Bass Strait Night Ditching Considerations
Thread Starter
Bass Strait Night Ditching Considerations
Many years ago, a Bristol freighter had an engine failure at night 80 miles south of Wilsons Promontory and unable to maintain height it ditched in Bass Strait - the two crew did not survive. A typical ditching advice contained in the Boeing 737 Crew Training Manual states:
"On final approach announce ditching is imminent and advise crew and passengers to brace for impact.
Maintain airspeed at Vref. Maintain 200 to 300 fpm rate of descent. Plan to touchdown on the windward side and parallel to the waves or swell, if possible. To accomplish the flare and touchdown, rotate smoothly to touchdown attitude of 10-12 degrees. Maintain airspeed and rate of descent with thrust."
This brings up the question of how do you know the direction of the swell - especially as it is important to touch down along the primary swell and not into it where impact energy is greatest. Of course the surface wind must also be taken into consideration and sometimes a compromise be accepted between headwind component and swell direction.
Each night several light twins transit Bass Strait. It is worth knowing that the Bureau of Meteorology make available on request the direction of the primary swell as well as surface winds in the Bass Strait and surrounding waters. From this information a pilot can work out in advance before getting airborne, the optimum heading for ditching in event of an emergency. Depending on the available remaining time before impact, the pilot could take up the pre-planned ditching heading while conducting forced landing trouble checks. Obviously in day VMC visual observation of wave activity is available to the pilot, but at night it is a different matter. Study of the primary sea swell information was considered good airmanship in DC3 days of Bass strait crossings. For some reason that experience has been lost.
"On final approach announce ditching is imminent and advise crew and passengers to brace for impact.
Maintain airspeed at Vref. Maintain 200 to 300 fpm rate of descent. Plan to touchdown on the windward side and parallel to the waves or swell, if possible. To accomplish the flare and touchdown, rotate smoothly to touchdown attitude of 10-12 degrees. Maintain airspeed and rate of descent with thrust."
This brings up the question of how do you know the direction of the swell - especially as it is important to touch down along the primary swell and not into it where impact energy is greatest. Of course the surface wind must also be taken into consideration and sometimes a compromise be accepted between headwind component and swell direction.
Each night several light twins transit Bass Strait. It is worth knowing that the Bureau of Meteorology make available on request the direction of the primary swell as well as surface winds in the Bass Strait and surrounding waters. From this information a pilot can work out in advance before getting airborne, the optimum heading for ditching in event of an emergency. Depending on the available remaining time before impact, the pilot could take up the pre-planned ditching heading while conducting forced landing trouble checks. Obviously in day VMC visual observation of wave activity is available to the pilot, but at night it is a different matter. Study of the primary sea swell information was considered good airmanship in DC3 days of Bass strait crossings. For some reason that experience has been lost.
Thank you Centaurus it's good to be reminded of airmanship issues.
Maybe some of that experience can be retained and passed on if we can pursuade the 'Ancient Pelicans' among us to speak up, or write. Maybe, also, Good Airmanship should be encouraged as a trait with far higher value than it is accorded now. If it was, then younger pilots would have a good reason to speak up, or write, and give us the benifit of their experience.
Cheers,
Pressure ITHBLOT
Maybe some of that experience can be retained and passed on if we can pursuade the 'Ancient Pelicans' among us to speak up, or write. Maybe, also, Good Airmanship should be encouraged as a trait with far higher value than it is accorded now. If it was, then younger pilots would have a good reason to speak up, or write, and give us the benifit of their experience.
Cheers,
Pressure ITHBLOT
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ATC VHF coverage is excellent across the Strait. We have access to the BOM both via voice and internet. ASK FOR ASSISTANCE. If we know what you want, we can get it for you.
ATC are there to help, so please ask and use the correct words to inidcate your situation. "Centre, ABC, can I have the BOM swell report for Bass Strait" gets put to the back of the list for things for ATC to do.
"Centre, ABC, PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN, engine running rough, 20 miles NW Flinders Island, blah blah blah, require the swell report from the BOM etc etc" get us sitting up!
Cheers all, and safe flying,
NFR.
ATC are there to help, so please ask and use the correct words to inidcate your situation. "Centre, ABC, can I have the BOM swell report for Bass Strait" gets put to the back of the list for things for ATC to do.
