Dixon crosses the line in the sand...
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where I'm not alarmed
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Opening a can of worms here mate! To understand how Qantas Longhaul pilots are paid requires something just a bit less than a Rhodes Scholarship. Their pay formulae is quite complex and herein lays one of the problems that Qantas has been saddled with and would surely like to get rid of. To answer your Qs --yes, yes and sort of!
Nunc est bibendum
Also true that the pay per credit hour for an F/O on the 767 is significantly lessthan a pay per 'stick credit' on the 737.
QF drivers get somewhere between 1000 and 1100 credit per annum for about 700-800 hours of flying. I haven't checked for a while but a bunch of years back the 737 F/O rate was more than 25% greater than the 767 F/O rate.
We also get a 'min daily credit'- IE if the company flies me to LAX and sits me around for ten days then I pick up 5:30 per day.
I think the extra credit for night flying will be targeted very soon.
Company stated aim is for us to get 5% more money but to work 10% more for it. Any way you cut it that's a pay cut based on the amount of work we do.
QF drivers get somewhere between 1000 and 1100 credit per annum for about 700-800 hours of flying. I haven't checked for a while but a bunch of years back the 737 F/O rate was more than 25% greater than the 767 F/O rate.
We also get a 'min daily credit'- IE if the company flies me to LAX and sits me around for ten days then I pick up 5:30 per day.
I think the extra credit for night flying will be targeted very soon.
Company stated aim is for us to get 5% more money but to work 10% more for it. Any way you cut it that's a pay cut based on the amount of work we do.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you fly at night under the long haul award, the credited hours accrue at a rate of 1 1/3 hours for every hour flown.
This does not mean you get paid more for night flying. It means, if you do a fair amount of it, that you get to the divisor faster and hence work less days in the roster. It is a way to take into account the more fatiguing nature of a lot of the "back of the clock" flying that LH pilots do.
On average, 744 pilots would work 3-4 days less per roster than a 767 pilot because of this facet of the award. The 744 guys generally needs this, due to the jet lag inherent in their operation.
This does not mean you get paid more for night flying. It means, if you do a fair amount of it, that you get to the divisor faster and hence work less days in the roster. It is a way to take into account the more fatiguing nature of a lot of the "back of the clock" flying that LH pilots do.
On average, 744 pilots would work 3-4 days less per roster than a 767 pilot because of this facet of the award. The 744 guys generally needs this, due to the jet lag inherent in their operation.
Registered User **
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The_Cutest_of_Borg...Are you saying that 767's don't fly at night ?
I'm sure there are a few 767 crew who would debate that last part of your post...( the jet lag part )
"On average, 744 pilots would work 3-4 days less per roster than a 767 pilot because of this facet of the award. The 744 guys generally needs this, due to the jet lag inherent in their operation."
Or was this because the guys in AIPA who set this up flew the 400...just a thought..any 767 crew want to comment
I'm sure there are a few 767 crew who would debate that last part of your post...( the jet lag part )
"On average, 744 pilots would work 3-4 days less per roster than a 767 pilot because of this facet of the award. The 744 guys generally needs this, due to the jet lag inherent in their operation."
Or was this because the guys in AIPA who set this up flew the 400...just a thought..any 767 crew want to comment
Red the 767 operates under the long haul award therefore recieve night credits aswell.
.With regards to the "jetlag" comment,this is all about time zone change not necessarily, night flying. Night hours on the 767 are hard work, like any other night job, but a coupla hours kip when I get in sorts out the problem and a normal nights rest follows.
.With regards to the "jetlag" comment,this is all about time zone change not necessarily, night flying. Night hours on the 767 are hard work, like any other night job, but a coupla hours kip when I get in sorts out the problem and a normal nights rest follows.
Last edited by rockarpee; 20th Sep 2006 at 04:42.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mostly at home
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In 1967, when the long-haul award was developed, the 747-100 was a paper aeroplane.
Oh, and the particular AFAP people you just slagged off at, contributed to their fellow pilots welfare .... can you say the same?
Kind Regards,
N
Oh, and the particular AFAP people you just slagged off at, contributed to their fellow pilots welfare .... can you say the same?
Kind Regards,
N
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Red, I have flown both types so I know what I am talking about. This provision in the LH award goes back to before even the 747 was in Qantas.
