Qantas pilots refuse shoe security check
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..hate to say it men...we are in a co-operate,graduate mode,and there is not really much you can do about that......whats really disgraceful is the fact that so many airport workers are allowed to enter airport,supposedly sterile areas without being checked themselves.
I talk to many airport personal who will admit to not being screened....talked to a Auckland security bloke last week,who admited the whole thing was a bloody joke,they know it and if the public knew of these practises,there would be a huge stink.
My company has a very strict policy regarding security issues....the bottom line...you cock up...look for another job...their view is this..we dont like it ...you dont like...the whole system sucks.....but we dont make the rules,we just follow them......PB
I talk to many airport personal who will admit to not being screened....talked to a Auckland security bloke last week,who admited the whole thing was a bloody joke,they know it and if the public knew of these practises,there would be a huge stink.
My company has a very strict policy regarding security issues....the bottom line...you cock up...look for another job...their view is this..we dont like it ...you dont like...the whole system sucks.....but we dont make the rules,we just follow them......PB
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PB, I agree with you mate......there are allot of airport personnel that are not screened, it's the ultimate hypocracy.
I had security staff at BNE international about 6 months ago just about tear the flight plan out of my hands to check it to see I wasn't harbouring anything suspect.
Security people are over zealous and lack the intellect to apply basic common sense in matters of elderly with metal hips, knees etc, and plus, they like to play big authoritarian over us tech crew. Says something about their recruitment process really.
I had security staff at BNE international about 6 months ago just about tear the flight plan out of my hands to check it to see I wasn't harbouring anything suspect.
Security people are over zealous and lack the intellect to apply basic common sense in matters of elderly with metal hips, knees etc, and plus, they like to play big authoritarian over us tech crew. Says something about their recruitment process really.
My company has a very strict policy regarding security issues....the bottom line...you cock up...look for another job...their view is this..we dont like it ...you dont like...the whole system sucks.....but we dont make the rules,we just follow them......PB
Today 19:46
Today 19:46
They don't, how ever have a problem with sending AOG equipment and other company paraphernalia on the flight deck having never been through security or a DG's acceptance.
Good for the goose, good for the gander. Send it via a freight company is my attitude. I will not accept responsibility for it any more.
They are not at all worried about the hassles of security unless it affects them, (e.g. delayed flights) and at present it doesn't, it only affects us.
Last edited by RENURPP; 14th Sep 2006 at 21:57.
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Please don't tell me that they were just 'doing their jobs'. You are allowed to perform your job and use your brain at the same time, but this often does not appear to be encouraged in the airport security industry.
Well said Dutchy
'rules are for the strict adherence of fools and the guidance of the wise'. ...it was obviously a fool who was doing security, during that story recounting the elder gentleman with knee surgery in Sydney.
...and Pete, well summed up, in your last paragraph. Here, here!
Well said Dutchy'rules are for the strict adherence of fools and the guidance of the wise'. ...it was obviously a fool who was doing security, during that story recounting the elder gentleman with knee surgery in Sydney.
...and Pete, well summed up, in your last paragraph. Here, here!
Last edited by Chocks Away; 14th Sep 2006 at 21:55.
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BNE Communication Skills
BNE Security personnel believe that to communicate with Japanese Pax in transit from Osaka you simply have to scream at them in English.
Welcome to Australia folks my name is "Bubba" I am your security officer today.
GET OVER HERE!!!!
Welcome to Australia folks my name is "Bubba" I am your security officer today.
GET OVER HERE!!!!
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OK, screening is inconsistant, over-zealous, and at some special times inappropriate. But PILOT screening must consider the opportunity for imposters ... this is not fiction fantasy land but real history. A couple of badly-intentioned men in uniform and flight bags with boarding passes issued c/- ABC TV's Chaser, you get the picture.
At least a couple of you did earlier in this thread.
At least a couple of you did earlier in this thread.
Nunc est bibendum
I'm yet to meet a QF driver who refuses screening point blank. I've met a few who've asked to be screened privately or more appropriately but blanket refusal. There is more to this than meets the eye and perhaps we should wait for it to all come out in the wash.
As for the success or otherwise of screening, I support doing it but I don't believe for a second that it's fool proof or has the ability to block 'weapons' or DGs from getting on board. I know that because I've been a screener- albeit a long, long time ago. The assessment as to the cognitive skills of most (but not all) screeners is correct. A lot of screeners are that because they can't get another job elsewhere. I lasted just three months before I went hunting for a better job elsewhere. Found it and started within four days.
As for the success or otherwise of screening, I support doing it but I don't believe for a second that it's fool proof or has the ability to block 'weapons' or DGs from getting on board. I know that because I've been a screener- albeit a long, long time ago. The assessment as to the cognitive skills of most (but not all) screeners is correct. A lot of screeners are that because they can't get another job elsewhere. I lasted just three months before I went hunting for a better job elsewhere. Found it and started within four days.
