One Pilot Union in Australia

[Sid Departure]

Management are seeking to return to the poisonous past, with the oldest play in the book - divide 'n conquor. Their strategy WILL work unless we all work together.

Hmmm.......I think they've already achieved this N20

1989 taught the unions that the people they really need to be afraid of is a sizeable minority of their potential members.

Oh, so very true Wiley.
Keep in mind guys, that a common pilot union is going to need a commitment from ALL pilots. Don't expect others to do everything for you. Get involved and listen to the opinions of all members.
Our colleagues across the Tasman have a common union covering all pilots with all operaters as well as the air traffic controllers. Well done guys.

[Cravenmorehead]

Great idea have been in aviation 25 years (professionally) and never been in a union but feel now we really must get ourselves a union that is unified.
Ps I will never vote for John howard again either.

[Jetsbest]

Lrt...

Re your comment "... these present organisation have been in existence for many many years and as was pointed out on an earlier thread, they have not achieved much and are often selective in which members they represent." It is merely an assertion of someone's opinion. To believe and/or prove it one would also have to also quantify what has not been achieved. Was it really achievable in the first place? Who's to say the rot wouldn't have occurred faster if these organisations had not represented us to date?

Also, re your comment "If they want/deserve my/our hard earnt cash how about some comitment on their behalves,..." it's possible that you're not familiar with at least one union I know of where, due to a blatant and calculated breach of faith by the company, the elected union representatives are being obliged to use their own annual leave and/or undertake less flying (ie earning less pay) in order to fulfil their commitments & responsibilites to the members. It's disappointing that so many kick back and say 'WIFM?' or 'what're they doing?' or 'they should just do XXXX!'. SO simple really... Pay your 1%+/_ , expect the universe from someone else's "commitment", and complain when they don't acheive what was easy. (NOT)

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Hi Jetbest,

I am happy to put my money where my mouth is, have not seen to date an organisation willing to commit to a given path.

Why would anyone in their right mind pay money to a union, just so the union can exist ?, pick the fights they are willing to fight etc etc..

If the money is not going to present benefit to me and my work mates ( even new pilots in parts of the industry i no longer work in ), i am not paying them, the money would be better spent with UNICEF.

[bushy]

Award

Where do you think the GA award came from?

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

From the same people that have not been able to make it "all binding".

[Bolty McBolt]

This is a great thread with many good points albeit slightly redundant or to late.

LRT has been castigated for daring to ask WIFM ?

If I remember back to the mid Nineties when everything in the QF group had just had its tails painted red, I was having a beer with a Pilot union rep from Eastern whom explained to me that the Eastern pilots went to AIPA to ask if they could ask to join and they were told categorically NO.
To rub salt in the wound the Flight attendant union immediately took on the Eastern CC with a net result that the pay rise to the CC meant that they were now being paid slightly more than the F/O on the Dash 8

Looks like the AIPA looked at taking on the Eastern techies and asked WIFM ?

The rest is history

This is the story as I was told it..

[Agent Mulder]

Like all rumour networks there is a lot of heresay and speculation on this forum.

Bolty , your information is not correct.

The Eastern Pilots were represented by the AFAP and were not able to be covered by AIPA at the time due to a "Gentlemens Agreement" between the two associations post the 1989 dispute.

The Eastern pilots then lodged a claim against QF seeking to gain an assurance that a previous (prior to 1992) agreement with Australian Airlines (TN) that there would be progression for Eastern pilots into TN would be honoured.

QF had been merged with TN very recently and the situation seemed to be that all bets were off regarding progression. The Eastern pilots in their wisdom and advised by the AFAP saw an opportunity. Instead of seeking progression as determined by the original deal, they sought datal seniority on the QF mainline list. This naturally raised a few objections from those on the mainline list and a subsequent court case determined the case against the Eastern pilots.

The saddest part of the whole story is that the most senior Eastern pilots would by now be B767 Captains or B744 First Officers earning substantially more than they currently do and have a defined career path. Sometimes it is better to have a little of something than a whole lot of nothing.

