Aircraft Security Works: Pilot Locked out of Cockpit In Flight
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Straya
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aircraft Security Works: Pilot Locked out of Cockpit In Flight
Pilot Locked Out Of Cockpit
A bizarre incident aboard an Air Canada Jazz flight last week has raised questions about just how terror-proof those new bullet-proof (and apparently pilot-proof) cockpit doors are. With 30 minutes left in the flight from Ottawa to Winnipeg, the captain left the cockpit to use the washroom in the rear of the CRJ-100. When he got back, the door lock had apparently malfunctioned and he was unable to get back to his post. Now, the first officer was up front and fully capable of landing the plane but the captain apparently insisted on being in his seat. In front of 50 passengers, he and the cabin crew popped the hinges on the door. It's not known if the door was left that way for the remainder of the flight but the relative ease with which the door was removed raised questions about the practical security of the flight crew. The Toronto Star quoted Peter St. John, an anti-terrorism lecturer at the University of Manitoba, as saying the incident sends a message to terrorists that getting into the cockpit is "fairly easy to do." Air Canada Jazz spokeswoman Manon Stuart said the aircraft crew responded appropriately. "We investigated the incident, and the crew followed standard operational procedures," she was quoted as saying. "At no time was the safety or security of passengers compromised."
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#193112
Another giggle for OBL and his mates.
[EDIT: Oops - similar thread already]
A bizarre incident aboard an Air Canada Jazz flight last week has raised questions about just how terror-proof those new bullet-proof (and apparently pilot-proof) cockpit doors are. With 30 minutes left in the flight from Ottawa to Winnipeg, the captain left the cockpit to use the washroom in the rear of the CRJ-100. When he got back, the door lock had apparently malfunctioned and he was unable to get back to his post. Now, the first officer was up front and fully capable of landing the plane but the captain apparently insisted on being in his seat. In front of 50 passengers, he and the cabin crew popped the hinges on the door. It's not known if the door was left that way for the remainder of the flight but the relative ease with which the door was removed raised questions about the practical security of the flight crew. The Toronto Star quoted Peter St. John, an anti-terrorism lecturer at the University of Manitoba, as saying the incident sends a message to terrorists that getting into the cockpit is "fairly easy to do." Air Canada Jazz spokeswoman Manon Stuart said the aircraft crew responded appropriately. "We investigated the incident, and the crew followed standard operational procedures," she was quoted as saying. "At no time was the safety or security of passengers compromised."
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#193112
Another giggle for OBL and his mates.
[EDIT: Oops - similar thread already]
Last edited by Shitsu_Tonka; 6th Sep 2006 at 06:54. Reason: Similar Thread Already Exists
Join Date: May 2001
Location: HK
Age: 49
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am very familiar with the door on the CRJ and the crew handled it correctly. Let's just say that the airline has procedures in place for this sort of thing. Saying any more about it on a public forum is only helping the terrorists.
BBB
BBB
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the world is not enough
lets believe the media and live in a constant state of fear. maybe if we stop talking terrorism all the time people will get on with their lives remember the 70s hijacking every other week but the punters still flew .
i dont know the crj door at all but i agree dont post access isues on a public forum let the pilots fly the crew s3erve the engineers maintain the baggage guys/girls chuck and the cattle complain
i dont know the crj door at all but i agree dont post access isues on a public forum let the pilots fly the crew s3erve the engineers maintain the baggage guys/girls chuck and the cattle complain
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...and thats precisely why I carry a gun in the cockpit(FFDO)....some clown walks in who,s not invited.....or manages to get in uninvited......
because of clowns that post security sensitive info that we are all supposed to keep quiet ,....it,s obvious that will never happen ....so that Govt issued firearm(cant tell you what type,top secret)comes in handy against would-be naughty people
because of clowns that post security sensitive info that we are all supposed to keep quiet ,....it,s obvious that will never happen ....so that Govt issued firearm(cant tell you what type,top secret)comes in handy against would-be naughty people
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Straya
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prediction: More pilots will shoot themselves or their crew accidentally with their top secret handguns than pilots will shoot terrorists.
And that will be considered safer by the idiots who call themselves Homeland Security. (I think the Nazi's called the same organisation the SS didn't they?)
And that will be considered safer by the idiots who call themselves Homeland Security. (I think the Nazi's called the same organisation the SS didn't they?)