"Centre, ABC, PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN, engine running rough, 20 miles NW Flinders Island, blah blah blah, require the swell report from the BOM etc etc" get us sitting up!
Cheers all, and safe flying,
NFR.
On most days, Bass Strait has swells running from three different directions which makes the idea of ditching "on the back of a swell" highly problematic. Bass Strait is the second most dangerous bit of water after Cape Horn. It is not unusual when sailing to find yourself on a 'pinnacle" sort of wave where the three different swells coincide.
Today there is a 30 knot Northerly blowing and the following line from the Prom to Gabo forecast reads:
"Seas 1 to 1.5 metres rising 2 to 3 metres offshore and in the west. Southwesterly swell 1 to 1.5 metres, reaching 2 metres in the east" so you see a Northely sea interacting with a swelll from the Southwest - these are the conditions I'm describing.
From my expereince of sailing these waters, the calmest waters are going to be in the lee of the various islands in the Strait where you should only have the prevailing swell to contend with and therefore may get away with a ditching. That includes Rodondo, Deal, Erith, The lee of the Prom, Rabbit island, etc.
It might be a good idea to familiarise yourself with the marine charts of the area and think about where you might head for if the worst came to the worst.
I have yet to screw up the courage to fly (single engined) to Tassie,but I'm thinking about it.
Today there is a 30 knot Northerly blowing and the following line from the Prom to Gabo forecast reads:
"Seas 1 to 1.5 metres rising 2 to 3 metres offshore and in the west. Southwesterly swell 1 to 1.5 metres, reaching 2 metres in the east" so you see a Northely sea interacting with a swelll from the Southwest - these are the conditions I'm describing.
From my expereince of sailing these waters, the calmest waters are going to be in the lee of the various islands in the Strait where you should only have the prevailing swell to contend with and therefore may get away with a ditching. That includes Rodondo, Deal, Erith, The lee of the Prom, Rabbit island, etc.
It might be a good idea to familiarise yourself with the marine charts of the area and think about where you might head for if the worst came to the worst.
I have yet to screw up the courage to fly (single engined) to Tassie,but I'm thinking about it.
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IIRC There have been no survivors from Bass St ditchings including at least one case where the pilot was seen swimming.
Without an immersion suit ditching is probably an academic exercise.
Without an immersion suit ditching is probably an academic exercise.
Last edited by Deaf; 12th Oct 2006 at 03:14.
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Deaf.
True, except with a bit of luck there may be a ship on the horizon. Better to be clued up on the ditching procedure rather than throwing up your hands and saying I'm stuffed anyway so why bother?
Without an immersion suit ditching is probably an academic exercise
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Each day I am astounded by the number of vfr aircraft that flog backwards and forwards across the Strait without requesting overwater skeds. It's a free service so use it (but learn how to ask and what info to provide...ERSA).
As a PPL I also have thought about making the trip, but the idea in a single puts me off a bit (although a twin without a donk is just a longer ride to the water, isn't it?). I'll get the balls up one day, but I'll be trying to go at A085 or A095 to get a few more gliding miles in.
NFR, I have never even heard of the BOM swell report let alone been asked for it, but am happy to go looking for it without the need for someone to declare PAN. I don't think there are too many delays in providing requested information from pilots (especially HB and LT metars all night long.
As a PPL I also have thought about making the trip, but the idea in a single puts me off a bit (although a twin without a donk is just a longer ride to the water, isn't it?). I'll get the balls up one day, but I'll be trying to go at A085 or A095 to get a few more gliding miles in.
NFR, I have never even heard of the BOM swell report let alone been asked for it, but am happy to go looking for it without the need for someone to declare PAN. I don't think there are too many delays in providing requested information from pilots (especially HB and LT metars all night long.
Last edited by Roger Standby; 12th Oct 2006 at 16:07. Reason: Woo Hoo!!! Just looked back and noticed it's my 100th post!!!
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16,000 hours <3,000 over the Straits waters and I have to say Tee Emm there were days when the thought of not wishing to prolong the agony of a ditching came to the fore. 70 knot winds in the squalls and single engine helo and the sea state ???? just a mass of spume - you get the idea. One ditching from which there were some survivors (and fatalities) was a Navy Wessex proceeding to the beach with a high frequency vibration. At low level the main gear box spat out a gear wheel which removed a control run in the process, helo rolled on its back and hit the water inverted. One of our helos landed on the water (fixed floats, calm day) and pulled survivors aboard. Sunfish - pick a nice day and go. If you do, circumnavigate the Tassie south and western coast (nice day again) - you wont regret it. And stop at the Melaluca airstrip and pay a visit to Denny Kings old home and tin mine.