There are a lot of contributers to this forum and the qantas pilots forum who have very little knowledge of the events which have transpired to deliver us to where we are today. A little history will show why it is not as easy as it seems to progress. It is the challenge of the 20 - 45 year old pilot demographic to learn the lessons of the past, discard the rubbish and work together to unite the pilot profession.

This is by no means meant to denigrate those outside that demographic, however most have ridden a wave of opportunity in this industry and seek to maintain the status quo.

It is a brave new world which we live in. Opportunities exist to make substantial inroads into securing a prosperous future for pilots in this country. What it will take is a group of like minded individuals to come together from the various entities (not populist politicians) with a genuine desire to invoke change.

We can all operate to the same standard and limitations. Why should some be recompensed lesser than others for their skills?

However make no mistake. All employers in this industry will band together to fight any attempt by pilots in this country to amalgamate. It will not be easy. Nothing worth having ever is.

Now, who's up to it?

[fl610]

Ye reap what ye sow

[Bendo]

LHRT - let's look at this another way.

mate the GA pilot's award is no more or less binding than any other award out there. It is not the Union that makes it binding.

First and foremost there is a simple principle of law referred to "freedom of contract". You can enter into a contract with anyone to do anything for any price, regardess of whether a reasonable man would think the price reasonable - it must simply be "adequate" consideration.

Mr Howard is a firm believer in this principle.

Secondly, it is the pilots that make it binding by having the cajones to say "that is the minimum pay I will work for". I think many of the guys out there who get paid less than the award are simply not brave enough to risk their precious flying job to broach the topic.

Imagine how much harder it would be if there was NO award at all? No benchmark, and nobody to go in to bat for you? That is what you would face without the AFAP and without the award that they continue to maintain for their members.

Finally, it is (or rather, was) the State/Territory courts and the Federal Industrial Relations Commission that heard disputes and made orders to enforce their rulings. This was the safety net that ensured a fair result for all. There have been many changes and when you fall out of the coverage of the award and into an EA you will out of the system, never to return. You think conditions are bad now? Wait until 5 years of Johnny's Brave New World.

I have worked in a couple of industries and been a member of a number of unions. There are a lot of workers out there who are quite misguided or simply wrong in their understanding of the IR system as it was, and that is something I think the AFAP and ALL other unions need to educate people on. But being a member of the Federation is to be one of a TEAM, working together to look after each other.

When you had that interview and they asked "How do you feel about working in teams?", what was your answer?

[fl610]

Bendo

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Bendo,

No problem with working in a team, but at the moment there does not appear to be a team i see worth joining ( sorry never applied for QF/had the touchy feely with the HR people ).

Loss of income sells itself. legal representation, sells itself.

You speak as if the GA Awards is infact law in all states, please explain your understanding ?.

[Hans Solo]

LRT,

Look, no problem, the AFAP can certainly afford to not have someone like yourself as a member!
There are many out there with a much more helpful demeanour, that are willing to get up off their arse and put some effort into their union.
People like youself who bitch and moan constantly about how badly they have been treated and how little the AFAP does for them are quite simply a waste of time.
Please do not join the Feds, but just keep it to yourself, quite frankly, we are not really interested.
Best regards
Hans

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Wow Hans, thanks for that, that was a great addition to this discussion.

If asking WIFM, is unreasonable, i must have significantly higher expectations from the handing over of hard earnt cash. Good luck to those that accept little in return.

I will continue to vote with my feet, and guess what, this is the vast majority.

Why change the present system, its working fine right ? ( conditions are just on the up ), good luck.

