woods is now saying that he wants "the consortium" (of which Qantas is a party having recommended the deal) to fund the pilots to overturn the takeover.
And everyone will live happily ever-after.
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The title of this thread is 'Pilots to fight for Qantas'. It is missing a word at the end "Pilots". Seems many at AIPA have just woken up to the fact that they are dinosaurs in a different market, lets hope its not too late. Should have taken the blinkers off years ago guys and worked as an industry leader and not as an exclusive club. The corporate blow torch is well and truly on your a$$es now, get smart quickly, roll with some of the punches and live to fight another day. Remember the higher the perch, the greater the fall.
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Yeah right! And if the ACCC or FIRB or Costello knock it on the head, will they see a class action?
How about QF management? Didn't see too many class actions when the shares languished around $3.00 following $5.00 highs.
I do agree though. This is a stupid idea from AIPA and yet another bullet hole in the foot!
How about QF management? Didn't see too many class actions when the shares languished around $3.00 following $5.00 highs.
I do agree though. This is a stupid idea from AIPA and yet another bullet hole in the foot!
Nothing.
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Gee Keg,
You must have always received:
Are you sure you work for Qantas because I don't recall any of this stuff being there prior to the last few "regimes" getting them for you.
For a bloke who has had the benefit of Qantas paying for your flying training, and other pilots working to make your life better, you sure are unappreciative and miserable at times.
You must have always received:
Are you sure you work for Qantas because I don't recall any of this stuff being there prior to the last few "regimes" getting them for you.
For a bloke who has had the benefit of Qantas paying for your flying training, and other pilots working to make your life better, you sure are unappreciative and miserable at times.
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Mulder, LTBC, you are being very selective and one would think, deliberately so. The IR changes in March have produced a situation where very little can be achieved, even if both the parties agree, outside of an EBA negotiation.
You probably know that, but never let the facts get in the way of some juicy disinformation.
There will shortly be three EBA's open. Why don't you save your comments till the conclusion of the negotiations before you start getting vindictive?
You probably know that, but never let the facts get in the way of some juicy disinformation.
There will shortly be three EBA's open. Why don't you save your comments till the conclusion of the negotiations before you start getting vindictive?
Borg, while the new IR laws have indeed changed the framework, the incapacity of AIPA these days is caused by problems far simpler. This isn't the forum to point out the specifics, but recent media coverage has made some of them glaringly obvious.
Earnesty and sincerity does not win negotiations. It wins votes.
Earnesty and sincerity does not win negotiations. It wins votes.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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tell em their dreamin
At EK we get
No min credit for trips
No credit for our own sim and 3:50 if doing sim support
No credit for leave
No credit for sick leave (with or without certificate)
No Choice in Super fund and no defined benefit
No access to lounge unless on Annual Leave ticket without kids
$210000 to $450000 loss of licence tax free
Minimal payrises which are collectively less than half the CPI.
And most importantly absolutely no ability to negotiate any of the above.
This is what your management is comparing you package to. If you think you can successfully argue that you are low paid and working under poor conditions, you're dreamin'
V
No min credit for trips
No credit for our own sim and 3:50 if doing sim support
No credit for leave
No credit for sick leave (with or without certificate)
No Choice in Super fund and no defined benefit
No access to lounge unless on Annual Leave ticket without kids
$210000 to $450000 loss of licence tax free
Minimal payrises which are collectively less than half the CPI.
And most importantly absolutely no ability to negotiate any of the above.
This is what your management is comparing you package to. If you think you can successfully argue that you are low paid and working under poor conditions, you're dreamin'
V
Nunc est bibendum
Thread Starter
Geez Mulder, talk about 'small potatoes'.....and only half the story. I'll address some of your points so far.
151 was a win for sure. It affects about 20 F/Os on the 744 many of whom would be regularly flying divisor plus due to the numbers being (continually) so tight. Seen the thread on Qrewroom about the riot clause? That's right. We also took a pay freeze to get it. I haven't done a blank line since it came in. Result for majority of pilots? Zero.
5:30? Sorry, I got 5:10 and then had to give away a bunch of annual leave to get to 5:30 despite being told that the 'offsets had to be agreed' and if AIPA didn't agree then we still got the 5:30. I didn't know at the time the offset would be my annual leave. I did a quick calculation of my trips since the 5:30 came in. It didn't make much of a difference to me either before or after. It did help some others and yahoo for them. They got an extra day off per bid period.
PLH credits for leave on a blank line? Very small number of crew so costs QF very, very little. Great for those crew though.
Full credit for sick leave. Win undoubtedly.
Choice of fund? Federal legislation. I'm in Div 2.
