Transair and the Regulator.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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financial records
Sox and the left handed rock thrower have raised very genuine points - CASA require as part of the initialissue a statement of financial viability of an organisation. Does this involve more than a cursory glance by the regulaotry services centre? or is the model properly costed against known industry costs?
Surely the financial records of a company in operation - especially after an accident are examined ? Then the affordability for maintenance, training and safety can be openly sighted.
I appreciate the commercial confidentiality regarding shareholdings etc.. but basic operational profit and loss should be available to the regulator - affordable safety rings a bell!
What was the financial status of the concerned company in the months leading up to the accident? what during the CASA action? What caused the AOC to be 'surrendered'?
Rock on the coroner's inquest - there a re more and more rocks which need to be turned over here!
Surely the financial records of a company in operation - especially after an accident are examined ? Then the affordability for maintenance, training and safety can be openly sighted.
I appreciate the commercial confidentiality regarding shareholdings etc.. but basic operational profit and loss should be available to the regulator - affordable safety rings a bell!
What was the financial status of the concerned company in the months leading up to the accident? what during the CASA action? What caused the AOC to be 'surrendered'?
Rock on the coroner's inquest - there a re more and more rocks which need to be turned over here!
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Sox,
"Very few have much idea about business or the sociology of a bad operator", i would have to disagree with the last part of this statement.
An FOI or AWI with a solid aviation background, covering a number of different operators will have exactly that, they will know exactly where to look and for what.
Sitting some university module would be in comparision to experience, a waste of time. it may augment the knowledge of the experienced FOI / AWI, thats about it.
Having an FOI with a flying school back ground looking at an RPT operation would be a useless event.
Cash flow and balance sheets are not the realm of an FOI or AWI.
"Very few have much idea about business or the sociology of a bad operator", i would have to disagree with the last part of this statement.
An FOI or AWI with a solid aviation background, covering a number of different operators will have exactly that, they will know exactly where to look and for what.
Sitting some university module would be in comparision to experience, a waste of time. it may augment the knowledge of the experienced FOI / AWI, thats about it.
Having an FOI with a flying school back ground looking at an RPT operation would be a useless event.
Cash flow and balance sheets are not the realm of an FOI or AWI.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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"An FOI or AWI with a solid aviation background, covering a number of different operators will have exactly that, they will know exactly where to look and for what."
They don't seem able to draw a line before the accident though do they? If they highlight problems they are reliant on the organisation to fix them. If the organisation is weak then the response is weak and the resulting spiral becomes very visible to ALL after the accident.
Perhaps we need a different type of Inspector.
They don't seem able to draw a line before the accident though do they? If they highlight problems they are reliant on the organisation to fix them. If the organisation is weak then the response is weak and the resulting spiral becomes very visible to ALL after the accident.
Perhaps we need a different type of Inspector.
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Sox,
That argument is baseless, one accident that appears not to be systemic or cultural, how can any one anticipate an honest mistake.
FOI's and AWI's being who they are today has probably averting thousands of accidents.
I am not sure whether you are suggesting a sociology/accident prevention specialst, to identify a bad safety culture. From my experience university trained specialists are as usefull as tits on a bull, HR etc etc.
There is still a great deal of mis-information regarding this organisation, to quote Kiaruku Kid "AOC to be 'surrendered'", now thats not the truth is it ?.
Where as the CASA webite states "At the request of the operator", see my point ?.
Kiaruku Kid, with respect, you state that many of the SOP's were not in the Ops Manual, such as what, fuel flows/TAS for operations, check lists, pax manifests, tech logs ?, what exactly ?, what position did you hold within the organisation, if you saw information missing in the ops man, why didn't you inform management ?, if it was safety orientated when did you inform ATSB ?.
i have flown with some of TA products, and was not impressed, but they were no different to a similar operator out of FNQ. How do you explain that ?.
TA is in my opinion no different to any other operator in GA, even the bigger shiny operations have had huge "occurences" that luckily did not cost live, purely by luck, this is a witch hunt, as suggested earlier, did they offer prizes for the biggest mistake of the week ?.