[56P]

Those of you interested in the birth of a pilot association should (if not already) be aware of the following, compliments of Alex Paterson. This is NOT an attempt to bring up 1989 again but is merely of interest as it contains issues that may recur in present times.
--------------------------------------------------------------

A Short History of the Pilots' Federation by Captain Dick Holt

When Alex Paterson told me of his research and recording of the Pilots Dispute and asked me to provide some details of the Australian Federation of Air Pilots and its predecessor prior to 1978 (the year I retired as an airline pilot), I took the same view as Alex - a lead chapter for a book about the Pilots Dispute of 1989, covering the earlier history of their efforts in Australia to improve the profession, their place in it and overall their safety and that of their passengers, would be an appropriate contribution. I then thought some more, reviewed the history and analysis of the dispute as provided by Alex Paterson and saw beyond doubt that the reason such a dispute could occur laid itself bare in the earlier history of the Federation.
Why did the dispute occur? It occurred because Airline Managements had never really changed their original thinking that pilots were employees who should do what they were told, cease being prima donnas as to the value of their profession and their place in it, and stop setting a bad example to the industry at large.
In the period 1945 to 1989 (in my case to 1978), pilots, through their representatives, contested over very long periods the major elements of their employment which by its very nature controlled their daily lives and that of their families.
During this period there were long agonies of negotiation, threats and at times despair, but in the end a result was achieved of which virtually all pilots were justly proud. The situation now is that all of those agreed improvements have disappeared overnight and a couple of decades of further struggle lie ahead to set it all in place again. Looking back now that 30 years of effort on our part would not in retrospect trouble me except that I see all of our earlier concerns and fears proven by the action of employers in 1989-90. At long last they succeeded in placing their pilots where they had always believed and, given an opportunity, intended they should be. During that 30 years we were in retrospect deadly accurate in those concerns and I feel this written record from Alex Paterson now has an importance within the current experience proving everything we ever said in earlier days about the necessity for
• ever increasing vigilance
• awareness of changing safety standards
• the need for involvement in aircraft accident investigation
• the need for regulatory standards in National & International aviation
• the need for medical limitations
• the need to recognise the value of a pilot's licence to fly in all categories
• the need for insurance of those licences
• the need for remuneration at world standard levels
• the need to have input into scheduling and rostering
• the need for a seniority system
• the need to have management a little frightened of our capacity to raise a fuss if we were not listened to with some respect
• the need for a sophisticated Contract of Employment
• the need for grievance machinery to settle disputes
Australia is yet to have its first major jet accident but when it does, you will see virtually all of these matters thoroughly ventilated as grieving relatives demand explanations and perhaps retribution for the loss of family.
It is ever thus - progress in aviation has always been through blood - kill people and you can get results - what a shocking specification; unhappily it is totally true - but now to the historical. The first joining together of pilot opinion and effort occurred in the five years following the end of World War 11 - that is from 1945 to 1950. The Australian Air Pilots Association was formed and a small but growing band of dedicated thinkers sought the support of their fellows to enable an executive group to speak with one voice. Their effort was assisted by the effect on pilots of some of the sub-standard conditions under which they lived and worked, created by:
• Inefficient regulations
• Harsh work patterns
• Poor remuneration
• Bad overnight accommodation
• Lack of a visible system of promotion
• No visible career path
and many other disadvantages.
The war had shown that the DCIII/Dakota could do virtually anything in what I will call the lower altitudes and pilots who had flown them and others who were finally converted agreed. Regulations however did not recognise that limitations in many areas of operation were badly needed.
As regular schedules on an all weather basis became the norm, and as the search for profit became part of the system of assessing aircraft, a whole new series of deficiencies became visible. In this climate airline management wished to expand and take full advantage of the post war scene. The aircraft were available (i. e. DCIIIs and the new 'giant' DCIVs) and there were plenty of pilots available.
Accordingly, routes were expanded, more pilots employed and the industry began a consistent growth, albeit without much regulation.
The proposition that schedules should be maintained to the maximum possible degree existed and was reasonable, and pilots along with other sections of the industry did their best, but by 1951/52 there were so many unacceptable elements that pilots began to look to banding together more firmly and speaking with one much louder voice.