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tonka...it hasnt happened yet...if you dont think its a credible threat you are living in a dream world and have no idea what you are talking about....not sure what you do all day,but I fly into the largest Airports in the world....there are plenty who want to do harm.
You are obviously against this gun thing,,,,myself included...once.....so instead of knocking it and not being open to the fact that it might help ,,like yourself...I enrolled in the training with the option of pulling out....the training is excellent,the rules of engagement spelled out clearly......is there a chance for s mishap?..for sure,...is the deterrant value worth it?... for sure ....
Not sure what type of cocpit you spend your days in,but in mine,as the "inflight security co-ordinator"my job is to defend the cockpit(and maybe your wife and kids)at all costs......youll think 2x walking into this cockpit when you not supposed too....****ty situatuion we are in,but thats the world we seem to live in these days....not my choice for sure...PB
You are obviously against this gun thing,,,,myself included...once.....so instead of knocking it and not being open to the fact that it might help ,,like yourself...I enrolled in the training with the option of pulling out....the training is excellent,the rules of engagement spelled out clearly......is there a chance for s mishap?..for sure,...is the deterrant value worth it?... for sure ....
Not sure what type of cocpit you spend your days in,but in mine,as the "inflight security co-ordinator"my job is to defend the cockpit(and maybe your wife and kids)at all costs......youll think 2x walking into this cockpit when you not supposed too....****ty situatuion we are in,but thats the world we seem to live in these days....not my choice for sure...PB
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
guns and aircraft
i dont care if your john wayne or a competent trained sas soldier. nobody has a rite to take a firearm on board .i know i will get posted with homeland security and air marshals etc but dont pilots-pilot aircraft?
for all those so called heros at fl40 be wary you would do more damage than good.how many have used the crash axe or batton in anger ?
live hard and strong and forget the american institution of the rite to bare arms its one sentence taken completely out of context,for a nation of communism of the so called land of the free .let the government scare you into a false sense of security and watch the dollars fill the coffers.
enough of my rant fly staright and level.
for all those so called heros at fl40 be wary you would do more damage than good.how many have used the crash axe or batton in anger ?
live hard and strong and forget the american institution of the rite to bare arms its one sentence taken completely out of context,for a nation of communism of the so called land of the free .let the government scare you into a false sense of security and watch the dollars fill the coffers.
enough of my rant fly staright and level.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Straya
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not going to get in to a pissing contest with you and whose airport is largest.
Frankly I would rather share the cockpit with someone who is focussed on being the pilot, rather than focussed on being a chocolate soldier of fortune.
Frankly I would rather share the cockpit with someone who is focussed on being the pilot, rather than focussed on being a chocolate soldier of fortune.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Frankly I would rather share the cockpit with someone who is focussed on being the pilot, rather than focussed on being a chocolate soldier of fortune.
Dont Try and compare the situation in a comparative back water like Oz with the US, UK or anywhere else for that matter.
Its not about agreeing or disagreeing with PB's point of view, its about horses for courses...nothing more.
Next thing ****su/Rod your gonna say its all a big conspiracy thats designed to control us
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Straya
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its all a big conspiracy thats designed to control us.
Happy?
If you apply your principles arguing in favour of arming the crew of aircraft, does it follow that school bus drivers, fast-food restaurant cashiers, high-school security guards etc.etc. are also justified in being armed? Where does it end?
If that is the case, I am happy to be living in what you call a backwater. Despite the efforts of our complicit suck-hole government, we have not yet created the environment where we have shot innocent bystanders on subway trains, and repatriated 'terror suspects' to third party countries for interrogation.
I don't think we have spent anywhere near $US 400Bn failing to catch OBL and defeat the war on terror either.
Perhaps you are one of the (now) 30% of Americans who think that the War on Terror is a successful US policy?
Of course you will know from history where this is all leading - at the end of every war, the parties involved eventually return to dialogue, and then diplomacy. It is cheaper - economically and in humanitarian terms. Pity they didn't consider that before blundering in to Iraq and spending their (your) 400 Billion inspring a whole new army of terrorists - instead of finding the original comparitvely few, who had no connection with Iraq to start with.
Happy?
If you apply your principles arguing in favour of arming the crew of aircraft, does it follow that school bus drivers, fast-food restaurant cashiers, high-school security guards etc.etc. are also justified in being armed? Where does it end?
If that is the case, I am happy to be living in what you call a backwater. Despite the efforts of our complicit suck-hole government, we have not yet created the environment where we have shot innocent bystanders on subway trains, and repatriated 'terror suspects' to third party countries for interrogation.