That argument is baseless, one accident that appears not to be systemic or cultural, how can any one anticipate an honest mistake.
FOI's and AWI's being who they are today has probably averting thousands of accidents.
I am not sure whether you are suggesting a sociology/accident prevention specialst, to identify a bad safety culture. From my experience university trained specialists are as usefull as tits on a bull, HR etc etc.
There is still a great deal of mis-information regarding this organisation, to quote Kiaruku Kid "AOC to be 'surrendered'", now thats not the truth is it ?.
Where as the CASA webite states "At the request of the operator", see my point ?.
Kiaruku Kid, with respect, you state that many of the SOP's were not in the Ops Manual, such as what, fuel flows/TAS for operations, check lists, pax manifests, tech logs ?, what exactly ?, what position did you hold within the organisation, if you saw information missing in the ops man, why didn't you inform management ?, if it was safety orientated when did you inform ATSB ?.
i have flown with some of TA products, and was not impressed, but they were no different to a similar operator out of FNQ. How do you explain that ?.
TA is in my opinion no different to any other operator in GA, even the bigger shiny operations have had huge "occurences" that luckily did not cost live, purely by luck, this is a witch hunt, as suggested earlier, did they offer prizes for the biggest mistake of the week ?.
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"FOI's and AWI's being who they are today has probably averting thousands of accidents."
Perhaps you could expand on that expansive claim please.
Or are you confusing accidents with RCAs from your earlier statement "if CASA looked close enough at any operation they would find issues that would probably warrant an RCA or two"?
Though last time you then did said that having those RCAs "does not mean the operator is "unsafe"". Or are you now saying that there many unsafe Australian operators saved by effective FOI's and AWI's?
Perhaps you could expand on that expansive claim please.
Or are you confusing accidents with RCAs from your earlier statement "if CASA looked close enough at any operation they would find issues that would probably warrant an RCA or two"?
Though last time you then did said that having those RCAs "does not mean the operator is "unsafe"". Or are you now saying that there many unsafe Australian operators saved by effective FOI's and AWI's?
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Averted thousands of accidents, what are you unsure of ?, how would you like me to expand that expansive claim ?
.
Here's a question, do you think having RBT units at random locations around all capital citys saved lives last night ?, i certainly do, same applies for CASA takes a similar role by doing audits, setting out legislation, ramp checks and licence testing.
RCA - If you've seen an RCA, you'll know that it can be issued for a range of reason from a spelling mistake in your ops manual to being caught with a pilot flying line operations on an expired medical. I would be suprised if a spelling mistake in an ops manual could ever be the cause of a fatality.
All operators in Australia enjoy "safer skies" because CASA/ATSB/ASA are always on the ground somewhere, always looking at the relevance of legislation ( although very slow to act at times - CAR 206 ), regularly auditing operators looking for excursions from legislation or SOPs, the list goes on.
In my opinion CASA are not perfect, neither am i, but imagine our industry without them ?.
.Here's a question, do you think having RBT units at random locations around all capital citys saved lives last night ?, i certainly do, same applies for CASA takes a similar role by doing audits, setting out legislation, ramp checks and licence testing.
RCA - If you've seen an RCA, you'll know that it can be issued for a range of reason from a spelling mistake in your ops manual to being caught with a pilot flying line operations on an expired medical. I would be suprised if a spelling mistake in an ops manual could ever be the cause of a fatality.
All operators in Australia enjoy "safer skies" because CASA/ATSB/ASA are always on the ground somewhere, always looking at the relevance of legislation ( although very slow to act at times - CAR 206 ), regularly auditing operators looking for excursions from legislation or SOPs, the list goes on.
In my opinion CASA are not perfect, neither am i, but imagine our industry without them ?.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: S08 43.33 E146 34.22
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LRT many items were deficiecnt - and NOT the realm of the ATSB until an incident occured - and many more were raised but have not seen the light of day yet over the deficiencies in the organisation. What was missing mmm? Let me think? Incorrect checklists with some strange interpretation of CAR 232 approval! No written policy on multi crew who does what etc! No documentented SOP for crew adherance! No safety policies and awareness information! the list is many.