This was attempted through the loosely organised Australian Air Pilots Association (AAPA), a body registered with the Arbitration Court and to some degree disregarded by the employers - ANA, TAA, ANSETT, QANTAS et al. Every matter of significance relative to employment had to be approached through the Court system of applications or demands by AAPA or employees. Eventually these were processed and ruled on by the Arbitration Court.
The Justices concerned had little or no knowledge or understanding of the airline industry from a professional point of view and were not really concerned to learn. Little or no progress was made and a hardening of pilot opinion and support for their Association slowly grew.
• Pilots were poorly paid - next to the lowest in the world.
• Their long away from home trips living often in the poorest of accommodation irked them greatly.
• They had no say whatsoever in the form of rostering for duty and were virtually on call for 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
• There was no such thing as superannuation.
• There was no real entitlement to sick leave.
• There was however an ethic regarding the quality and dedication of pilot service to passengers and to the company which employed them which was heavily exploited by management.
• There were also quite a few accidents resulting in (for those times) substantial loss of life. The common practice of assuming pilot error as the primary cause was not acceptable to pilots at large or to their Association.
Well, there it was - no great progress achieved or in sight, a very determined set of employers whose expertise in the Arbitration Court gave them a considerable advantage and the AAPA obviously not so far fulfilling its charter.
A hardening took place and without even actually laying down an overall plan, a much more determined group of executives of the Association began to work to bring about change over time.
The writer became involved in 1954 and with the other elected Branch and Federation officers worked assiduously to improve the situation.
A few words about myself: Prior to joining the RAAF at the beginning of the war, my work experience was one year in a gold mine at Cracow Queensland and three years in the Lands and Survey Department of the Queensland Public Service.
My father as a miner was a member of the AWU and growing up I heard of many things wrong in the mining industry which the AWU was working to repair. Certainly I absorbed the Management versus Employees philosophy and understood trade unionism which as it happened I had read quite a lot about. However, 51/2 years in the Air Force dropped all of that well behind and virtually out of my consciousness.
When the war finished, I wanted nothing more than to be left alone to live life with my dear wife and our increasing family. It was not to be. I had by now developed a considered understanding of the problems we faced as a toothless Association. I hated the accommodation standards applied to pilots when away from home. I despised the amount of payment received for our very responsible work and I clearly saw that pilots had to take a huge interest in airline safety and also that they must work closely with all authorities and indeed with management to eliminate unacceptable risks and improve their everyday welfare.
So I became, I suppose, a militant and to a degree visibly so. I found others who had similar views and we began to work to further strengthen the capacity of the AAPA.
This was probably our worst period and almost totally frustrating in that it took so long to mount a case in the Arbitration system of the day which inevitably failed to achieve anything worthwhile, though at very considerable cost.
The AAPA had by then developed an organisation which could rapidly identify and assess a need and a means of satisfying that need, but a considerable built-in handicap was the reluctance of pilots to engage in any form of direct action because in the case of pilots refusing their services, airline operation stopped in its tracks, thereby badly affecting passengers and other airline staff.
In addition, management had gained the support of some Flight Management pilots who considered themselves above the level of those who in fact had to stop work and this group often quietly campaigned in support of Management opinion.
The obvious answer was for the AAPA to gather everyone's confidence by proceeding to build a reliable association of Pilot Executives; to employ reliable and industrially competent people to run Association affairs on a day by day basis and to become ever more competent in the patient negotiations with management representatives, which always ensued following any attempt to improve our situation.
If this was done, an occasional flash of temper, threat to take industrial action etc, would be used to speed up the process a little and pilots gave qualified support.
Nevertheless through the fifties (1951-1960) it was very hard going, and after several abortive attempts to go through the Arbitration Court procedures, a strong approach to all pilots by the AAPA Executives of the day - mid 1959 - gained approval for a completely different approach -
• 1. That was to get out of the Arbitration System altogether.
• 2. To kill the AAPA by resignation of all members.
• 3. To immediately form a new organisation - The Australian Federation of Air Pilots.
• 4. To remain unaffiliated with any other union or group.
All of this was achieved in the second half of 1959.
The writer became the first elected President of the now Union/Association/Federation, call it as you will, and we began the long trek to wherever it was we would end up.
