Flying in Europe...Big deal?
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Frangatang is being a bit disengenuous, there are still plenty of jobs in the EU where you dont have "buy" a type rating.
Frang is refering to the large numbers of low-time guys with 200hrs, and a fresh type rating on the A320/B737, who see this as the only way to get a job. I know for a fact that with a little bit of effort and experience i.e. more than 500hrs TT, you stand a very very good chance of being interviewed for T/P jobs
Frang is refering to the large numbers of low-time guys with 200hrs, and a fresh type rating on the A320/B737, who see this as the only way to get a job. I know for a fact that with a little bit of effort and experience i.e. more than 500hrs TT, you stand a very very good chance of being interviewed for T/P jobs
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Which TP
G'day I am in a similar position to Apgrau, converting my licence to JAA.
When it comes to choosing a training provider for the "as required" CPL hours and the IR (10 on sim, 5 in the air), does anyone have any suggestions as to who would be a good candidate for my money?
You get what you pay for, usually, and what would be ideal is a Training Provider with good contacts to put me in touch with a Turbo Prop job (an interview, whatever) so I can get used to the density of airspace/ATC for a couple of years (plus have some fun before the tdm
sets in).
Cheers
A.B.
When it comes to choosing a training provider for the "as required" CPL hours and the IR (10 on sim, 5 in the air), does anyone have any suggestions as to who would be a good candidate for my money?
You get what you pay for, usually, and what would be ideal is a Training Provider with good contacts to put me in touch with a Turbo Prop job (an interview, whatever) so I can get used to the density of airspace/ATC for a couple of years (plus have some fun before the tdm
sets in).Cheers
A.B.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
A European passport is perfect, an ancestry visa is acceptable for eg easyJet.
For the IR, I have heard good things about PAT in Bournemouth and I'd have a sniff around Bristol Flying Centre (I think it's called) for the IR. If you're not in the immediate position to jump to a flash job, they do charters etc and you need 700 hours to do that. (Some companies like 400 hours etc). Minor licence/insurance things I believe.
For the groundschool if you're not already enrolled in one in Oz, look at Bristol Ground School. Alex Whittingham and his team are brilliant.
Recruitment here is booming right now. (Note the 7-10 year cycle)
easyJet = 450 pilots next year.
Netjets Europe = 150+ pilots next year. (Just ordered 24 Dassault 7Xs)
Ryanair = no idea but it would be at least 200 pilots.
BA, Virgin Atlantic, Jet2, B Med, Thomsonfly (Britannia), Monarch, bmibaby all recruiting. (jets)
Turboprops. Flybe, BA Connect. All recruiting. Flybe takes direct entry captains. (Dash 8)
European companies. Air France, Air Berlin, etc.
Just about every bizjet operator such as Flexjet, TAG Aviation, Netjets (see above) are expanding.
Basicly, if you have 1,000-2,000 hours +, 500 hours turbine (ideally Dash 8, Saab etc) and above, there's a job here for you. If you have jet time, esp +20 tonnes, then there's a job here.
As for the flying?
Well, it isn't hard. SID-Airway-STAR-vectors-ILS for most airline type operations. Cat III for many operators. Weather is weather really. Seen more scary wx in Australia. Ok, it's a bit colder in winter but the countries that have the bad cold wx, they are equipped for it.
ATC is probably the biggest challenge. From the excitable Italians to the incomprehensible Russians (and metric) and the rapid fire Brits. Mountains are a bit higher too.
Probably the best move I (we) ever made career wise.
For the IR, I have heard good things about PAT in Bournemouth and I'd have a sniff around Bristol Flying Centre (I think it's called) for the IR. If you're not in the immediate position to jump to a flash job, they do charters etc and you need 700 hours to do that. (Some companies like 400 hours etc). Minor licence/insurance things I believe.
For the groundschool if you're not already enrolled in one in Oz, look at Bristol Ground School. Alex Whittingham and his team are brilliant.
Recruitment here is booming right now. (Note the 7-10 year cycle)
easyJet = 450 pilots next year.
Netjets Europe = 150+ pilots next year. (Just ordered 24 Dassault 7Xs)
Ryanair = no idea but it would be at least 200 pilots.