Breathes there a pilot with a soul so dead
Who never to himself has said:
"I really wish that I could flee
In my own plane across the sea."
- With apologies to Sir Walter Scott
Was not the briefs for the airline pistons plying the oceanic routes in days past given recommended ditching headings? The Whyalla Airlines accident illustrated some of the difficulties with a night ditching - a landing light could have been a big help for the unfortunate lad. Is yours mounted on a gear leg should be a question you ask yourself in contemplating what you might do.
Breathes there a pilot with a soul so dead
Who never to himself has said:
"I really wish that I could flee
In my own plane across the sea."
- With apologies to Sir Walter Scott
Was not the briefs for the airline pistons plying the oceanic routes in days past given recommended ditching headings? The Whyalla Airlines accident illustrated some of the difficulties with a night ditching - a landing light could have been a big help for the unfortunate lad. Is yours mounted on a gear leg should be a question you ask yourself in contemplating what you might do.
Ditching - At Night?........
Consider this.......
...."There is not a pilot flying the ocean who can altogether ignore the possibility of ditching.
It is the one thing which cannot be practised in any check flight - at least to its finality. Only those who have accomplished it know what it's like to land in the sea and they are the first to admit luck favoured them as much as skill. The manuals say "the aircraft should be ditched on the back side of a swell".
Ho. . . Ho! Who is the maestro who can set ailing tons of machinery down on the back side of an ocean swell, which is itself moving at twenty or thirty miles an hour?
Who can select such a convenient bosom from the night void below, slide cross-wind with it, and survive to say it was skill?
Official directions for behaviour during a ditching are wonderfully specific - the First Officer does this, the Second Officer does that, and the Cabin Attendants are drilled to as near perfection as any frightened human being can be. But the most important item, which might presumably guarantee the landing of the aeroplane in one piece, is notably lacking in detail.
This we have all discussed endlessly, and most of us have secretly rehearsed our intended procedures until a measure of confidence has been found. Only one thing remains a certainty.
Ditching can never be a matter of choice. Any measures, however unorthodox or absurd, are wise and worthy if they will keep a sick aeroplane up where it belongs...........
Chapter 17, page 272 in my ancient, much loved, and well worn 'paper back'
version of Ernest K. Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter".
One of the most knowledgeable of the 'Ancient Pelicans'....IMHO.
Yep! I'll bet that we have ALL lain in bed at night and 'secretly rehearsed' what WE would do IF.......
And, having had my share of overwater flights - mostly during the day - by choice - I would thank the ATC for their advice re the BOM advised 'conditions'....and agree that, depending on the location / water temp
at the time, etc etc, there are MORE things to be considered than the actual surviving the event of the impact of the 'landing' at night....
What then?
'Search But No Rescue' - a well known TV program aired on the ABC which highlighted our 'bureaucracy' of the times??? (And sponsored by .....RHS) - Has ANYTHING changed??
Take your immersion suit for the 'cooler water' climes is all one can really advise....and carry a PERSONAL ELT/VSB / FLASHING LIGHT - FIRMLY SECURED In your TOP POCKET!!!!!
And, pray that those choppers are still in the area - and that someone KNOWS about them!!! Better still...do your own research and if you KNOW they are still available - tell ATC you want them!! They will only relay your predicament to the SARCENTRE anyway......
CENTAURUS -
p.s. Is that the Bristol Freighter that had the NOSE loading DOORS open in flight that you are referring to?
Did the crew survive the impact?? Is that known? That would be SOME DRAG!!! and some impact....
...."There is not a pilot flying the ocean who can altogether ignore the possibility of ditching.
It is the one thing which cannot be practised in any check flight - at least to its finality. Only those who have accomplished it know what it's like to land in the sea and they are the first to admit luck favoured them as much as skill. The manuals say "the aircraft should be ditched on the back side of a swell".
Ho. . . Ho! Who is the maestro who can set ailing tons of machinery down on the back side of an ocean swell, which is itself moving at twenty or thirty miles an hour?