A reasoned but careful approach for recognition went to Airline Management groups and it began to be accepted that the now Federation really did represent pilots. We were careful to openly display our rules, our approach to membership fees high enough to ensure a working capacity, and our determination to seek industrial airline agreements from each airline, negotiated separately to ensure their old method of ganging up against us, could not occur.
By 1961 we had the first of these industrial agreements with each company and although the going was very tough, we noted a sneaking respect for our attitude and willingness to stick to those agreements. From here on, it was build, build, build to provide for -
• improved salaries
• a superannuation scheme
• an internal Loss of Licence Insurance Fund
• an Internal Provident Fund
• a seniority system
• representation on all accident and incident investigations
• our growing awareness of the value of international membership of the International Federation of Airline Pilot Associations (IFALPA)
• the introduction of the jet age to Australian domestic routes
• an atmosphere which was conducive to settling problems rather than exacerbating them.
The centre piece became an approach in 1964 to change the entire face of airline pilot working agreements in Australia by the introduction of many of the conditions we had noted pilots around the world enjoying, modified to the Australian scene.
We eventually interested Airline Management in looking into this approach and a long and careful study was made which gave both parties the incentive to proceed.
Final agreement was not reached until July 1966 and then only after prolonged negotiation - at times under acceptable installed Government Chairmanship - per the "Bland Procedures Agreement" and the "Tribunal" (Prof J Isaac). Agreement was eventually reached but only after a full scale threat of an indefinite stoppage had been voted for by the membership unless the now virtually agreed items were confirmed by Airline Managements.
But reached it was and from 12 July 1966 Australian Aviation conditions of employment for pilots changed their lives. Some rancour still existed at management level that pilots were now so well treated, but a form of respectful alliance had come to exist between officers of the Pilots Federation and the career Industrial Officers employed by the Airlines. One exception to the July 1966 Agreement was of course the Qantas pilot group and for them began a year of agony to achieve conditions of employment similar to their fellow members of the Federation flying the domestic airline routes.
Failure to progress in negotiations and management attitude stemming from the very top finally drove the Qantas pilots to a prolonged strike from early December 1966 which served to set a climate for further negotiations and in mid 1967 the Federation successfully concluded an employment agreement with Qantas acceptable to both pilots and management. The Pilots Federation had now achieved its major platform and would go on improving each segment of that platform of operating agreements to include general aviation and every aspect of flying in Australia.
Strong internal discipline within the Pilots Federation and its permanent staff meant we were able to adhere rigidly to our side of the new style of agreement. I retired in 1978 by which time I had been elected President of the Federation some seven times, the last time for the 1977-78 year and had seen all of my hopes and ambitions for the Australian Federation of Air Pilots achieved.
I had however made a fundamental error and that was to believe that we had eliminated and buried the deep management resentment of pilots which had been such a bane in earlier years. I believed that management had as a commercial decision arrived at the conclusion if you can't "beat 'em, join 'em", and with this philosophy found that living and working with us was not so bad. I echoed this in my valedictory address to pilots in September 1978, printed in the autumn edition of the Pilots Journal.
Salient to my view was the belief that we had given something to aviation in Australia. We had created a profession, our ethics were above reproach, our safety record from the introduction of jets to airline operation in the 1960s was second to none in the world, and so recognised. We had a respected place in the highest level in the world aviation scene though the International Federation of Airline Pilot Associations (IFALPA). We were a sophisticated part of Accident and Incident investigation and at every level of flight management and training we had a voice in our respective employer companies.
These things did not just happen - they flowed through arduous patient detailed work, determination, and very considerable sacrifice for no financial reward of any kind by a large band of elected pilot representatives at every level of the Federation over a long period of time. All these improved conditions, according to me, were set in stone and as I retired in 1978 I saw pilots having only to remain alert, not be complacent and their well organised professional way of life would continue.
Silly me, the dragon merely slept! Given his opportunity he would blast out of his bunker and 'fix' the pilots who obviously he and his kind had come to hate. He would prepare and organise and when the time came he would be completely ruthless and back those pilots would go to the supplicant status he and his management group believed pilots should have. Just as I never envisaged such an action by Management, neither did the officers of the Federation who succeeded my stewardship from 1978 onwards.
They had many new elements to cope with but none which threatened to change their way of life and so come 1989 they were suckers for the big blast and the charge which had been built up for the specific purpose.