BA, Virgin Atlantic, Jet2, B Med, Thomsonfly (Britannia), Monarch, bmibaby all recruiting. (jets)
Turboprops. Flybe, BA Connect. All recruiting. Flybe takes direct entry captains. (Dash 8)
European companies. Air France, Air Berlin, etc.
Just about every bizjet operator such as Flexjet, TAG Aviation, Netjets (see above) are expanding.
Basicly, if you have 1,000-2,000 hours +, 500 hours turbine (ideally Dash 8, Saab etc) and above, there's a job here for you. If you have jet time, esp +20 tonnes, then there's a job here.
As for the flying?
Well, it isn't hard. SID-Airway-STAR-vectors-ILS for most airline type operations. Cat III for many operators. Weather is weather really. Seen more scary wx in Australia. Ok, it's a bit colder in winter but the countries that have the bad cold wx, they are equipped for it.
ATC is probably the biggest challenge. From the excitable Italians to the incomprehensible Russians (and metric) and the rapid fire Brits. Mountains are a bit higher too.
Probably the best move I (we) ever made career wise.
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There's quite abit of hiring going on at the moment and if you have at least 500 hours total time you should be in good stead for a Turbo-Prop job at least. MCC is essential.
I came here in year 2000 with only 370 hours, got a weekend gig in a C206 doing Meat Bombing and was offered an F27 job doing night freight at about 410 hours. At just over 1500 hours total, I was offered a 737 job and now have about 500 hours on the 737.
ATC are good over here in the UK, airports are well equiped with ILS's and full Radar coverage. You'll never have to do a Timed Procedure NDB ever again!!! DMEs everywhere. French ATC are good, Spanish are pretty bad, Italians are even worse!!!
Good luck!!!
I came here in year 2000 with only 370 hours, got a weekend gig in a C206 doing Meat Bombing and was offered an F27 job doing night freight at about 410 hours. At just over 1500 hours total, I was offered a 737 job and now have about 500 hours on the 737.
ATC are good over here in the UK, airports are well equiped with ILS's and full Radar coverage. You'll never have to do a Timed Procedure NDB ever again!!! DMEs everywhere. French ATC are good, Spanish are pretty bad, Italians are even worse!!!
Good luck!!!
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Thanks for all the replies guys, it's good to get all this feedback from people who have been through this before.
I will probably have 500+ hours by the time I have done my IR and all the conversion so I am hoping I stand a good chance for the first job.
Sounds like the timing could not be any better. Lets just hope it stays that way!
I will probably have 500+ hours by the time I have done my IR and all the conversion so I am hoping I stand a good chance for the first job.
Sounds like the timing could not be any better. Lets just hope it stays that way!
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Apgrau, you mentioned that you were going to get your Instrument Rating then convert to the JAA licence, well remembering from when I did it (I did not have an Oz IR), the CAA did not give us any credit for posessing an IR but exempted us from the Morse Code exam. All I'm saying is that you may be able to save money by NOT getting an Oz IR as you'll have to do it in the UK anyway. Things may have changed since then (1999) but I'm sure you've sussed it all out already.
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V1R, thanks for the post but I guess things have changed alittle since your days..
Apparently you can hold an IR and convert it to a JAR one simply by sitting an IR flight test. The catch is that you must have a minimum of 15h in european airspace but i guess it makes sense since you got to familiarise yourself with it. I kinda worked out that it still works cheaper to do the IR here and fly another 15h in E.U.
At the end of the day, even if it is going to cost just as much as an initial IR in europe, you get more hours out of it.
Anybody know anything more about this?
I guess time will tell..
Apparently you can hold an IR and convert it to a JAR one simply by sitting an IR flight test. The catch is that you must have a minimum of 15h in european airspace but i guess it makes sense since you got to familiarise yourself with it. I kinda worked out that it still works cheaper to do the IR here and fly another 15h in E.U.
At the end of the day, even if it is going to cost just as much as an initial IR in europe, you get more hours out of it.
Anybody know anything more about this?
I guess time will tell..
PPRuNe Handmaiden
The CAA and CASA's interpretation of what's important in an IR flight test is slightly different.
I did a combined IR and LST in the mighty Shed (Shorts 330) and well, let's say it was interesting.
The CAA love holding patterns. Just love them. Learn to do those beautifully and you're laughing.
Speeds etc. You'll be expected to nominate the speeds you'll use for cruise and that wonderful holding pattern and you'll get a black mark if you're not within 5 kts of it. (or is it 10kts? Can't remember!)
