It's Official - Virgin Blue to Get Jungle Jets
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I reckon if Ozjet had gone this way, or any other start-up, they might have had a chance.
Hey, Chris, I have some land I want to sell you...
By the way Ozjet still operate charter flights. They just missed the mark on RPT.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
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Wirgin - Underbelly lockers are the go, but they are skinny. 3 bags endways across the base and not a lot of vertical room. Far more adequate than a bizjet on steroids like the CRJs but baggage on a 75-100% load factor flight would blow any thoughts of cargo out of the water. You could not guarantee uplift to regular "fresh" market shippers.
It looks like a very handy performer with great range though.
Best all
EWL
It looks like a very handy performer with great range though.
Best all
EWL
Chris,
unfortunately the basic reason Ozjet did not continue in RPT was a lack of bums on seats. Weather it was a flash new E190 burning 1600kg/hr or a guzzler such the B737-200 would have made little difference.
If you do a net Present value (NPV) calculation on the fuel burn DIFFERENTIAL between the two vs the huge lease cost differential of owning an old airframe or paying say $400K USD (my guess) per month on a flash one........ The clapped out BAE146/B737/727 etc will always winout with the bean counters and is the reason why these types will fly our skies for years to come.
unfortunately the basic reason Ozjet did not continue in RPT was a lack of bums on seats. Weather it was a flash new E190 burning 1600kg/hr or a guzzler such the B737-200 would have made little difference.
If you do a net Present value (NPV) calculation on the fuel burn DIFFERENTIAL between the two vs the huge lease cost differential of owning an old airframe or paying say $400K USD (my guess) per month on a flash one........ The clapped out BAE146/B737/727 etc will always winout with the bean counters and is the reason why these types will fly our skies for years to come.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Illusion,
Your points are well taken and quite respected. This is one of those half-full/half-empty arguments. Bombardier has been in World Trade Court with the Brazilian maker because they believe that the ERJs were being offered at prices so low that they were being subsidised by WTO loans.
Bombardier has since laid off workers, Embraer has full books...
Whether you consider the cost of a lease payment or the labour costs of overhaul and extra aircraft required for AOG situations ,(when stuck with old tired airframes), the balance sheet could show convincing arguments for leasing new equipment.
Again, its not a matter of saying, "I told you so". I wish that Ozjet had made it, that I was proved wrong and that they were recycling more aircraft and employing more LAMEs/AMEs.
The reason they were not getting full planes probably had something to do with the perception of the operation to begin with...starting with the lipstick on a pig.
I would never consider working for an employer that operated the 737-200 as it's main stable. The operating costs are prohibitive; Southwest proved it by grounding the ones they already owned and were flying full on their established routes.
Your points are well taken and quite respected. This is one of those half-full/half-empty arguments. Bombardier has been in World Trade Court with the Brazilian maker because they believe that the ERJs were being offered at prices so low that they were being subsidised by WTO loans.
Bombardier has since laid off workers, Embraer has full books...
Whether you consider the cost of a lease payment or the labour costs of overhaul and extra aircraft required for AOG situations ,(when stuck with old tired airframes), the balance sheet could show convincing arguments for leasing new equipment.
Again, its not a matter of saying, "I told you so". I wish that Ozjet had made it, that I was proved wrong and that they were recycling more aircraft and employing more LAMEs/AMEs.
The reason they were not getting full planes probably had something to do with the perception of the operation to begin with...starting with the lipstick on a pig.
I would never consider working for an employer that operated the 737-200 as it's main stable. The operating costs are prohibitive; Southwest proved it by grounding the ones they already owned and were flying full on their established routes.
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 15th Nov 2006 at 20:46.
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Beancounters don't take into account AOG and loss of goodwill due to unreliable A/C, sure it's an unknown qty, but you'd think that they would at least give it some small consideration? Well they don't, and that was painfully obvious to me in my previous life ( no, I'm not getting bitter and twisted Clarry )
Looking at the Embraer website it certainly looks like a capable piece of kit.