These writings are then obviously not a criticism of the Federation's Executive members who were in office when the 1989 dispute began. It would not have mattered who they were, particularly in the initial stages. None would have had the prescience to know that the Prime Minister and the Government would hook in behind the Dragon of standover Airline Management to give it the temporary surge of strength necessary to overcome the pilot group.
None of them would ever have believed the Immigration laws would be fiddled to allow mercenaries into Australian skies.
None of them would ever have believed the entire Australian Union movement would stand aside and watch it happen.
If they could have looked ahead, none of them would have believed that the resultant events occurring as they did at every level of flying operations for the domestic airlines could happen without major jet accidents resulting from the loosening of standards in general flying safety following the introduction of mercenary pilots from overseas.
None of them would have believed that a year or so on they would be permanently outcast and a new group whom I need not, nor do I wish to recognise, would be flying Australia's domestic routes on contracts which debunked almost every pilot employed condition and privilege earned over some forty years of patient effort.
None of them would have believed as I certainly did not that there would need to be a decade or so of a repeat of history to bring the Australian pilot situation back to acceptable standards. I say a decade or two because the smell has to go away and small beginnings have to be built upon to again approach an acceptable position.
Some aspects of the current situation do help. How fortunate the Qantas pilots formed their own association when they did and thus remained outside the big gun barrage mounted by the dragon and his helper.
How fortunate that the blood lost by Australian Airlines over the dispute helped to force that Airline's amalgamation by sale to Qantas where over time the ugliness created domestically will be eaten away by the cautious approach the AIPA will make to this affair. Putting aside the destruction of the pilot ranks, I guess we can be pleased that the justice of events 'so shall ye reap' etc caught up with and destroyed the dragon and most of his associates. Their dream of domination of the airline industry is in other hands and they are mostly gone - just as are almost all of the pilots they so grievously damaged.
What remains to be said - two things I believe.
I wish to see the anatomy of the dispute fully revealed.
I wish to see the public marking of those responsible for turning an individual matter into a way of destruction not only of the airlines themselves but of a very large segment of the Tourist Industry and allied services.
I see this as possibly being done through blood - just as most progress in aviation in this and other countries has been achieved.
Enough of us should remember the situation which came to exist in 1989 to the degree that should however unfortunately a jet aircraft accident occur to an Australian aircraft, the subsequent furore, grief and determination be used to call up specific terms of reference to an inquiry to evidence the real reason for the deterioration in airline safety in Australia which will almost surely be the reason for such an accident to happen.
Remember Mount Erebus - it is possible to go back and find the real reasons an aircraft accident happens even where those reasons stem from attitudes alone.
I have the deep hope there will be no such accident but if it occurs, pilots should be loud and long in their cry for a full Royal Commission with a long term of reference which says:
• When did the safety of airline operations in Australia commence to deteriorate and why did it occur?
• Who was responsible and to what degree?
• Was culpability a factor?
• What action should be taken against any party found to be responsible?
and so on.
The other point I would like to make is that a reader should not make the assumption that the early and tough years of creating the Pilots Federation and its subsequent success were the work of any one man or even of many. The excellent result was the work of a long list of dedicated pilots who sank their own differences to elect and direct executive staff to create and execute policies, ably helped by permanent staff officers who were highly skilled professionals in the field of industrial relations.
My contribution to this book about the pilot efforts in earlier years is limited to non- specifics to enable a balanced view to show, but the reason for its writing is the massive disaster and destruction of Australian pilots' way of life which occurred from 1989 onwards.
I would not like it to be forgotten that a large number of dedicated Executive Officers at all levels, professional and general staff, built a magnificent edifice. Its destruction was an act of violence conceived and executed by Management, its bedfellows and minions. It was not the fault of previous or then current Executive Officers and staff.
Those with whom I worked, far too numerous to mention here, by the similarity of their thinking and the loyalty they engendered, carefully led the Association and Federation to achieve greater things.
In conclusion I repeat that I was asked by Alex Patterson to provide a picture of the Federation and its activities in the industrial area up to 1978 when I retired and without going into too much detail I have tried to do just that, adding perhaps a few thoughts of my own. I wish the current Executive officers and professional staff every success along the road ahead. It is a hard one but I do observe the flickering of the lamp of progress.
Don't let it go out.
R. T. HOLT
19 May 1994