As for advice to company - many attempts were made but the process was not taken up in time - in fact it was not until the last 2 months before we saw any light in the company manuals.
Yes the products are all similar and some are not impressive - but as usual it was very much up to the individuals to gain the information and set the standard they wanted - it was never spelt out in company policy.
As for the safety meetings - well I have sat on a few of them and there was no investigation just blame laying and no changes to SOP to ensure reoccurance was minimised - but that is now a fact as the ATSB found when examining the safety system.
As for the 'surrender' or the 'requestof the operator' the fact that the barristers bill was going to be enormous and the lack of an effective safety reporting system where the last straws.
As for advice to company - many attempts were made but the process was not taken up in time - in fact it was not until the last 2 months before we saw any light in the company manuals.
Yes the products are all similar and some are not impressive - but as usual it was very much up to the individuals to gain the information and set the standard they wanted - it was never spelt out in company policy.
As for the safety meetings - well I have sat on a few of them and there was no investigation just blame laying and no changes to SOP to ensure reoccurance was minimised - but that is now a fact as the ATSB found when examining the safety system.
As for the 'surrender' or the 'requestof the operator' the fact that the barristers bill was going to be enormous and the lack of an effective safety reporting system where the last straws.
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Hopefully to pay the debts - piots are still waiting for there payouts as usual - nice tight xmas. LW is in PNG skulking under the TRansair PNG banner. mmmm!! how much is that costing the ex staff !!
Join Date: Dec 2006
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I would like to think that this whole debacle could improve the situation in GA as a whole. I doubt it though.
Transair were probably not up to scratch but then which GA operators are? There must be so many owners/managers of GA companies that should have avoided getting into aviation. You have an accident and then the ATSB says "Well here's your problem!" when everybody else is doing the same thing (or worse).
CASA is useless. Useless. It is the typical government bureacracy that is happy as hell just as long as the paperwork looks good despite it being clear as sunshine that something is wrong.
Transair were probably not up to scratch but then which GA operators are? There must be so many owners/managers of GA companies that should have avoided getting into aviation. You have an accident and then the ATSB says "Well here's your problem!" when everybody else is doing the same thing (or worse).
CASA is useless. Useless. It is the typical government bureacracy that is happy as hell just as long as the paperwork looks good despite it being clear as sunshine that something is wrong.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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ATSB Final Report due tomorrow
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CASA has already faced a "please explain" from Transport Minister Mark Vaile asking why the problems uncovered by the ATSB were not previously available from the authority's audit and monitoring process.
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How can CASA be aware of issues that were reported directly to the ATSB after the accident by confidential reports?
Can the ATSB claim that any of these issues contributed to the accident?
Surely, the ATSBs brief should be to determine just what caused the aircraft to impact terrain!
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How can CASA be aware of issues that were reported directly to the ATSB after the accident by confidential reports?
Can the ATSB claim that any of these issues contributed to the accident?
Surely, the ATSBs brief should be to determine just what caused the aircraft to impact terrain!
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From the ATSB website:
"The ATSB performs its functions in accordance with the provisions of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003 (TSI Act). Section 7 of the TSI Act indicates that the object of the Act is to improve transport safety through, among other things, independent investigations of transport accidents and incidents and the making of safety action statements and recommendations that draw on the results of those investigations."
Obviously if the ATSB believes it should say something about CASA's performance and any effect on SAFETY - then it will do so - and quite rightly
Di
"The ATSB performs its functions in accordance with the provisions of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003 (TSI Act). Section 7 of the TSI Act indicates that the object of the Act is to improve transport safety through, among other things, independent investigations of transport accidents and incidents and the making of safety action statements and recommendations that draw on the results of those investigations."
Obviously if the ATSB believes it should say something about CASA's performance and any effect on SAFETY - then it will do so - and quite rightly
Di