A couple of things stood out : Cant access the performance ( not available ) and whilst they say it has superior hot'n'high performance, it requires just over 2100m, ISA, to take off at MTOW......this may ( or may not ) make it interesting out of a 1700m r/w @ ISA + 20.( mind you, it won't be an orphan )
As usual, with any A/C, it will be interesting to see how it goes in our unique operating conditions. ( for the uneducated ; short, hot, high r/w and long sectors )
)Looking at the Embraer website it certainly looks like a capable piece of kit.
A couple of things stood out : Cant access the performance ( not available ) and whilst they say it has superior hot'n'high performance, it requires just over 2100m, ISA, to take off at MTOW......this may ( or may not ) make it interesting out of a 1700m r/w @ ISA + 20.( mind you, it won't be an orphan )
As usual, with any A/C, it will be interesting to see how it goes in our unique operating conditions. ( for the uneducated ; short, hot, high r/w and long sectors )
Join Date: Oct 2003
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So if Ozjet were paying expensive monthly lease payments on brand new jets versus operating their fully owned (with spares) 737-200 then "you reckon" they would have had a chance.
Hey, Chris, I have some land I want to sell you...
By the way Ozjet still operate charter flights. They just missed the mark on RPT.
Hey, Chris, I have some land I want to sell you...
By the way Ozjet still operate charter flights. They just missed the mark on RPT.
Icarus 2001, I see they're having interviews too! Should I jump on that opportunity...like your land deal? I think the long term prospects look about the same
SIMPLIFIED TAKEOFF ANALYSIS TABLES
EMBRAER 170 – CF34-8E5 – T/O-1 MODE – JAA CERTIFICATION
FLAPS 2 – V2/Vs =1.20 – DRY RUNWAY – ANTI ICE OFF – A/C ON
Temp 1600m 1800m 2000m 2200m 2400m 2600m 2800m
35 31336 R 33137 R 34820 R 36444 R 37200 S 37200 S 37200 S
SIMPLIFIED TAKEOFF ANALYSIS TABLES
EMBRAER 170 – CF34-8E5 – T/O-1 MODE – JAA CERTIFICATION
FLAPS 4 – V2/Vs =1.19 – DRY RUNWAY – ANTI ICE OFF – A/C ON
Temp 1600m 1800m 2000m 2200m 2400m 2600m 2800m
35 34502 R 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W
Limitation codes:
• R – Runway Length;
• W – WAT (Climb);
• B – Brake;
• S – Structural;
• A – Approach Climb.
EMBRAER 170 – CF34-8E5 – T/O-1 MODE – JAA CERTIFICATION
FLAPS 2 – V2/Vs =1.20 – DRY RUNWAY – ANTI ICE OFF – A/C ON
Temp 1600m 1800m 2000m 2200m 2400m 2600m 2800m
35 31336 R 33137 R 34820 R 36444 R 37200 S 37200 S 37200 S
SIMPLIFIED TAKEOFF ANALYSIS TABLES
EMBRAER 170 – CF34-8E5 – T/O-1 MODE – JAA CERTIFICATION
FLAPS 4 – V2/Vs =1.19 – DRY RUNWAY – ANTI ICE OFF – A/C ON
Temp 1600m 1800m 2000m 2200m 2400m 2600m 2800m
35 34502 R 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W
Limitation codes:
• R – Runway Length;
• W – WAT (Climb);
• B – Brake;
• S – Structural;
• A – Approach Climb.
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Employment???
So, any DJ crew say when DJ will start hiring for these new machines, and how they will be hiring (I.e: the normal way on their website). All is very quiet..... I wonder if there will be a shortage of boys/girls with jet experience to get on this machine, and whether they will be taking from GA? 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Pay is pretty dismal. Under our new payscales for newly recruited fo (B scale now been introduced) On the Emb170/190 F/o's will earn $15,00 more than our cabin supervisors. They will have trouble getting pilots from within, as its not much of a pay rise for 737 f/os to captain on these new buses. We need 220 pilots by 2008. They'll need experienced jet drivers, as the 170/190 will be used on routes into BNA,HVB,PPN all nice little CTAFs. I can see the same thing happeneing here as with the CRJ programe, employing contract dudes on big bucks with type experience.
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Could anyone of the Virgin guys in the know PM me what the age cutoff is to apply for the new Embraer jet operation.I am in the sandpit at the moment and would like to try to get to get home for personal family reasons.I know they are after a certain type of guy.I would just like to get a heads up.