Access to the lounge? Big deal. Nice but I'd happily give it away to claw back some of the stuff we gave away. That was the same year we had a pay freeze.
Loss of license? Win. How many pilots avail themselves of it? Not many hopefully. It may be the only thing we can get an increase on at the moment given that the 'cost' to QF is marginal.
Shall we start to look at what we've given away or been locked out from over the same time frame?
Pay freeze in 2002. Cost to superannuation- in excess of $100K tax free.
No coverage of group pilots despite many crew advocating such a stance.
Two bites at pattern protection and for a truck load longer than before.
No bonus scheme despite it being on the 'table'.
Singapore basing for S/Os.
Locked out of J* domestic discussions despite a statement in the EBA that we'd be a party to discussions for a LCC.
Locked out of J* interational discussions.
I show my appreciation when it's warranted. Geoff Dixon has a personal letter showing my appreciation for something a bunch of years ago. Chris has a couple of personal emails stating the same thing. A few of the AIPA COM have had personal phone calls and I always ensure that it's my round when I hook up with them up the track. So whilst you may think you know me on the basis of a couple of posts here and on Qrewroom you're way off the mark- as those who really know me would attest. Further, Being 'appreciative' of my opportunities in life including the QF cadetship doesn't make me a company 'bitch' for eternity. I pay my dues now and I pass the checks the same as every other person- which means I have as much right as the next person to be entirely underwhelmed with where previous AIPA regimes have got us to in the last five-six years.
Finally, criticism of past regimes should not be assumed to be a ringing endorsement for the current regime. Their hard road is ahead of them. Enough playing, back to the real fun in my life.
Merry Christmas and I hope we hook up in the New Year. My shout and perhaps we'll iron out some of the perceived differences.
151 was a win for sure. It affects about 20 F/Os on the 744 many of whom would be regularly flying divisor plus due to the numbers being (continually) so tight. Seen the thread on Qrewroom about the riot clause? That's right. We also took a pay freeze to get it. I haven't done a blank line since it came in. Result for majority of pilots? Zero.
5:30? Sorry, I got 5:10 and then had to give away a bunch of annual leave to get to 5:30 despite being told that the 'offsets had to be agreed' and if AIPA didn't agree then we still got the 5:30. I didn't know at the time the offset would be my annual leave. I did a quick calculation of my trips since the 5:30 came in. It didn't make much of a difference to me either before or after. It did help some others and yahoo for them. They got an extra day off per bid period.
PLH credits for leave on a blank line? Very small number of crew so costs QF very, very little. Great for those crew though.
Full credit for sick leave. Win undoubtedly.
Choice of fund? Federal legislation. I'm in Div 2.
Access to the lounge? Big deal. Nice but I'd happily give it away to claw back some of the stuff we gave away. That was the same year we had a pay freeze.
Loss of license? Win. How many pilots avail themselves of it? Not many hopefully. It may be the only thing we can get an increase on at the moment given that the 'cost' to QF is marginal.
Shall we start to look at what we've given away or been locked out from over the same time frame?
Pay freeze in 2002. Cost to superannuation- in excess of $100K tax free.
No coverage of group pilots despite many crew advocating such a stance.
Two bites at pattern protection and for a truck load longer than before.
No bonus scheme despite it being on the 'table'.
Singapore basing for S/Os.
Locked out of J* domestic discussions despite a statement in the EBA that we'd be a party to discussions for a LCC.
Locked out of J* interational discussions.
For a bloke who has had the benefit of Qantas paying for your flying training, and other pilots working to make your life better, you sure are unappreciative and miserable at times.
Finally, criticism of past regimes should not be assumed to be a ringing endorsement for the current regime. Their hard road is ahead of them. Enough playing, back to the real fun in my life.
Merry Christmas and I hope we hook up in the New Year. My shout and perhaps we'll iron out some of the perceived differences.
Join Date: Mar 2002
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At EK we get
No min credit for trips
No credit for our own sim and 3:50 if doing sim support
No credit for leave
No credit for sick leave (with or without certificate)
No Choice in Super fund and no defined benefit
No access to lounge unless on Annual Leave ticket without kids
$210000 to $450000 loss of licence tax free
Minimal payrises which are collectively less than half the CPI.
And most importantly absolutely no ability to negotiate any of the above.
QF short haul,
No min credit...check
4 hour credit for sim
Average actual pay for leave
3 hour credit for sick leave
BUT BUT BUT our divisor is 55! So to get a decent pay you need credits for everything or your on the phone to explain why your mortgage deduction bounced..