Who can select such a convenient bosom from the night void below, slide cross-wind with it, and survive to say it was skill?
Official directions for behaviour during a ditching are wonderfully specific - the First Officer does this, the Second Officer does that, and the Cabin Attendants are drilled to as near perfection as any frightened human being can be. But the most important item, which might presumably guarantee the landing of the aeroplane in one piece, is notably lacking in detail.
This we have all discussed endlessly, and most of us have secretly rehearsed our intended procedures until a measure of confidence has been found. Only one thing remains a certainty.
Ditching can never be a matter of choice. Any measures, however unorthodox or absurd, are wise and worthy if they will keep a sick aeroplane up where it belongs...........
Chapter 17, page 272 in my ancient, much loved, and well worn 'paper back'
version of Ernest K. Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter".
One of the most knowledgeable of the 'Ancient Pelicans'....IMHO.
Yep! I'll bet that we have ALL lain in bed at night and 'secretly rehearsed' what WE would do IF.......
And, having had my share of overwater flights - mostly during the day - by choice - I would thank the ATC for their advice re the BOM advised 'conditions'....and agree that, depending on the location / water temp
at the time, etc etc, there are MORE things to be considered than the actual surviving the event of the impact of the 'landing' at night....
What then?
'Search But No Rescue' - a well known TV program aired on the ABC which highlighted our 'bureaucracy' of the times??? (And sponsored by .....RHS) - Has ANYTHING changed??
Take your immersion suit for the 'cooler water' climes is all one can really advise....and carry a PERSONAL ELT/VSB / FLASHING LIGHT - FIRMLY SECURED In your TOP POCKET!!!!!
And, pray that those choppers are still in the area - and that someone KNOWS about them!!! Better still...do your own research and if you KNOW they are still available - tell ATC you want them!! They will only relay your predicament to the SARCENTRE anyway......
CENTAURUS -
p.s. Is that the Bristol Freighter that had the NOSE loading DOORS open in flight that you are referring to?
Did the crew survive the impact?? Is that known? That would be SOME DRAG!!! and some impact....
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16 years flying around Bass Strait , middle of winter and night freight. I had plenty of time to ponder this question. My chief pilot and I came to the conclusion that a quick end would be better than the 15 mins in the water if you were lucky enough to survive a night ditching.
Take care over the strait , you dont have to go if its not right. There is plenty of work O/S , I should have made the move years earlier.
Take care over the strait , you dont have to go if its not right. There is plenty of work O/S , I should have made the move years earlier.
Thread Starter
Back in another lifetime we flew old Lincoln bombers on long range over the water flights. Part of our instrument training was simulated approach to ditching. This was done under the hood and it revealed it took good instrument flying skills to approach at Vref with full flap at no more than 200 ft per minute rate of descent and slightly nose up attitude.
Have practiced the same manoeuvre in the Boeing 737 flight simulator. It takes fine control movements and very good raw data cross reference skills to maintain the correct stable approach from 500 ft down. It is a good idea to practice this under the hood in a light twin. It is worth the time and money spent.
Have practiced the same manoeuvre in the Boeing 737 flight simulator. It takes fine control movements and very good raw data cross reference skills to maintain the correct stable approach from 500 ft down. It is a good idea to practice this under the hood in a light twin. It is worth the time and money spent.
I'm in one of those moods
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..Yup night only if you have to .. and then only with more than one racket maker (engine that is .. not missus) 
.
.. go high as you can (RADAR coverage both sides of the pond), from the Prom to FLI thence NE TAS (minimum distances between dirt bits) and do make use of the Sched service VFR ... the guys and gals in the centre are tops, and have the bells and whistles at their finger tips ... it is good insurance!
.
... if conditions are marginal (particularly freezing level) .... well you know the drum .. pub1 departure and do it another day
.
.. and if in any doubt, LT TWR's phone number is in the ERSA (put it in the mob phone before you go).. for an actual whislt enroute (approaching FLI)... we won't bite
... and if it all goes to ****e in TAS .. well a night at FLI just adds to the experience
.
.. once here, you will not see more spectacular coastline/wilderness from the air .. as well as beaut hospitality and local beverages .... superb!!
.
.. Sunfish (and any other PPRuNers) .. if you do venture across, make sure you drop in, the coffee and tea are free
.. and then only with more than one racket maker (engine that is .. not missus) .