The UK CAA use their own unique speeds for the approaches instead of ICAO. Use ICAO at your peril.
They also love limited panel UA recoveries. Their interpretation of a circle to land left me speechless too. However, it's their trainset and you have to play by their rules.
So, if you have to do an IR conversion in a real aeroplane, definitely make sure the instructor goes over the points that the examiner will be looking for.
Note, when Checkboard did his version of the IR/LST in the 737 sim, he didn't have to do UA recovery and half the other crap I had to do. He just a did a straight LST.
I did a combined IR and LST in the mighty Shed (Shorts 330) and well, let's say it was interesting.
The CAA love holding patterns. Just love them. Learn to do those beautifully and you're laughing.
Speeds etc. You'll be expected to nominate the speeds you'll use for cruise and that wonderful holding pattern and you'll get a black mark if you're not within 5 kts of it. (or is it 10kts? Can't remember!)
The UK CAA use their own unique speeds for the approaches instead of ICAO. Use ICAO at your peril.
They also love limited panel UA recoveries. Their interpretation of a circle to land left me speechless too. However, it's their trainset and you have to play by their rules.
So, if you have to do an IR conversion in a real aeroplane, definitely make sure the instructor goes over the points that the examiner will be looking for.
Note, when Checkboard did his version of the IR/LST in the 737 sim, he didn't have to do UA recovery and half the other crap I had to do. He just a did a straight LST.
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thanks for the good info...
now I am really interesteed with all the talk of the job availiability there. On that front, with 1500TT and 150 multi (+EU passport) what are the prospects like?
the cost of conversion is the big downside to this... from my research i doubt there would be change from 20k, doing most in oz, but the 15 hours for the IR conversion in the UK.
From those that have done it, does it really stack up $$ wise??
It does seem like a case of the grass being greener...but is it really worth it?
At 500 TT there would have been no doubt but I have already spent countless amounts of money getting this far, not too keen on 'stepping back' so to speak
now I am really interesteed with all the talk of the job availiability there. On that front, with 1500TT and 150 multi (+EU passport) what are the prospects like?
the cost of conversion is the big downside to this... from my research i doubt there would be change from 20k, doing most in oz, but the 15 hours for the IR conversion in the UK.
From those that have done it, does it really stack up $$ wise??
It does seem like a case of the grass being greener...but is it really worth it?
At 500 TT there would have been no doubt but I have already spent countless amounts of money getting this far, not too keen on 'stepping back' so to speak
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Playing the devil's advocate for a bit of a reality check.
Yes there are jobs around, more than Aus cause there are more airlines flying more aircraft but it won't be a given that you get one just because you have a JAR licence. Ask Reddo how long before she cracked it and I know others who have left because they ran out of cash and wanted to see the sun again. I am not saying don't try, just be aware of the pit falls.
As far as cash goes double whatever the number you come up with and add another 10% for a contingency and it will be about right. Don't forget the cost of living up here particularly if Oz dollar funded.
And no one has mentioned the fact that once you come and get a job you will be up here for the forseeable future and unlikely to ever get an equivalent job back in Aus. It is something to consider particularly with family as they won't be Aussie kids and will only get home once a year if you are lucky.
Apart from that it can work out OK, just be realistic about the industry as it is usually all down to perserverance and luck.
Yes there are jobs around, more than Aus cause there are more airlines flying more aircraft but it won't be a given that you get one just because you have a JAR licence. Ask Reddo how long before she cracked it and I know others who have left because they ran out of cash and wanted to see the sun again. I am not saying don't try, just be aware of the pit falls.
As far as cash goes double whatever the number you come up with and add another 10% for a contingency and it will be about right. Don't forget the cost of living up here particularly if Oz dollar funded.
And no one has mentioned the fact that once you come and get a job you will be up here for the forseeable future and unlikely to ever get an equivalent job back in Aus. It is something to consider particularly with family as they won't be Aussie kids and will only get home once a year if you are lucky.
Apart from that it can work out OK, just be realistic about the industry as it is usually all down to perserverance and luck.
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Well said Alistair. A lot of people have a very warped impression of working in the EU. Staying realistic is important, without being overly negative of course...
