737- flaps for takeoff
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737- flaps for takeoff
Just curious as to the flap setting required for takeoff and the effect of having 0 flap set for takeoff on a 737.
I was on a flight 2 weeks ago and once lined up and ready to go, power was applied, then as soon as we started rolling, power back to idle and brakes applied... then i noticed the flaps being lowered...
seconds later we were on our way...
would there have been a warning sounded in the cockpit or might have the captain been testing the FO?? should this sort of event be notified to the airline? the only reason it had me concerned was that i've heard of planes not getting airborne because of the failure to set take off flaps..
I would have thought that flaps/slats should have been set prior to entering the runway..
I was on a flight 2 weeks ago and once lined up and ready to go, power was applied, then as soon as we started rolling, power back to idle and brakes applied... then i noticed the flaps being lowered...
seconds later we were on our way...
would there have been a warning sounded in the cockpit or might have the captain been testing the FO?? should this sort of event be notified to the airline? the only reason it had me concerned was that i've heard of planes not getting airborne because of the failure to set take off flaps..
I would have thought that flaps/slats should have been set prior to entering the runway..
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That's a pretty darned serious error by the sounds of things. Would this event be revealed on the QAR? The recently revised Boeing 737 before take off checklist has "Flaps" as the only item. With no other trigger item before the word "Flaps" it showws perhaps a flaw in the design of the checklist?
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A37575
Totally agree.
That's a pretty darned serious error by the sounds of things. Would this event be revealed on the QAR? The recently revised Boeing 737 before take off checklist has "Flaps" as the only item. With no other trigger item before the word "Flaps" it showws perhaps a flaw in the design of the checklist?
Totally agree.
I would think the crew would have been very self critical of the fact that they missed setting the flap. Not having the flaps set for takeoff could lead to a very bad situation. However because of this, Boeing have a very affective take off warning system, that has been described above, and that worked as it should and the crew reacted correctly to it. Why they missed setting the flaps only they will know. Distractions happen for a multitude of reasons. But in the end a safe takeoff was achieved. Lets not bag them too much.
propelled,
What you witnessed was a very serious safety incident. You must report it.
Get in touch with one of the CASA Air Transport Operations field offices and go from there. Contact details: http://www.casa.gov.au/corporat/orgchart/atg_field.htm
What you witnessed was a very serious safety incident. You must report it.
Get in touch with one of the CASA Air Transport Operations field offices and go from there. Contact details: http://www.casa.gov.au/corporat/orgchart/atg_field.htm
aircraft and propelled sound like the same person to me! 
Oh dear, the lunatics have taken over the asylum!
What exactly has been witnessed here? Would someone sitting in the passenger cabin have all the facts, or just mere speculation.
What you witnessed was a very serious safety incident. You must report it.
What exactly has been witnessed here? Would someone sitting in the passenger cabin have all the facts, or just mere speculation.
Capt Fathom:
That is for the investigation to establish.
DirectAnywhere:
That "professionalism" would extend to encouraging a member of the public to report such a serious safety incident wouldn't it?
Why would it come up on the QAR? I understand that the various recording devices on the aircraft would have recorded the raw data, but would the existence (alone) of that data be enough to ring alarm bells?
If I had been that passenger I would not be able to sleep at night until I had reported it.
What exactly has been witnessed here? Would someone sitting in the passenger cabin have all the facts, or just mere speculation.
DirectAnywhere:
Aircraft, any RPT crew would have self reported for one of two reasons:
1. Professionalism, or
2. they would know it would come up on the QAR anyway.
1. Professionalism, or
2. they would know it would come up on the QAR anyway.
Why would it come up on the QAR? I understand that the various recording devices on the aircraft would have recorded the raw data, but would the existence (alone) of that data be enough to ring alarm bells?
If I had been that passenger I would not be able to sleep at night until I had reported it.
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i would say 90% of qfs 737 (400 or 800) are flap 30 landings. recommended to use flap 40 when less than 2500m (800) or less than 2000m (400).
Autoland is at either Flap 30 or 40. (i am pretty sure. on 737 we never do them anyway)
Autoland is at either Flap 30 or 40. (i am pretty sure. on 737 we never do them anyway)
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aircraft and propelled sound like the same person to me!
What exactly has been witnessed here? Would someone sitting in the passenger cabin have all the facts, or just mere speculation
If I had been that passenger I would not be able to sleep at night until I had reported it.
All i intended to do was share an event which I thought may be of interest to people on here...
I have no interest in reporting it to CASA, however I felt the airline might want to know about it just so they are aware that it happened and maybe some good might come out of it- checklists etc, so that its less likely to happen again..
Could you guys fill me in on what 'QAR' means please?
Oh, and 'Victor India', thanks for the explanation on the audible Take Off Configuration Warning in the 737s... that explains it for me..
cheers
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QAR = Quick Access Recorder
As you probably know there are 2 recorders in the tail. One a voice recorder the other a flight data recorder.