Duff Man
I sort of agree.
I am sure thats exactly how a DOTARs Bureaucrat does see it.
Surely there are smarter less offensive ways of getting the job done and more efficiently.
I can, as a pilot get access to my aircraft before security screening as I said above. If I can, so can a terrorist dressed up as a pilot. So Security screening pilots has solved NOTHING.
How about they actually check the vailidty of our ASIC, bit like customs do a passport, that will offer a lot more info then checking some ones bloody shoes.
All they acheive is a terrorist with nothing in his/her shoes having access to the aircraft before passeners, then he has access to all items onboard. Hmmmm Good thinking.
There are so many holes in the current system I don't know were to start criticicing it!
But, if you beleiev that checking the crew and making them take their shoes off helps, well I hope your right.
I sort of agree.
I am sure thats exactly how a DOTARs Bureaucrat does see it.
Surely there are smarter less offensive ways of getting the job done and more efficiently.
I can, as a pilot get access to my aircraft before security screening as I said above. If I can, so can a terrorist dressed up as a pilot. So Security screening pilots has solved NOTHING.
How about they actually check the vailidty of our ASIC, bit like customs do a passport, that will offer a lot more info then checking some ones bloody shoes.
All they acheive is a terrorist with nothing in his/her shoes having access to the aircraft before passeners, then he has access to all items onboard. Hmmmm Good thinking.
There are so many holes in the current system I don't know were to start criticicing it!
But, if you beleiev that checking the crew and making them take their shoes off helps, well I hope your right.
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RENURPP
There sure are better ways ... Max the Axe is pushing for intelligent screening
Call for frequent flyers to skip airport checks
There sure are better ways ... Max the Axe is pushing for intelligent screening
Call for frequent flyers to skip airport checks
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I think the issue that needs to be discussed in a more clear-eyed way is the one to which Max the Axe is alluding - targeted screening. The elephant in the room is the recognition that the vast majority of terrorist attacks including and since 9/11 have been carried out by young single Muslim males. Unfortunately, the barriers to stating this fact, and then acting on it, are so far too high for policymakers to tackle.
This point was recently made starkly by Lord Stevens, a former Commissioner of the London Met:
Like all such points, it's perhaps made in an over simplistic way in order to be suitable for mass media consumption - but the theory behind it deserves rational debate. Granted, it would need to be very carefully applied - the "shoe bomber" Richard Reid did not look like the archetypal terrorist, so an overly specific approach might have missed him - but surely the resources being invested in security could be better applied than in the blanket fashion we currently see?
Under such a scheme, Dutch Roll's elderly dad, or two uniformed, English speaking, ASIC carrying pilots bound for an empty cockpit might merit less scrutiny than myself - a younger male usually travelling by myself. I for one would be prepared to accept a little more personalised attention if I thought that the results were likely to be better for everyone.
A corollary to that is that there would be a lot less emphasis on things and a lot more emphasis on people. Rather than searching everybody's bag for a gel filled bra or a tube of face cream, we should be looking at who is coming through security and then work out whether they merit a closer search. This is starting to be recognised, even in the paranoid US, with less focus on knitting needles carried by grandmothers, and more focus on younger people with big backpacks. This seems to me to make perfect sense...
But who's prepared to say this and then implement it? No-one, I'm afraid.
This point was recently made starkly by Lord Stevens, a former Commissioner of the London Met:
The furor began on Sunday when Lord Stevens, a former Metropolitan Police commissioner, endorsed the approach in a commentary in News of the World.
Criticizing the rigorous checks imposed on all passengers now — with a large percentage still being searched by hand, in addition to the usual checks — Lord Stevens said that he was a “white 62-year-old, 6-foot 4-inch suit-wearing ex-cop” who did not fit the profile of a suicide bomber.
But, he said, he and others were still subject to strict screening rules that slowed the process and wasted resources. “The truth is, Islamic terrorism in the West has universally been carried out by young Muslim men, usually of ethnic appearance, almost always traveling alone or in very small groups,” he wrote.
Criticizing the rigorous checks imposed on all passengers now — with a large percentage still being searched by hand, in addition to the usual checks — Lord Stevens said that he was a “white 62-year-old, 6-foot 4-inch suit-wearing ex-cop” who did not fit the profile of a suicide bomber.
But, he said, he and others were still subject to strict screening rules that slowed the process and wasted resources. “The truth is, Islamic terrorism in the West has universally been carried out by young Muslim men, usually of ethnic appearance, almost always traveling alone or in very small groups,” he wrote.
Under such a scheme, Dutch Roll's elderly dad, or two uniformed, English speaking, ASIC carrying pilots bound for an empty cockpit might merit less scrutiny than myself - a younger male usually travelling by myself. I for one would be prepared to accept a little more personalised attention if I thought that the results were likely to be better for everyone.