No real choice for super, div 3, most newer guys in this, will end up being worth less than $1 mill. In 30 yrs, sounds like lot? In todays terms whats it worth? $250K Can you retire on that?
Lounge? WTF?
LOL? lol alright, get your own if you really want its not real xxxy
CPI payrise. Haven't had a payrise in 5 years. Talk about cpi! In oz cpi understates whats really happening with cost of living. FACT.
So tell me Vorsicht, other than allowances, do you lose money when you are sick? If you go sick at QF SH, say 3 day trip worth 15 hours, sick pay cover 9 hours and you are out 6 hours pay! Simple! Don't go sick, fly when you shouldn't, right?? OR at EK do you still get your divisor pay?
Also, doesn't inflation at DXB include the astronimical house price increases to which you are immune if you take the comapny accom?
Finally, do you get divisor pay when on leave? Thought so.
AND THANKS TO WORK CHOICES AND GD, ABSOLUTELY NO ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE ON ANY OF THESE. AND NO CAREER PROGESSION
No min credit for trips
No credit for our own sim and 3:50 if doing sim support
No credit for leave
No credit for sick leave (with or without certificate)
No Choice in Super fund and no defined benefit
No access to lounge unless on Annual Leave ticket without kids
$210000 to $450000 loss of licence tax free
Minimal payrises which are collectively less than half the CPI.
And most importantly absolutely no ability to negotiate any of the above.
QF short haul,
No min credit...check
4 hour credit for sim
Average actual pay for leave
3 hour credit for sick leave
BUT BUT BUT our divisor is 55! So to get a decent pay you need credits for everything or your on the phone to explain why your mortgage deduction bounced..
No real choice for super, div 3, most newer guys in this, will end up being worth less than $1 mill. In 30 yrs, sounds like lot? In todays terms whats it worth? $250K Can you retire on that?
Lounge? WTF?
LOL? lol alright, get your own if you really want its not real xxxy
CPI payrise. Haven't had a payrise in 5 years. Talk about cpi! In oz cpi understates whats really happening with cost of living. FACT.
So tell me Vorsicht, other than allowances, do you lose money when you are sick? If you go sick at QF SH, say 3 day trip worth 15 hours, sick pay cover 9 hours and you are out 6 hours pay! Simple! Don't go sick, fly when you shouldn't, right?? OR at EK do you still get your divisor pay?
Also, doesn't inflation at DXB include the astronimical house price increases to which you are immune if you take the comapny accom?
Finally, do you get divisor pay when on leave? Thought so.
AND THANKS TO WORK CHOICES AND GD, ABSOLUTELY NO ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE ON ANY OF THESE. AND NO CAREER PROGESSION
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Beautifully put, WLGHilton
I'll quote, to save searching back:
The title of this thread is 'Pilots to fight for Qantas'. It is missing a word at the end "Pilots". Seems many at AIPA have just woken up to the fact that they are dinosaurs in a different market, lets hope its not too late. Should have taken the blinkers off years ago guys and worked as an industry leader and not as an exclusive club. The corporate blow torch is well and truly on your a$$es now, get smart quickly, roll with some of the punches and live to fight another day. Remember the higher the perch, the greater the fall.
I'll quote, to save searching back:
The title of this thread is 'Pilots to fight for Qantas'. It is missing a word at the end "Pilots". Seems many at AIPA have just woken up to the fact that they are dinosaurs in a different market, lets hope its not too late. Should have taken the blinkers off years ago guys and worked as an industry leader and not as an exclusive club. The corporate blow torch is well and truly on your a$$es now, get smart quickly, roll with some of the punches and live to fight another day. Remember the higher the perch, the greater the fall.
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Borg,
Negotiations? Negotiations? What makes you think there will be any real negotiations? Why would Qantas want to negotiate? You are not looking at the big picture. Why would they negotiate with all sorts of legal actions still annoying them? And if you think they are scared of the Pilots, well I'm sorry for you.
Keg,
Can't say I agree with you. If that were the case you would be a lot more grateful for what you have. Seniority number 1199 is senior enough to be a 737 or 767 Captain. You could have been a Captain in about eight or nine years...not bad for someone who had no real experience before joining Qantas. Ask some of the 1200 pilots behind you if they feel sorry for you.
Your selective summation of the changes to the LHCA in the last six years is unhelpful..your view is "if it doesn't help Keg, it's unimportant". Well sorry pal, but every change has been necessary and was or will be appreciated by almost all of us at some stage of our careers.
To denigrate those who successfully worked to improve the lives of their colleagues and their families is unfair.
WLGHILTON,
Yes.
There will shortly be three EBA's open. Why don't you save your comments till the conclusion of the negotiations before you start getting vindictive?