Yes the 767 flies at night. But generally the 744 guys fly more, hence they have less days at work in a normal roster. This is meant to be a statement of fact, not stirring up some sort of inter-necine warfare here...
Yes the 767 flies at night. But generally the 744 guys fly more, hence they have less days at work in a normal roster. This is meant to be a statement of fact, not stirring up some sort of inter-necine warfare here...
Nunc est bibendum
Just to back up some other issues too. I've been back on the 744 for less than six months after nearly nine years on the 767 as an F/O- and a S/O on the 744 prior to that. I've had three colds in that time back on the 744 and have been regularly tired at home anywhere between two and four days after getting home. I attribute this to back of clock and night flying. On the 767 I had maybe one cold every couple of years and was rarely tired anything longer than the day I got home from a trip. I should also note that for the last few years on the 767 I was almost exclusively an international pilot which guaranteed that I would be flying a night sector home to Australia more often than not! Sure the 744 has it easy at times- heavy crew, time off in slip port, etc- but it is certainly much harder on the body at home as well as the family.
I did an eight day London pattern recently which was daylight most of the way there and back. Trip credit was 44:00. Stick hour credits was about 42. I felt magnificent when I got home from the trip. They've gone to the top of my bid! It just goes to show that the night credit is worth it....it takes much more out of you.
Finally I do love it when someone tries to slag off a particular fleet/airline or take a particular angle only to find that they have completely and utterly mis-read the situation and the backgrounds of those they are responding to. The proof as to RedTBar's bona fides will be whether there is an admission of 'oops I stuffed up' or vitriol in response to Borg et al.
I did an eight day London pattern recently which was daylight most of the way there and back. Trip credit was 44:00. Stick hour credits was about 42. I felt magnificent when I got home from the trip. They've gone to the top of my bid! It just goes to show that the night credit is worth it....it takes much more out of you.
Finally I do love it when someone tries to slag off a particular fleet/airline or take a particular angle only to find that they have completely and utterly mis-read the situation and the backgrounds of those they are responding to. The proof as to RedTBar's bona fides will be whether there is an admission of 'oops I stuffed up' or vitriol in response to Borg et al.
Registered User **
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg,
There is or was no vitriol in my post re Borgs post ..
I was just curious as most 76 crews I have met seem less than enamoured about their flying than you seem to have been.In addition the ones that have gone over to the 400 or airbus tell me that they have never had it so good on the new aircraft. So no I don't think I have stuffed up as you put it.
There is or was no vitriol in my post re Borgs post ..
I was just curious as most 76 crews I have met seem less than enamoured about their flying than you seem to have been.In addition the ones that have gone over to the 400 or airbus tell me that they have never had it so good on the new aircraft. So no I don't think I have stuffed up as you put it.
Registered User **
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg,
There is or was no vitriol in my post re Borgs post ..
I was just curious as most 76 crews I have met seem less than enamoured about their flying than you seem to have been.In addition the ones that have gone over to the 400 or airbus tell me that they have never had it so good on the new aircraft. I also totally agree that daylight flying is far better than night flying but then any shift worker will tell you that so no I don't think I have stuffed up as you put it.
There is or was no vitriol in my post re Borgs post ..
I was just curious as most 76 crews I have met seem less than enamoured about their flying than you seem to have been.In addition the ones that have gone over to the 400 or airbus tell me that they have never had it so good on the new aircraft. I also totally agree that daylight flying is far better than night flying but then any shift worker will tell you that so no I don't think I have stuffed up as you put it.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have flown the 744. Now on the 767. The 767 has changed with new rostering software which aggressively drives towards the lowest cost to the company (irrespective of pretty much anything else, including common sense). The flying leaves you acutely fatigued on many trips due to long multi-sector days and short slips. It's not uncommon to run into CAO48 hassles. When you do that 5 days in a row, you're stuffed. One or two nights off, and it all starts again. When it's late at night, it's worse, as we found out at midnight in MEL a little while ago after smacking the aeroplane into the runway, both of us having toothpicks propping open our eyelids. AIPA have mitigated the effects of some of the patterns, but there's only so much they can do.