I don't think we have spent anywhere near $US 400Bn failing to catch OBL and defeat the war on terror either.
Perhaps you are one of the (now) 30% of Americans who think that the War on Terror is a successful US policy?
Of course you will know from history where this is all leading - at the end of every war, the parties involved eventually return to dialogue, and then diplomacy. It is cheaper - economically and in humanitarian terms. Pity they didn't consider that before blundering in to Iraq and spending their (your) 400 Billion inspring a whole new army of terrorists - instead of finding the original comparitvely few, who had no connection with Iraq to start with.
Last edited by Shitsu_Tonka; 8th Sep 2006 at 06:35.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For you clowns that have this is a "john wayne sagarso".pull your bloody heads in....this has nothing to do with that attitude,and it is not one that I subcribe too......and as for flying the A/C,thats my sole purpose(not any more)...
This job,flying aircraft ,has now become more than flying Aircraft,and the sooner you wake up to that fact the better.We as pilots have been loaded to the hilt with responsibiltiy as part of our duties in doing this job,and that is a fact.....between PIC responsibilites,inflight security co-ordinator,company liasion officer,and many others duties.....this is now the situation we find ourselves in....you either accept it or leave it.
We have at our hands and disposal many avenues and "tools" of the trade,the use of pilot firearms for cockpit security(whether you agree or not) is one of them,it does not detract from my ability to fly the A/C and it does not make want to put on a 10 gallon hat....get real boys
As security procedures change(usually because of previous cockups) we are going to be subject to more scrutiny and the public will demand better protection,whether that be from the govt,airlines and flight crews,,...your guess is as good as mine......****s, you have a good point about,will it get to buses,trains etc ....mate its already there...get out of town once in a while mate,open your eyes a little.
Do I like the idea of armed pilots,...Faaaaaaaaaaaaark NO!!!!!!.....is it bull****e that pilots get locked out of their cockpits..... yes.....get used to the fact we are now in a period of time where things and attitudes(in the airlines) are rapidly changing,most of us obviously dont like it.......
I,m trying to be pro-active and part of (hopefully) the (right) solution.....maybe you should too........PB
ST....by the way,I,m not one of the 30% mate....I,m as against the whole thing as you are...not eveybody sucks his d--k
This job,flying aircraft ,has now become more than flying Aircraft,and the sooner you wake up to that fact the better.We as pilots have been loaded to the hilt with responsibiltiy as part of our duties in doing this job,and that is a fact.....between PIC responsibilites,inflight security co-ordinator,company liasion officer,and many others duties.....this is now the situation we find ourselves in....you either accept it or leave it.
We have at our hands and disposal many avenues and "tools" of the trade,the use of pilot firearms for cockpit security(whether you agree or not) is one of them,it does not detract from my ability to fly the A/C and it does not make want to put on a 10 gallon hat....get real boys
As security procedures change(usually because of previous cockups) we are going to be subject to more scrutiny and the public will demand better protection,whether that be from the govt,airlines and flight crews,,...your guess is as good as mine......****s, you have a good point about,will it get to buses,trains etc ....mate its already there...get out of town once in a while mate,open your eyes a little.
Do I like the idea of armed pilots,...Faaaaaaaaaaaaark NO!!!!!!.....is it bull****e that pilots get locked out of their cockpits..... yes.....get used to the fact we are now in a period of time where things and attitudes(in the airlines) are rapidly changing,most of us obviously dont like it.......
I,m trying to be pro-active and part of (hopefully) the (right) solution.....maybe you should too........PB
ST....by the way,I,m not one of the 30% mate....I,m as against the whole thing as you are...not eveybody sucks his d--k
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd just love to see video of a pilot and amateur pistol-shooter (sorry, with a minimal amount of training), strapped firmly by his 5 point harness into his largish, fairly rigid seat 18 inches from the instrument panel, whip his firearm out and successfully shoot-to-kill on the first shot (because that's about all the time he'd have) a surprise intruder attacking him from behind.
It's a wonderful theory. But if it makes you feel safer......
I'm speaking as someone who has spent a long time as a professional military and airline pilot, and almost as many years trained to use a semi-automatic pistol (we used to joke that you were more likely to hit the enemy by throwing it at him). Have to agree with ****su. If you want your gun like Linus wants his security blanket, that's great, but introducing them into the cockpit has created additional risks to supposedly reduce others (and if the bad guy gets hold of it while he's still alive however unlikely one might think that is, it's all over red rover).