.. go high as you can (RADAR coverage both sides of the pond), from the Prom to FLI thence NE TAS (minimum distances between dirt bits) and do make use of the Sched service VFR ... the guys and gals in the centre are tops, and have the bells and whistles at their finger tips ... it is good insurance!
.
... if conditions are marginal (particularly freezing level) .... well you know the drum .. pub1 departure and do it another day
.
.. and if in any doubt, LT TWR's phone number is in the ERSA (put it in the mob phone before you go).. for an actual whislt enroute (approaching FLI)... we won't bite
... and if it all goes to ****e in TAS .. well a night at FLI just adds to the experience .
.. once here, you will not see more spectacular coastline/wilderness from the air .. as well as beaut hospitality and local beverages .... superb!!
.
.. Sunfish (and any other PPRuNers) .. if you do venture across, make sure you drop in, the coffee and tea are free
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This is clever
Original post said;
"Boeing 737 Crew Training Manual states:
"On final approach announce ditching is imminent and advise crew and passengers to brace for impact.
Maintain airspeed at Vref. Maintain 200 to 300 fpm rate of descent. Plan to touchdown on the windward side and parallel to the waves or swell, if possible. To accomplish the flare and touchdown, rotate smoothly to touchdown attitude of 10-12 degrees. Maintain airspeed and rate of descent with thrust."
I pressume the most likely reason for a ditching is due to the lack of THRUST
....... so I have to wonder how the Boing boys expect you to accomplish this feat
J
"Boeing 737 Crew Training Manual states:
"On final approach announce ditching is imminent and advise crew and passengers to brace for impact.
Maintain airspeed at Vref. Maintain 200 to 300 fpm rate of descent. Plan to touchdown on the windward side and parallel to the waves or swell, if possible. To accomplish the flare and touchdown, rotate smoothly to touchdown attitude of 10-12 degrees. Maintain airspeed and rate of descent with thrust."
I pressume the most likely reason for a ditching is due to the lack of THRUST
....... so I have to wonder how the Boing boys expect you to accomplish this feat J
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For those currently flying over the brine and those who wish to, a good piece of survival equipment is a facemask and snorkel. Chances of survival are increased by keeping fuel/oil from eyes as well as spray and glass reflects light in day time as well as being able to see inside aircraft should it float as some in fact do. What do you think your chances of survival are with fuel/oil in the eyes?
Anyhow, some ferry pilots do this and are alive today as a result.
Anyhow, some ferry pilots do this and are alive today as a result.
Last edited by jetstar21; 13th Oct 2006 at 10:49. Reason: type error
G'day 'Zep'...
The APU..........
Would THAT be the ''Aero Pick Up"........(C-130 arrives with BIG hook....)
Or the "Attitude Position Undercator"....For our NZ mates...
Or "ZULU" for 'Beam us up Scotty'........Please....
Good one Zep!!!!!!!!
Just 'tickled' my fancy at the time............
Cheers
Would THAT be the ''Aero Pick Up"........(C-130 arrives with BIG hook....)
Or the "Attitude Position Undercator"....For our NZ mates...
Or "ZULU" for 'Beam us up Scotty'........Please....
Good one Zep!!!!!!!!
Just 'tickled' my fancy at the time............
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 13th Oct 2006 at 12:47.
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Love it D&G back to form
Led Zep.........Classic!!!!
I am sure APU is not ALTERNATE Propulsion Unit
The Spirit of D&G is returning.......although Led Zep and myself might be on holidays by the morning
J
I am sure APU is not ALTERNATE Propulsion Unit
The Spirit of D&G is returning.......although Led Zep and myself might be on holidays by the morning
J
G'day Griffo!
Well, I'm still here J430, Danny probably hasn't read that this thread yet.
I'm going to agree with sagy34 - just because it has HELICOPTER in it's name doesn't mean it won't give you an edge when your 172 (et al) turns inverted submarine for whatever reason. Temperature of Bass Strait aside, at least you stand more of a chance if you can get out of your aircraft.
Well, I'm still here J430, Danny probably hasn't read that this thread yet.
I'm going to agree with sagy34 - just because it has HELICOPTER in it's name doesn't mean it won't give you an edge when your 172 (et al) turns inverted submarine for whatever reason. Temperature of Bass Strait aside, at least you stand more of a chance if you can get out of your aircraft.