Rgds
GJ
Rgds
GJ
Join Date: Oct 2001
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With all this jungle jet talk, does anyone know for certain what the first schedule will look like? As I understand it, flying will start Oct 07 with 3x EMB170s with the 190s rolling in from early 08.
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Anyone know the number of VB F/os who bidded across for this new type? I heard they were after a 12% productivity increase on that type too? Offers closed 2 weeks ago I hear and that would then decide where new starts go & F/Os time to command on 737 fleet... mmm very interesting
I managed to have a "Capt Cook" at the beast while it was in Oz and was very impressed. Good choice VB
and good luck
I managed to have a "Capt Cook" at the beast while it was in Oz and was very impressed. Good choice VB
and good luck
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Chocks Away,
Which refueller did you get your information from, or did you just make up this rubbish.
I am an FO with VB, and there is NO LIST, NO OFFERS and NOTHING has opened or closed as far as bidding onto the EMB. We are still negotiating the EBA, and nothing will happen until then.
Your post is total rubbish, and you should remove it.
Which refueller did you get your information from, or did you just make up this rubbish.
I am an FO with VB, and there is NO LIST, NO OFFERS and NOTHING has opened or closed as far as bidding onto the EMB. We are still negotiating the EBA, and nothing will happen until then.
Your post is total rubbish, and you should remove it.
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Chris, not ALL American airlines have parked their 737-200s. I know Alaska Airlines still operate theirs out of ANC.
I don't think it was entirely the fault of the a/c. Either way, it is a shame OzJet didn't last in RPT. A good mate found himself unemployed.
I don't think it was entirely the fault of the a/c. Either way, it is a shame OzJet didn't last in RPT. A good mate found himself unemployed.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Near Miss,
Your observations about Alaska Airlines are correct. The 737-200s that you saw in Anchorage had the gravel kits added. One prominent feature of this kit is to prevent FOD at the engine inlets by a discharge of bleed air forward of the intake. I don't think it would be nearly as effective on a high bypass engine.
I am very sorry that your friend lost his job. It's a shame that many people did and that they thought that this would be a ray of light in the depressed employment markets that we recently endured.
This is one of those cases where we all wish that we were wrong and that the operation was succesful.
Your observations about Alaska Airlines are correct. The 737-200s that you saw in Anchorage had the gravel kits added. One prominent feature of this kit is to prevent FOD at the engine inlets by a discharge of bleed air forward of the intake. I don't think it would be nearly as effective on a high bypass engine.
I am very sorry that your friend lost his job. It's a shame that many people did and that they thought that this would be a ray of light in the depressed employment markets that we recently endured.
This is one of those cases where we all wish that we were wrong and that the operation was succesful.
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 13th Dec 2006 at 02:30.
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Chris, I didn't notice the gravel kit on the 200. Then again it was snowing and I wasn't getting out of a 23C cockpit to have a closer look.
My mate has now left Oz (like many of us) and scored a better job.
It is great that VB is expanding and getting new toys for us to play with, it is just a shame in Oz that many companies are expecting more from all their staff (pilots, cabin crew, engineers, gate staff, etc) for less reward (pay, time off, staff travel).
All the best for those going to be operating the new machine. Hopefully the pax will like them as much as the pilots. Although they still call anything smaller than a 747 a "little plane". It almost made me sick when I once heard an “informed” father refer to a 737 as “little” to his son. I was flying a C310 at the time.
My mate has now left Oz (like many of us) and scored a better job.
It is great that VB is expanding and getting new toys for us to play with, it is just a shame in Oz that many companies are expecting more from all their staff (pilots, cabin crew, engineers, gate staff, etc) for less reward (pay, time off, staff travel).
All the best for those going to be operating the new machine. Hopefully the pax will like them as much as the pilots. Although they still call anything smaller than a 747 a "little plane". It almost made me sick when I once heard an “informed” father refer to a 737 as “little” to his son. I was flying a C310 at the time.
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As Dubya says, we're still negotiating our eba. Until thats sorted out, nothing is going to happen with the Emb, which puts the ball in our court, I hope. Only management positions being advertised internally. Bases, routes etc, very little is known. All I can say, is stay tuned, and don't sell yourself short for the sake of getting on a jet.