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As for the expense of going to Europe, I think Alistair got it summed up pretty well. It can be frightfully expensive over there (especially in the UK, but the rest of Europe is also getting pretty up there too).
Also consider schooling situations if you have kids - private school may be the way to go if you happen to live in an educationally poor areas, and private schools are pretty expensive.
The advice to all those who are considering going to Europe is to be realistic, be financially prepared, and if you do go, don't give up easily.
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I agree with all that is said above guys..
Europe is more expensive, no doubt!
If I was born and bred as an Aussie I would definetely give it alot of thought before I took off for the EU! I was born in Athens from an Aussie mother and hence I decided to make the big step and come here for my training as you all know how good flying is here. My family and what I call home though, is back in Greece and my intentions have always been to go back!
I always loved Oz and wanted to live here for a few years to check it out. I could have done it all in europe without the hassle of conversions but the experience I got flying around here was priceless.
I am funding my training in Euros so it makes a bit of a difference.
It is very hard beeing away from home for a long period of time and maybe some of you guys might think it is not that hard, but it gets harder and harder every year!!I guess it also depends on how much you enjoy what you do and where you live..
Living in Europe and if I am lucky enough flying in Greece will mean living at home for a while which will cut down some of my expences instead of increasing them ...especially during the whole waiting game....
Lets just hope the perserverance and luck will get me there!
Thanks for the help guys!
Apgrau.
Europe is more expensive, no doubt!
If I was born and bred as an Aussie I would definetely give it alot of thought before I took off for the EU! I was born in Athens from an Aussie mother and hence I decided to make the big step and come here for my training as you all know how good flying is here. My family and what I call home though, is back in Greece and my intentions have always been to go back!
I always loved Oz and wanted to live here for a few years to check it out. I could have done it all in europe without the hassle of conversions but the experience I got flying around here was priceless.
I am funding my training in Euros so it makes a bit of a difference.
It is very hard beeing away from home for a long period of time and maybe some of you guys might think it is not that hard, but it gets harder and harder every year!!I guess it also depends on how much you enjoy what you do and where you live..
Living in Europe and if I am lucky enough flying in Greece will mean living at home for a while which will cut down some of my expences instead of increasing them
...especially during the whole waiting game.... Lets just hope the perserverance and luck will get me there!
Thanks for the help guys!
Apgrau.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Alistair,
So true mate. We more or less can't afford to go back to Australia as there's no way we'd get the equivalent jobs, let alone the pay! So, you been sending your kids to Aussie elocution lessons?
We're treating the European thing as a 20 year working holiday.
Aussie,
Define your low time? It is worth getting an Aus ATPL versus the CPL + ME CIR.
Apgrau,
I haven't done much flying around Greece yet. Been into Athens a few times. Your country is definitely on our must visit list.
So true mate. We more or less can't afford to go back to Australia as there's no way we'd get the equivalent jobs, let alone the pay! So, you been sending your kids to Aussie elocution lessons?
We're treating the European thing as a 20 year working holiday. Aussie,
Define your low time? It is worth getting an Aus ATPL versus the CPL + ME CIR.
Apgrau,
I haven't done much flying around Greece yet. Been into Athens a few times. Your country is definitely on our must visit list.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Aussie,
Unless you can speak another language well, your best bet is the UK. Lots of turboprop operators around looking for folks who'll be happy in the RHS of a Dash 8 for a couple of years. Quite a few operators of Barbie jets who want the same.
Then again, you could be lucky and be ace of the base and score a jet job straight away. The trick is to find a job that doesn't expect you to buy that rating.
Most folks seem to get their command (on a jet) with about 3,000 (factored) hours or maybe 5,000 hours. Turboprop commands happen at around 1,500 to 2,500 hours (assuming ~1,000+ on type/equivalent and the job)
Again, those are generalisations.
Unless you can speak another language well, your best bet is the UK. Lots of turboprop operators around looking for folks who'll be happy in the RHS of a Dash 8 for a couple of years. Quite a few operators of Barbie jets who want the same.
Then again, you could be lucky and be ace of the base and score a jet job straight away. The trick is to find a job that doesn't expect you to buy that rating.
Most folks seem to get their command (on a jet) with about 3,000 (factored) hours or maybe 5,000 hours. Turboprop commands happen at around 1,500 to 2,500 hours (assuming ~1,000+ on type/equivalent and the job)
Again, those are generalisations.