[Bolty McBolt]

Agent Mulder

Thanks for the retort.
Goes to show there is always 2 sides every story.

I am fairly sure the "gentlemans agreement" you speak of between the AIPA and the AFAP is why the Eastern pilot I mentioned previously was hot under the collar.
He suspected a conspiricy at the time. But that would never happen in QF .

Imagine where AIPA would be now if they had taken on the Eastern , Sun State, regoinal, Impulse pilots etc etc under its wing all those years ago??

[Agent Mulder]

Bolty,

I could not agree with you more strongly.

However it was legally difficult at the time as one Terry O'Connell will attest (having already spent 28 days in the witness box during the section 118 hearings).

The AFAP were fighting for survival and had the threat of writs over their heads until quite recently. This had the potential to bankrupt them and the officers of the Federation during the 89 dispute. (AIPA COM note the significance especially with regards duties and disclosures and Indemnity Insurance as I believe there may currently be an issue at foot).

Now, if AIPA and the AFAP had buried the hatchet after 89 and the amalgamation dispute things would be considerably different. However, both organisations were controlled by the generation that had witnessed both events and through their lack of ability to move on, they couldn't progress the issue without falling back into old positions.

That is why I say that it is the 20 - 45 year old demographic that will drive the profession into the future.

They know what is acceptable by modern work practice standards and do not hold on to antiquated warfies rules. They know the meaning of "a fair days work for a fair days pay" unlike many of the institutionalised “baby boomers”.

My own personal observations are that the baby boomers are possibly the most pampered generation to walk this earth. Now, to top it off, they have been granted untaxed lump sum super. The rest of us of course will be slugged in the future to cover the welfare payments when the less intelligent blow their money on a new get rich quick scheme.

It is up to the “younger generation” to make the move forward. The AFAP has recently replaced the old guard with new blood. Unfortunately AIPA is still controlled by boomers at the end of their careers with superannuation protection in mind.

When the younger generation wake up to the fact they have been spived by self promoters for personal gain, things may progress. Until then, we will suffer the consequences.

I hope we unknowingly share a beer one day and remark in passing how good life is. Until that day, question the motives and remember “the truth is out there”.

[Lucius Vorenus]

Mulder,

I like your reasoning

That is why I say that it is the 20 - 45 year old demographic that will drive the profession into the future.

It must be that demographic that drives change...but will it? They will certainly have to wear the future they are constructing through their mistaken trust.

They know what is acceptable by modern work practice standards and do not hold on to antiquated warfies rules. They know the meaning of "a fair days work for a fair days pay" unlike many of the institutionalised “baby boomers”.

Do they? Or are they snouts in the trough just like their older pals? Look at the general conservatism of S/Os on the '400. They won't accept any change thank you.

When the younger generation wake up to the fact they have been spived by self promoters for personal gain, things may progress. Until then, we will suffer the consequences.

The only way for the younger generation to realise might be, unfortunately, the hard way...anything you or I might say to them will be construed as politically slanted.."is it coz I is black?"

Bolty,

Imagine where AIPA would be now if they had taken on the Eastern , Sun State, regoinal, Impulse pilots etc etc under its wing all those years ago??

What if we had won the lottery...equally likely I think.


I'll have a beer with both of you some day.

[Nemisis]

I have just heard a 'rumor' that is of concern. In that it seems there is an association that has a $4.6 million actionable lawsuit still hanging over its head from an event at the end of the eighties. If that is the case how could it represent with any autonomy?

[Agent Mulder]

To the best of my knowledge the damages against the AFAP and the members of the Executive expired either last year or the year before.

A call to the AFAP would confirm or deny this information.