The 744 is a different kind of fatigue. Jetlag/body clock style. But you get bucketloads of time off in compensation (as well as being paid significantly more), and personally, my bid to go back there cannot come soon enough! Just a personal perspective.
The 744 is a different kind of fatigue. Jetlag/body clock style. But you get bucketloads of time off in compensation (as well as being paid significantly more), and personally, my bid to go back there cannot come soon enough! Just a personal perspective.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: bumf*ck, idaho
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ding ding ding......round 2
AIPA's in the corner copping some body blows, the short haul EBA's completely dead in the water...
What is its next move?????
AIPA's in the corner copping some body blows, the short haul EBA's completely dead in the water...
What is its next move?????
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your Association has joined forces with the other QF unions at ACTU level (something very new and scary to pilots) and one of them perhaps the most powerful is about to go into an EBA period, you wanna slap them upside the head, talk to the men who certify the airworthiness of your A/C
Excuse Me!
And as if all this wasn't enough, there is now a $10 charge per paper ticket on QF staff travel. He is really trying to piss people off, as if staff travel isn't expensive enough. I'll tell you I would like to leave when a new international carrier opens its doors in Australia where much less of this **** goes on and they actually treat their staff as an asset, however I don't think I would get there as I would be killed in the rush.
Grandpa Aerotart
Any of you worked it out yet?
Piss of all the expensive senior staff and they leave to be replaced with cheaper junior staff...who do the same job. A major UK airline, Brittania, offered it's most senior long serving captains in the vicinity of GBP100k years ago to resign so they could be replaced with junior captains on 2/3rds their wage...a ploy that paid handsome dividends in just a few short years.
LJH's 'Work Choices' is all about lowering the bar as skills shortages loom large on the horizon as does upwards pressure on wages.
If the upswing starts at a lower point the final outcomes will be lower too...which is good for shareholders and executive bonuses. Of course removing the average person's ability to negotiate employment terms and conditions meaningfully is just icing on the cake.
When the govt pubishes CPI increases in the sub 4% range they are just lieing through heir teeth...20+% is more like it.
It has been thus for many a year...and that is why the average worker's pay packet goes no-where near is far as it did 30 years ago.
Smoke and mirrors and grotesque deception.
Piss of all the expensive senior staff and they leave to be replaced with cheaper junior staff...who do the same job. A major UK airline, Brittania, offered it's most senior long serving captains in the vicinity of GBP100k years ago to resign so they could be replaced with junior captains on 2/3rds their wage...a ploy that paid handsome dividends in just a few short years.
LJH's 'Work Choices' is all about lowering the bar as skills shortages loom large on the horizon as does upwards pressure on wages.
If the upswing starts at a lower point the final outcomes will be lower too...which is good for shareholders and executive bonuses. Of course removing the average person's ability to negotiate employment terms and conditions meaningfully is just icing on the cake.
When the govt pubishes CPI increases in the sub 4% range they are just lieing through heir teeth...20+% is more like it.
It has been thus for many a year...and that is why the average worker's pay packet goes no-where near is far as it did 30 years ago.
Smoke and mirrors and grotesque deception.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I too was p!ssed when I saw they were charging $10 for a paper ticket. But if you look closely it is only for domestic tickets booked over the phone. They want you to do everything for Domestic travel online. I'm still not happy about this, but I'm more p!ssed about the fuel levy on staff tickets.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Absolutely. The fuel levy on staff tickets is complete BS. It's a very overt way of saying "we really want to get rid of staff travel, but if we can't do it easily, we're gonna gouge the crap out of ya".
Stupid thing is, if they get rid of it, that the seats go empty and they get diddly-squat for them. But I'm guessing the fact they could axe some admin jobs overrides that.
Stupid thing is, if they get rid of it, that the seats go empty and they get diddly-squat for them. But I'm guessing the fact they could axe some admin jobs overrides that.
Didn’t realise it is just for domestic, but this is a start. However I too am even more p!ssed about the fuel levy too. It is such BS. They must already make a killing on the staff tickets anyhow. As you said, empty seat anyway! As I said before, when the chance comes here in Aust., there will be a lot of people wanting to move to airlines where this BS doesn’t go on. Charging staff for the extra fuel it will take to carry them and also for getting a paper ticket domestically, on top of the already inflated staff travel ticket prices - please 