Keg,
I show my appreciation when it's warranted.
Your selective summation of the changes to the LHCA in the last six years is unhelpful..your view is "if it doesn't help Keg, it's unimportant". Well sorry pal, but every change has been necessary and was or will be appreciated by almost all of us at some stage of our careers.
To denigrate those who successfully worked to improve the lives of their colleagues and their families is unfair.
WLGHILTON,
Seems many at AIPA have just woken up to the fact that they are dinosaurs in a different market, lets hope its not too late.
Dear Keg,
How you feel is typical in QF and a result of QF's drive to create and maintain an atmosphere of fear and insecurity within the workforce. This has resulted in the change of attitude of the pilot group and once again is the fault of management.
To be fair 151 hrs is a big deal to the junior mob and all these little things make a difference. I bet the 330 boys and girls are happy about 151 at the moment too. The point being if it all turns sour the award provides a tremendous amount of security. In addition is the super, which is one of the best in the country. Tie in Flight Op management's history of bending over backwards to help individuals and the glass seems to be more half full!
Based on the fact that the ARG hasn't got any runs on the board yet, I'll save my comparison regarding different approaches 'till later.
How you feel is typical in QF and a result of QF's drive to create and maintain an atmosphere of fear and insecurity within the workforce. This has resulted in the change of attitude of the pilot group and once again is the fault of management.
To be fair 151 hrs is a big deal to the junior mob and all these little things make a difference. I bet the 330 boys and girls are happy about 151 at the moment too. The point being if it all turns sour the award provides a tremendous amount of security. In addition is the super, which is one of the best in the country. Tie in Flight Op management's history of bending over backwards to help individuals and the glass seems to be more half full!
Based on the fact that the ARG hasn't got any runs on the board yet, I'll save my comparison regarding different approaches 'till later.
Nunc est bibendum
Thread Starter
Nice to see that we're staying on topic. 
Bzzzz. Thank you for playing but incorrect on a few issues. 1182 is my mailbox. My seniority is 1199. Incorrect on the 737 front too I expect. Name the 737 driver junior to me and I'll stick in the redress straight up. I've actually had bids in for both for years now although did some recent amendments due to personal issues. I've yet to see a mainline promotion command allocated to a crew member junior to me. In fact, I'm yet to see a mainline promotion command to a number that is within 50 senior to me. Mainline command is probably three to five years away. Of course I could have uprooted my family and gone to Cairns with AO but the divorce would have put paid to any joy that brought. I guess I should have taken the slot and just commuted (against the rules) as others have done.
Selective memory? I'm pointing out the things that Mulder neglected to mention in his post to give the full story. Yeah we had some wins and I even voted 'yes' for a couple of them- not because I was thrilled that they were outstanding achievements but because I felt that they were the best deal in the circumstances- so you can take your statements about what is good for Keg and shove them.
I've never asked anyone to feel sorry for me and have nothing that anyone should feel sorry for me about. I'm pretty comfortable with what I've done and the opportunities that I've been given. I went through some of the dark days on the 767 and had some good days in the later years. Not after sympathy so don't bother with that line. Again though that doesn't mean that I have to be over the moon ecstatic with all aspects of the job.
Now that's ironic. Lecturing me on denigrating those in AIPA. ROFL. Hypocrite.
Feel like catching up for a beer and talking face to face Lucius? Much easier to sort this stuff out that way...although you'd probably also know that I'm more likely to order a soft drink than a beer but I'm still prepared to go my round.
(I note you've edited my seniority details. Did you look at the wrong numbers on Bidbook? )
Selective memory? I'm pointing out the things that Mulder neglected to mention in his post to give the full story. Yeah we had some wins and I even voted 'yes' for a couple of them- not because I was thrilled that they were outstanding achievements but because I felt that they were the best deal in the circumstances- so you can take your statements about what is good for Keg and shove them.
I've never asked anyone to feel sorry for me and have nothing that anyone should feel sorry for me about. I'm pretty comfortable with what I've done and the opportunities that I've been given. I went through some of the dark days on the 767 and had some good days in the later years. Not after sympathy so don't bother with that line. Again though that doesn't mean that I have to be over the moon ecstatic with all aspects of the job.
Feel like catching up for a beer and talking face to face Lucius? Much easier to sort this stuff out that way...although you'd probably also know that I'm more likely to order a soft drink than a beer but I'm still prepared to go my round.
(I note you've edited my seniority details. Did you look at the wrong numbers on Bidbook?
)
Last edited by Keg; 23rd Dec 2006 at 00:22. Reason: Fixing up typos but I've probably still missed some.