A corollary to that is that there would be a lot less emphasis on things and a lot more emphasis on people. Rather than searching everybody's bag for a gel filled bra or a tube of face cream, we should be looking at who is coming through security and then work out whether they merit a closer search. This is starting to be recognised, even in the paranoid US, with less focus on knitting needles carried by grandmothers, and more focus on younger people with big backpacks. This seems to me to make perfect sense...
But who's prepared to say this and then implement it? No-one, I'm afraid.
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A lot of this debate is very academic but the bottom line is...
What is the problem with taking your shoes off???
It is not as is the pilots were asked for an internal exam...
The next thing is that some techies will argue that they don't need to carry ID's because they are pilots and no pilot would ever do any thing wrong...
If the media report is correct and that is a big IF because we all know how media reports can distort or bend the truth then why all the fuss with this issue.
What is the problem with taking your shoes off???
It is not as is the pilots were asked for an internal exam...
The next thing is that some techies will argue that they don't need to carry ID's because they are pilots and no pilot would ever do any thing wrong...
If the media report is correct and that is a big IF because we all know how media reports can distort or bend the truth then why all the fuss with this issue.
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As I tried to highlight earlier, if a certain type of person is allowed to have a lesser degree of potential weapon detection screening than another type of person, that person will be targeted by the terrorist as an easier way to get their weapons into the sterile area.
lowerlobe
Well whats wrong with having to show ID before you order fish and chips, carry an your passport with you at the beach. Let the tax man into your home office and have every transaction you ever made available on line including cash transactions, he should know about them shouldn't he.
How about if Dept of motor transport, maybe we should all have to go via a checking station every day we drive just to make sure our tyres are Ok and that our brake lights etc work!
There is nothing wrong with taking your shoes off un less your feet stink! But it doesn't prove anything its just a bloody hindrince. I do it with a smile and say helo to the dopey buggers on the other side. They are just doing a job, a job I reckon is stupid, but they are happy so, good on them.
Well whats wrong with having to show ID before you order fish and chips, carry an your passport with you at the beach. Let the tax man into your home office and have every transaction you ever made available on line including cash transactions, he should know about them shouldn't he.
How about if Dept of motor transport, maybe we should all have to go via a checking station every day we drive just to make sure our tyres are Ok and that our brake lights etc work!
There is nothing wrong with taking your shoes off un less your feet stink! But it doesn't prove anything its just a bloody hindrince. I do it with a smile and say helo to the dopey buggers on the other side. They are just doing a job, a job I reckon is stupid, but they are happy so, good on them.
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DutchRoll,
Yes the story about your old man is appaling, and the security people involved in that instance should be sacked.
I am sure there are a million other 'passenger stories' similar or worse than that - unfortunately.
The discussion here involves aircrew and screening. I think think the mojority of the screening people are just doing their job. I agree some of them have a chip on their shoulder about something - but so do lots of pilots. Refusing to take your shoes off, or whatever, is just raising your blood pressure, and is only doing yourself harm.
Take your shoes off, move through, and put them back on again. How hard is that really?
Yes the story about your old man is appaling, and the security people involved in that instance should be sacked.
I am sure there are a million other 'passenger stories' similar or worse than that - unfortunately.
The discussion here involves aircrew and screening. I think think the mojority of the screening people are just doing their job. I agree some of them have a chip on their shoulder about something - but so do lots of pilots. Refusing to take your shoes off, or whatever, is just raising your blood pressure, and is only doing yourself harm.
Take your shoes off, move through, and put them back on again. How hard is that really?
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On the face of it, surrendering to 'security checks' is not such a great deal.
On a broader scale, the surrender of personal freedom and privacy by default, is being done WILLINGLY by the population in the interest of the never ending 'War On Terror'.
Hypnotised and hysterical, that's all.
PS Good on the QF drivers for trying to keep some of their dignity.
On a broader scale, the surrender of personal freedom and privacy by default, is being done WILLINGLY by the population in the interest of the never ending 'War On Terror'.
Hypnotised and hysterical, that's all.
PS Good on the QF drivers for trying to keep some of their dignity.
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I'd put some mitigating background info on the Manila event here. However, sorry, upon reflection, I'll delete it and instead the info to AIPA and Flight Ops, where it will better support the crew. Sorry about that, folks.
Last edited by Jay Arr; 15th Sep 2006 at 05:41.
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Tolerance is a drug, and too much of any drug will kill you. I for one am fed up with over zealous twits that weild false authority and have no compassion, nor have the intellect to realise that a bit of common sense goes a long way.
Confrontation and conflict are also "drugs" that produce the adrenaline that some egos crave. Without knowing the details of this circumstance, one other way of dealing with this type of request is to cheerfully comply and then do something logical, in concert with those who can modify a faulty system, to effect a better outcome for all concerned.
However, to practice what I preach - Pete Conrad I take your point.
However, to practice what I preach - Pete Conrad I take your point.