Originally they were designed to gather voice and data from the flight so that if an accident rendered the crew incapable of telling the story then the investigators could work out what happened from the info on the recorders.
In the new age of aviation these recorders (the data recorder mostly) are used for Flight Operations Quality Assurance by many airlines. As a result they are now fitted with removable disks that maint personnel can quickly access, collect and send to the relevent department before putting fresh disks in for subsequent flights.
How this data is used varies from airline to airline. At my current airline there are some 96 (I think) trigger events that will raise a red flag for investigation. Events such as flaps extended above placard speed, unstable approaches etc.
The data is sent to the relevant department on disks at the end of each day (depending on where the fleet is). Only the trigger events are looked at as it would take a large airline a huge team, and ammount of money, to wade through all data on all flights.
The question of this event trigering a red flag would depend on the airlines settings. It would be captured but not necessarily trigger a red flag.
The jury is out on the recorders use in this fashion. Certainly for a reponsible airline with a good safety culture it can be a useful tool. For an airline keen to punish offenders (such as mine - and I mean US $ fines for errors) it has the opposite effect and just results in crews flying to avoid triggers.
Hope that helps.
(edited for inclusion of reasoning for use of "Quick Access" term)
As you probably know there are 2 recorders in the tail. One a voice recorder the other a flight data recorder.
Originally they were designed to gather voice and data from the flight so that if an accident rendered the crew incapable of telling the story then the investigators could work out what happened from the info on the recorders.
In the new age of aviation these recorders (the data recorder mostly) are used for Flight Operations Quality Assurance by many airlines. As a result they are now fitted with removable disks that maint personnel can quickly access, collect and send to the relevent department before putting fresh disks in for subsequent flights.
How this data is used varies from airline to airline. At my current airline there are some 96 (I think) trigger events that will raise a red flag for investigation. Events such as flaps extended above placard speed, unstable approaches etc.
The data is sent to the relevant department on disks at the end of each day (depending on where the fleet is). Only the trigger events are looked at as it would take a large airline a huge team, and ammount of money, to wade through all data on all flights.
The question of this event trigering a red flag would depend on the airlines settings. It would be captured but not necessarily trigger a red flag.
The jury is out on the recorders use in this fashion. Certainly for a reponsible airline with a good safety culture it can be a useful tool. For an airline keen to punish offenders (such as mine - and I mean US $ fines for errors) it has the opposite effect and just results in crews flying to avoid triggers.
Hope that helps.
(edited for inclusion of reasoning for use of "Quick Access" term)
Last edited by Clive; 17th Oct 2006 at 01:16.
I think the fact of the matter is that is SHOULDN'T have happened in the first place...full stop. Many accidents have occurred after the crew realised a mistake a bit too late...
Propelled:
Propelled, you do not seem to grasp just how serious an incident this was.
You have a moral duty to report it. By choosing not to, you may think you're being a "good bloke", but you are in fact making a significant negative contribution to air safety in Australia. The accident that may stem from this incident may have nothing to do with flap settings at takeoff.
If you don't have the intestinal fortitude then PM me and I will take care of it.
'Aircraft', I slept quite easily on that flight, as stated in other posts, the crew knew the problem just after rolling and did what they had to do-flaps,etc..the other passengers knew no different...it was a 'non-event' in the cabin..
You have a moral duty to report it. By choosing not to, you may think you're being a "good bloke", but you are in fact making a significant negative contribution to air safety in Australia. The accident that may stem from this incident may have nothing to do with flap settings at takeoff.
If you don't have the intestinal fortitude then PM me and I will take care of it.
Last edited by aircraft; 17th Oct 2006 at 06:11. Reason: wording
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QAR
The QAR will have picked up an "Out of Config" warning and high lighted it as an "trigger event" for those whom monitor such things, it will be plain as day. plus on most modern aircraft the "ACARS" system will also dob in an errant operator to his/her masters if an exceedance, config or fire warning is triggered. (Not sure if this true for the 737 classic)
The aircraft will send a message to ops, maintenace watch etc so there is no where to hide.
I am pretty sure most tech crew know this and would have self reported.
Get off your soap box "aircraft". Regulation of safety is well in hand without your assistance.
The QAR will have picked up an "Out of Config" warning and high lighted it as an "trigger event" for those whom monitor such things, it will be plain as day. plus on most modern aircraft the "ACARS" system will also dob in an errant operator to his/her masters if an exceedance, config or fire warning is triggered. (Not sure if this true for the 737 classic)
The aircraft will send a message to ops, maintenace watch etc so there is no where to hide.
I am pretty sure most tech crew know this and would have self reported.
Get off your soap box "aircraft". Regulation of safety is well in hand without your assistance.