It's a wonderful theory. But if it makes you feel safer......
I'm speaking as someone who has spent a long time as a professional military and airline pilot, and almost as many years trained to use a semi-automatic pistol (we used to joke that you were more likely to hit the enemy by throwing it at him). Have to agree with ****su. If you want your gun like Linus wants his security blanket, that's great, but introducing them into the cockpit has created additional risks to supposedly reduce others (and if the bad guy gets hold of it while he's still alive however unlikely one might think that is, it's all over red rover).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Straya
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/193000-1.html
(Read the full article - it's pretty funny)
(Read the full article - it's pretty funny)
EXTRACT:Pistol Packing Pilots Provide Piracy Prevention
I began my post 9/11 Odyssey by being against arming pilots. What good would it do, I thought, to arm guys who aren't allowed to open a barricaded cockpit door to shoot anybody? Plus, when they did shoot, they'd be firing into a crowd of First Class passengers. Talk about lawsuit bait ...
I think I was wrong. For some reason, potential hijackers think that being shot by a small caliber weapon is far deadlier and painful than having their arms cut off with a 50 pound, razor-sharp, crash axe. Go figure. They routinely cut helpless people's heads off with sharp implements but don't see the danger for themselves.
I always saw the crash axe as a better close-in defensive weapon, but I'm willing to admit that I should probably be packing. The trouble is that I'm probably not qualified for the program. With all the background checks and whatnot they do before allowing you to begin training, I'm sure I'd fail somewhere along the line before I fired my first training shot.
I've never been very good at shooting things, anyway. Rabid raccoons on my farm have no fear of me; even at point blank range I manage to miss them. If I were to try and shoot an evildoer, I'd probably hit the only air marshal on board by mistake.
This isn't to say that all of the armed pilots out there aren't doing a hell of a job. Using reverse logic, we can say that their record is perfect. The lack of a traditional hijacking proves that the armed pilot program works in the same way that saying the lack of attacks by aliens in flying saucers proves that NORAD is doing their job.
I began my post 9/11 Odyssey by being against arming pilots. What good would it do, I thought, to arm guys who aren't allowed to open a barricaded cockpit door to shoot anybody? Plus, when they did shoot, they'd be firing into a crowd of First Class passengers. Talk about lawsuit bait ...
I think I was wrong. For some reason, potential hijackers think that being shot by a small caliber weapon is far deadlier and painful than having their arms cut off with a 50 pound, razor-sharp, crash axe. Go figure. They routinely cut helpless people's heads off with sharp implements but don't see the danger for themselves.
I always saw the crash axe as a better close-in defensive weapon, but I'm willing to admit that I should probably be packing. The trouble is that I'm probably not qualified for the program. With all the background checks and whatnot they do before allowing you to begin training, I'm sure I'd fail somewhere along the line before I fired my first training shot.
I've never been very good at shooting things, anyway. Rabid raccoons on my farm have no fear of me; even at point blank range I manage to miss them. If I were to try and shoot an evildoer, I'd probably hit the only air marshal on board by mistake.
This isn't to say that all of the armed pilots out there aren't doing a hell of a job. Using reverse logic, we can say that their record is perfect. The lack of a traditional hijacking proves that the armed pilot program works in the same way that saying the lack of attacks by aliens in flying saucers proves that NORAD is doing their job.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
****S/dutch…yeah mate, a funny article indeed, nice to see a bit of humour thrown into the fray(petey,give your boyfriend a squeeze for me will ya)……sort of hard to argue with your posts as I agree with most of what has been said,. I take offence dutch that this is a thumb sucking, blanket carrying deal, and then ridicule the people who are out there doing a service by comparing it with aliens….aliens didn’t take down the twin towers mate…bull****e really on your part.
For those of you who disagree with firearms in the cockpit,no malice,(except against petey)but let me explain my position, It is a position that only as a last resort, and only a last resort, should a firearm be used.Dutch says” they’ll jump you”,hey dutch if you can’t hear the bastards taking off the door, then get another hearing doctor.
If we were able to ask the 911 pilots and even the Fedex pilots who had to fight off an attacker, whether a firearm in the cockpit would have helped,I,m certain you would have a few takers…hindsight,20/20 ..yeah I know.
Understand that the only reason I’m in this programme is to protect an industry that is very close to all of us. My intent is for the safety and security of my flight, nothing more, nothing less, and for those of you wanting to take the piss out of us who are will ing to put our lives on the line is misdirected.
The only way the system will work is if we participate, and the day they tell me we have a system in place where firearms are no longer required, Ill be the first to hand it in. I ask you this,. the cockpit gets breached, tell me your going to sit there like a spare prick at a party and do nothing…hang on we’ve got a crash axe, fire extinguisher and fists….maybe we can talk about it,…yeah right!!…..have you forgotten flight crews had their throats cut????
I don’t sit there cleaning my firearm in flight, don’t even touch it, just like I don’t touch the crash axe or the fire ext,or the flares, or make the coat hangers into stabbing devices……
A post mentioned…”you don’t have the right to carry a firearm in the cockpit”..yeah well the people who died in those A/C didn’t get any rights ethier,There are those who say we are not qualified, that maybe so, but the # of Air Marshals is decreasing, and they are asking us to step fwd and offer our services,I,m prepared to do that. This whole programme could be the biggest cockup yet, and Ill eat humble pie if it is, but as of yet it hasn’t, and because we pilots are participating it is becoming a better system.
Dutch says this is great stuff for lawsuits, you know what dutch ,..if a firearm saves the day, I won’t give a ****e about lawsuits, because at least they’ll be on the ground to file a lawsuit…..Ill go back to shearing sheep!!
My only intent in this firearm issue is to have some ability, as a last line of defence,to maintain the security of the cockpit, I don t believe that is out of order…I was flying from LAS-JFK on 9/11,when the attacks occurred, we diverted in to Detroit, ,my point???.....you never forget those moments or feelings, and the desire I have is to stop it from happening to me, I don’t think that’s an unfair or misdirected reason….each to his own…...PB
For those of you who disagree with firearms in the cockpit,no malice,(except against petey)but let me explain my position, It is a position that only as a last resort, and only a last resort, should a firearm be used.Dutch says” they’ll jump you”,hey dutch if you can’t hear the bastards taking off the door, then get another hearing doctor.
If we were able to ask the 911 pilots and even the Fedex pilots who had to fight off an attacker, whether a firearm in the cockpit would have helped,I,m certain you would have a few takers…hindsight,20/20 ..yeah I know.
Understand that the only reason I’m in this programme is to protect an industry that is very close to all of us. My intent is for the safety and security of my flight, nothing more, nothing less, and for those of you wanting to take the piss out of us who are will ing to put our lives on the line is misdirected.
The only way the system will work is if we participate, and the day they tell me we have a system in place where firearms are no longer required, Ill be the first to hand it in. I ask you this,. the cockpit gets breached, tell me your going to sit there like a spare prick at a party and do nothing…hang on we’ve got a crash axe, fire extinguisher and fists….maybe we can talk about it,…yeah right!!…..have you forgotten flight crews had their throats cut????
I don’t sit there cleaning my firearm in flight, don’t even touch it, just like I don’t touch the crash axe or the fire ext,or the flares, or make the coat hangers into stabbing devices……
A post mentioned…”you don’t have the right to carry a firearm in the cockpit”..yeah well the people who died in those A/C didn’t get any rights ethier,There are those who say we are not qualified, that maybe so, but the # of Air Marshals is decreasing, and they are asking us to step fwd and offer our services,I,m prepared to do that. This whole programme could be the biggest cockup yet, and Ill eat humble pie if it is, but as of yet it hasn’t, and because we pilots are participating it is becoming a better system.
Dutch says this is great stuff for lawsuits, you know what dutch ,..if a firearm saves the day, I won’t give a ****e about lawsuits, because at least they’ll be on the ground to file a lawsuit…..Ill go back to shearing sheep!!
My only intent in this firearm issue is to have some ability, as a last line of defence,to maintain the security of the cockpit, I don t believe that is out of order…I was flying from LAS-JFK on 9/11,when the attacks occurred, we diverted in to Detroit, ,my point???.....you never forget those moments or feelings, and the desire I have is to stop it from happening to me, I don’t think that’s an unfair or misdirected reason….each to his own…...PB
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dunnunda & Godzone
Age: 74
Posts: 4,275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PB thanks for a well reasoned responce...to those feeling a little heated about the issues of armed pilots I suggest you keep your answers in a similar vien...in fact how about we get back on topic?
